Does anyone else feel sad for their circ'd partner or husband? - Page 2

[LiLStar]

stick around. You'll see some men who are bothered enough by what was done to them as an infant that they're restoring. tlc tugger doesn't remain in business for no reason. *they're making money off their restoration products* The foreskin is by no means useless. Google it. I just did and this simple list of foreskin functions came up. http://www.circumstitions.com/Functions.html

You do, however, have a point that it can be considered wasted emotions if the guy isn't bothered. I feel a little sad thinking about my dh as a newborn and how painful it must have been for him. For now, I just feel more sad for *me*! The friction created when there's no mobile skin can sure be uncomfortable sometimes. 

[jenP]

Originally Posted by Galatea 

You're not middle-aged!

You're sweet! But we are in our 40's. I hope I haven't reached the mid-point of my life, but I would say it is the "middle years." (0-40, first third of life; 40- 80, second third, 80 - 120, the final third :lol: I plan on living a long time)

And let me tell you, the effects of circumcision on our sex life in our 20's and 30's was very minor, just the severely bent penis which truly didn't make a huge difference. It has only become a big problem now, with the keratinization and lack of sensation. So people with circumcised partners and a "GREAT" sex life now, just wait.....I know intact men and restored men in their 40's, and people, sex does NOT have to decline in your 40's!!! It's the circumcision causing it.

[QueenOfTheMeadow]

Originally Posted by PediNP 

Exactly. I have never spoken to another male who is circ'd that has regrets. I would be horribly upset had this not been done as an infant. I've watched these surgeries on adult men and its no cakewalk through recovery! I'm glad it was done and have absolutely no regrets. A chunk of useless skin is no reason to get upset over losing. If I were to ever have a son, he will be circ'd also. If the guy isn't bothered, nobody else should be...just wasted emotions..IMO.

I've talked to a few who have had issues directly related to circs that were too tight. And I've talked to numerous women who suffer in their sex lives due to the fact that their partners were circ'd. But I think that's great that you are fine with it. My dh is fine with his as well and so am I. But, he was well aware of the issues that can be caused by circ and was completely against circ for our boys.

As adult, with the full knowledge of what being circ'd mean (though without knowledge of what the forskin is, you really aren't educated in what it means), you are saying that you would never want to be circ'd. But you feel that the pain and recovery an infant who can't ask for pain medication or even say they don't want an importand part of their anatomy cut off is OK? Am I misinterpreting this?


As for it being a piece of useless skin, you are obviously unaware of the function of the foreskin. I would suggest taking the time to read about the very integral part of the male anatomy before assuming that it is useless.
http://www.enotalone.com/article/3509.html
http://mensightmagazine.com/Articles/Fleiss,%20M.%20Paul/tellaboutcirc.htm

I do agree that it would be useless to you to waste emotion on it. But it isn't a waste of time to educate yourself about it.

[lovