got a letter from cps, now what? - Page 3

[Tumble Bumbles]

Thanks so much :) That sounds like a good plan.

[Jynuine]

Here is a fantastic article on a very SIMILAR issue to mine which did not result to, in my case, as severe a consequence. It's called Nothing to Hide and it's a PDF of an article this woman wrote about how a therapist who was new to the company helping her and her autistic son led a battle via CPS on their life, and what to do and not do when CPS contacts you.

I'll write what she has in here too:

• Do not invite CPS workers into your home without a warrant.
• A child with special needs counts against the parents the moment the report is taken.
• Evidence collected during an investigation consists of observations and interviews, subject to whatever biases the CPS worker holds.
• In some states, little to no effort is make to corroborate these observations.
• Refusing entry to a CPS worker will limit the scope of an investigation and protect your family from intrusion.
• Other Avenues of investigation may include speaking with your children's teachers and therapists.
• If the CPS worker feels there are exigent circumstances, they will speak with your child at school.
• Otherwise CPS must obtain written consent from a guardian.
• Do NOT sign any legal documents without legal counsel.
• When CPS workers cannot make their case in court, they trick parents into signing a "voluntary service agreement"- essentially an admission of guilt.
• By signing this you relinquish your right to trial.
• If you do no cooperate, they can take you to court and win their case. Your child becomes a ward of the state even if the child stays in your home.
• Contact legal counsel early to determine what services they can provide at various stages of the investigation.
• Request as much information concerning the investigation as possible. Expect delays in recieving this information.
• Keep your own records of the investigation, on tape if possible.
• If CPS recommends counseling, pick up your own provider. Recommended providers are often predisposed to support CPS; goals.
• If you have a meeting with CPS, invite as many witnesses as possible. Include, friends, family, teachers, and other professionals.
• Being investigated does not make you a bad parent, nor does it mean you're guilty.

[Irishmommy]

Coming from New Posts. I don't know where the OP is, I forgot to look, but in Canada, CAS workers don't need warrants to come into your home, or to speak with your children.

[SilverSage]

I'm just going to reiterate to get a lawyer. You absolutely HAVE to know the laws and your rights IN YOUR STATE! For instance, in the state we came from, true, you didn't have to let them in without a warrant, but they could take your children without one. Really, they could. There had to be a court hearing within 48 hours (business days). If it was determined that there was insufficient cause for them to be removed, you got them back, but almost always with conditions. Usually those involved supervision by the local CPS office and such. We can all tell you all sorts of things, but you have to know your state laws. Period.

[elevena true]

         oh, lady. what a whammy to face when you should be able to be soaking up your little baby. i saw that you have other kids too, are homeschooling, etc. do you have any help? what friends can come over and help with your deep cleaning? who can come and cook you dinner (you should be having meals brought for you regardless of dhs) so you can sit and relax with your baby? or take a long walk. sit under a tree. enjoy that baby and the next phase of your family. this is such a tiny moment, you need to be nourished.

         as far as dhs, do contact them. be in control of that. i think a letter is the best way to go, if you are able to get a lawyer, do so. otherwise, write a professional letter stating a good time to meet them in their office, or a time for a phone date (even better, limiting your physical proximity). if it is a letter from you, type it up in a business format. do this right away, and don't forget to mention when you end up talking to them that you just had a baby. like, just over a week ago. put the meeting off for as long as you can.

         there is a lot of good advice and experience here already, i just implore you to make the power move now, and not to just sit on the letter. that is a sure way to let them just drop by. i wish you sweet, relaxing time with your family and especially that new baby.

    happy birth, to you both.

[lightinmyhands]

I too once called CPS locally for molestation concerns about a child that I knew and they would not investigate, nor did they even show up at this person's home.  It is sickening that they are bothering you about birthing when kids can get molested and there must be some heavy burden of proof to protect them.  Ugggh.... It's even more sickening that busybody's would go and intrude on someone's sacred space like that.  I wish you the best of luck.... and agree that you should be informed of your legal rights and remain totally compliant with them.  If you don't have funds for a lawyer consult...find them somehow.  Please keep us posted.  My heart goes out to you.

Love & Light

[Luvmykiddos03]

I just responded, but lost everything.    Stinks when that happens.
 

Originally Posted by Jynuine 

• If you have a meeting with CPS, invite as many witnesses as possible. Include, friends, family, teachers, and other professionals.

  Yes, yes, yes!  Just be mindful of who it is you're asking to be present and that they also understand their ONLY job is to be present.

SilverSage, I agree that one should contact a lawyer, but your lawyer is ONLY as good as you force him to be, usually.  Unless you got big bucks to shell out, the average lawyer is not going to work as hard as you would on your case.  Also, your lawyer may turn out to be detrimental to your case.  How would you know?

You only know the answer to that if you are armed with knowledge!  What all these ladies are saying here is good to just read, if for no other reason, to hear the vast opinions that are out there.  Experiences are very helpful, but the best knowledge is to have insight into how the process works!

If your lawyer tells you to just sign the documents they present to you and attend the various classes you're being told to attend, depending on where you are in the game, you may need to fire him!  How would you know if you should do that if you don't understand the process?

Also, how can you make your lawyer work FOR you and not against you if you don't know that process?  You won't know the right questions to ask and the proper procedures to take next.

CPS purposely makes it a puzzle.  Several won't tell you about that 48 hour court hearing and so you have to know to ask about it or go straight to the courthouse to find out!  When parents unwittingly miss this meeting, it often traps them into the Judge's recommendation for the child's temporary removal and the game really begins to fight for your children.  If you know to attend this meeting and are there, it will be harder for a Judge to keep your children if there isn't substantial evidence to do so.

What you don't know WILL HURT YOU.  You don't fear what you don't know, so many parents make innocent "mistakes" that cost them dearly!  On the other hand, knowledge can calm your fears and give you confidence to move forward!

So while yes, one should get a lawyer, you can do without one if you aren't armed with knowledge, because they aren't always helpful if you aren't making them work for you.  A good lawyer only provides an added layer of protection.  Notice...a GOOD lawyer.  A bad one will actually hurt you worse than if you had gone solo.  But how would you know if you did not have the proper knowledge beforehand?

As for the emergency removal statue, it does vary from state to state on that process.  However, the burden of proof is STILL on the social worker.  Also, all the emergency removal statues I've seen have said the social worker must make every effort to find a suitable relative or friend the child can stay with.  Foster parents, group home, or whatever else should be the last resort.  I, personally, know of how this isn't true, but also personally know of how this IS true.  So it depends on the social worker.

Also, the emergency removal is NOT always in the best interest of the social worker.  So unless you have a vindictive social worker, they usually don't pursue this option unless necessary.

I know about the emergency removal statue very well, because that happened to me TWICE growing up.  My parents had a good lawyer and the first time I was removed, the Judge did not have substantial evidence and the social worker could not provide the burden of proof needed, so I was returned at the 14 day hearing.  On the other hand, the second time I was taken, there was substantial evidence.  I was taken via emergency removal statue and was only briefly returned after a couple years under very sad circumstances.  Then I returned and remained in foster care until I aged out.  I do want to note, however, that the second time, the police and social workers broke SEVERAL laws, including kidnapping!  Yes, I was kidnapped.  It was NOT lawful for them to do, but they did!  It's VERY hard to explain how that was true, unless I explain everything.  But trust me, I was kidnapped, among other laws that were broken against my parents wishes!

I'm not trying to sound like I know it all, because I don't.  I'm not a mini-lawyer, but unless a lawyer has gone through it or has great compassion for people in this situation, you are just another paycheck.  You have to defend yourself, period.  No one else will help you like you'll help yourself.  You have the greatest interest in your children!  You have the responsibility to protect your children, not your lawyer.  So you have to get yourself off your feet and gain knowledge!  Knowledge is power!  Be careful how you use it, but used wisely, you can make the system work for you.

SilverSage, I'm not picking on you.    I just don't want anyone to think a lawyer will save the day and that a social worker is going to use the emergency avenue at whim.  Neither is usually the case.

I suggested a lawyer to the OP, to have a lawyer write the letter, because I honestly believe that's ALL that is needed.  I highly doubt this case will go any further.  Nothing illegal has happened and she has taken the baby to the doctor.  However, the social worker doesn't even need to know that.  An "anonymous" call is not sufficient evidence to go snooping further, unless you give them more information willingly.  A letter in response is really the only necessary means of communication for a person in her situation at this point.  No visit is necessary, period.  Put the burden of proof on the social worker and make them work for it!    Her desire to lay low is probably wise, but she doesn't need to feel like a trapped prisoner either if she keeps everything in writing and has minimal contact verbally.  I get the feeling the social worker really doesn't care, though, and is just doing the standard follow up that is required.

Each situation is unique.  You have to know the system to know how to best move forward in your unique situation. 

Any updates on the OP?

[Luvmykiddos03]

Originally Posted by lightinmyhands 

I too once called CPS locally for molestation concerns about a child that I knew and they would not investigate, nor did they even show up at this person's home.  It is sickening that they are bothering you about birthing when kids can get molested and there must be some heavy burden of proof to protect them.  Ugggh.... It's even more sickening that busybody's would go and intrude on someone's sacred space like that.  I wish you the best of luck.... and agree that you should be informed of your legal rights and remain totally compliant with them.  If you don't have funds for a lawyer consult...find them somehow.  Please keep us posted.  My heart goes out to you.

Love & Light

Sadly, the reason for this is that a sexually molested child is a "burden" on the system.    That is a fact!  Usually, foster parents don't want them, because there are way too many horror stories to tell from what can happen.  I don't blame them.  The foster parents who will take them, often times give them up, or are child molesters themselves.  So then they are put in group homes, where the same problems come up, and they become a burden.  Sometimes they are put in psych homes.  However, if they have become such a burden, they are often times returned home to release the system of the "filth", because they aren't worth the trouble and they certainly don't bring in the adoption funds!

Sad, isn't it?  

I don't like to bring up my past on a public forum, but lets just say, "Been there, done that".    All under the "protection" of Child PROTECTIVE Services.  

[Jynuine]

Originally Posted by elevena true 

         oh, lady. what a whammy to face when you should be able to be soaking up your little baby. i saw that you have other kids too, are homeschooling, etc. do you have any help? what friends can come over and help with your deep cleaning? who can come and cook you dinner (you should be having meals brought for you regardless of dhs) so you can sit and relax with your baby? or take a long walk. sit under a tree. enjoy that baby and the next phase of your family. this is such a tiny moment, you need to be nourished.

         as far as dhs, do contact them. be in control of that. i think a letter is the best way to go, if you are able to get a lawyer, do so. otherwise, write a professional letter stating a good time to meet them in their office, or a time for a phone date (even better, limiting your physical proximity). if it is a letter from you, type it up in a business format. do this right away, and don't forget to mention when you end up talking to them that you just had a baby. like, just over a week ago. put the meeting off for as long as you can.

         there is a lot of good advice and experience here already, i just implore you to make the power move now, and not to just sit on the letter. that is a sure way to let them just drop by. i wish you sweet, relaxing time with your family and especially that new baby.

    happy birth, to you both.

Thanks, lol- but my story was 2 years ago. :) I am pregnant with #7 now and we moved down the street a month ago to a NICE big house with over an acre of land and totally down to earth neighbors. :)

But thank you for your kind thoughts!
 

[Tumble Bumbles]

I think elevena true was referring to the OP's story...lol ... but good to hear you're doing well now Jyn.

I can't stress enough (I know I've said this like 18 times) that they cannot build a case if they have no case to build, or no opportunity to build one. Don't give them a case to build. The "case" begins by allowing them into your home without a warrant. To get a warrant there needs to be evidence/cause. Some random phone call is not cause to obtain a warrant.

Yes, emergency removals do exist but that implies they have evidence to obtain an emergency removal -- which again, begins with allowing access to your home or children. I am no fan of CPS at all, and I'm no lawyer, but I can say with 100% confidence CPS cannot storm into one's home and remove children without ever have been inside the home or have spoken to the children, and without any evidence a crime has taken place (the police can't even do this).

Always be respectful and calm, but give as little information as possible and please exercise your rights.

[SilverSage]

I agree with getting a good lawyer. You need to ask questions. If you have a good one, they know the laws and CPS knows that. You can usually find one that has a good track history in that respect with just a little asking around. Your rights are only as good as the judge decides they are, and that's where a good lawyer can help. I, too, used to believe in rights.

All I can say is that I've been a foster parent and seen the system. I've also had to deal with things on the other end. One social worker who developed a personal grudge made our life hell. They can do what they want and get away with it. They can falsify reports. The 'good ol' boy' thing IS there. Again, we were in a small town where everybody was related. Literally. I realize that most places aren't that bad and most social workers are great people. I was a foster parent for years and only had the problem with the one, it just turned into a big problem. But, yes, they did bring a cop and take our child with no prior warning, evidence, whatever. And, yes, it WAS legal in that state. Police, judges and doctors are allowed to take children at the drop of a hat there. No evidence needed. If they can't produce anything at the 48 hour hearing, theoretically, they get in trouble. The actual social worker isn't allowed to do removal, I admit, but when the social worker is married to the cop, it's the same thing. And they all stick together. Again, small town, but these things DO happen. Having a good lawyer will make them either hesitate or give it up IF they are the kind to be vindictive. It's expensive, but not as bad as losing your kids. We sold our house and borrowed from family and would do it all again in a heartbeat. What good is my debt free house without my kid?

And again, most social workers are NOT that bad! I tend to prepare for the worst possible scenario and hope for the best.

[Jynuine]

BTW- Another thread on CPS scares and delivering in a hospital I found, today.

http://www.mothering.com/community/forum/thread/1305958/if-you-are-having-a-baby-in-the-hospital-have-a-lawyer-on-call#post_16356947 via http://www.ktnv.com/story/14338042/baby

[moonfirefaery]

Call a lawyer. Know your rights. Don't seem uncooperative. Don't lie, because they can fact-check. Make sure the house is clean and well-stocked with food. You did the right thing by ordering the medical records and taking the baby to a physician. Also, be prepared to talk about your reasons for UC and explain why you feel it is safe.

[mstori880]

Thank you so much for sharing your story! I also do NOT trust CPS at all!! Yes, they help some that truly need it but I feel they harrass way too many good parents. I watched my own sisters kids be taken from her and ADOPTED OUT!!! Now, yes she was a drunk! She had a huge drinking problem and I thought about calling them on her often. One day she didn't get her son off the bus and the bus driver actually pulled to the side after the route was over and walked her son to her house to see her drunk passed out on the couch. YES, I feel this required an investigation. HOWEVER, they had her kids in foster care for 2 yrs as she jumped through every single hoop they ask her to jump through. I was driving her to every single counseling session, every single cps meeting, every visitation, ect. I was her supervised visitation person when she visited her kids. She made every effort to get treatment for her disease (alcoholism) and she was doing soooo well! Over the 2 years she had quit drinking. The kids foster parents over the 2 years had fell in love with them - especially the little girl who they had from the time she was 7 months old and didn't want to give them up. I knew  my sister was not drinking when we picked up her kids for visits. BUT the foster mom LIED about her and cps believed her lies and took her kids away perm. It was so sad after all my sister fought for. She now never sees her son and daughter and she has moved out of the state and had another baby. I do not trust them AT ALL!! They make me soooo incredibly nervous. They are all two faced and will lie to your face so do not trust them no matter what!! Praying for your situation hun.

[moonfirefaery]

My family dealt with an experience where CPS workers lied. Many of the people in the system are amazing, wonderful people, but even people who love children can be misled to do things like lie if they think it's for the greater good. They don't realize that if you have to lie, it's probably not for the greater good.

[myfairbabies]

Originally Posted by Tumble Bumbles 

I know :(   ...but that's why they sent a letter. It's not illegal to have a baby at home unassisted. They know that. They also have to make an effort to "follow-up" on every call they get, no matter how bogus -- for legal/liability reasons. I think the OP has absolutely zero reason to be worried. That's obviously so much easier said than done, but there's no case here. None.

 

Maybe it depends on the state, but I called CPS on a mother once for doing drugs and being high around her kids and they said that drug addiction was hard to prove and they couldn't do anything about it. So here, at least, they don't follow up on every call. I seriously can't believe the stuff they don't look into, but are harassing the OP for a  UC!

To the OP, I'm so sorry you are having to deal with this crap! But it really sounds like nothing will happen since they just sent a letter (easy for us to say, I know I would be terrified too in your position). I wish you could just enjoy your new baby without having to worry about this!

[moonfirefaery]

Originally Posted by myfairbabies 

Maybe it depends on the state, but I called CPS on a mother once for doing drugs and being high around her kids and they said that drug addiction was hard to prove and they couldn't do anything about it. So here, at least, they don't follow up on every call. I seriously can't believe the stuff they don't look into, but are harassing the OP for a  UC!

To the OP, I'm so sorry you are having to deal with this crap! But it really sounds like nothing will happen since they just sent a letter (easy for us to say, I know I would be terrified too in your position). I wish you could just enjoy your new baby without having to worry about this!

From what I've heard, CPS doesn't do much about drug abuse unless it can be proven (and like they said, most of the time, there's just not enough solid evidence to step in and intervene) and is causing observable harm to the children (drug-related accidents, mom not keeping the house clean, mom spending all her $ on drugs instead of food, etc). They do not always follow up on every call. Mostly they follow up when there is some reason to believe that abuse or neglect of the children is going on... In this case, they are worried that she may be medically neglecting her child; by ensuring the house is clean and stocked with food, having the baby see a physician regularly, and having her facts ready to go to explain anything she is foregoing (like vaccinations), she can combat that and show that it is not the case.

[goldenwillow]

Originally Posted by Jynuine 

BTW- Another thread on CPS scares and delivering in a hospital I found, today.

http://www.mothering.com/community/forum/thread/1305958/if-you-are-having-a-baby-in-the-hospital-have-a-lawyer-on-call#post_16356947 via http://www.ktnv.com/story/14338042/baby

I read this last night and wasn't able to post here.  Are you kidding me? 

Horrible.

How is the OP? 

I am so sorry to hear of the struggles you have had Jynuine.

We are headed to the islands today to meet up with friends that are expecting in June that are interested in hearing more of our homebirth.  So excited to share today.    

[Valerie]

Please contact a lawyer. Even those on this list who ARE lawyers are not capable of giving you legal advice without knowing all the details of your situation as well as the applicable laws in your state. Most lawyers will at least give you some initial advice without charge, but even if you have to pay, it is worth it to receive complete, accurate information.

Valerie

[scottishmommy]

I have no experience with CPS and hope I never do, but if I were in your position I would call them and say that you will be happy to meet the social worker at her office with your lawyer present.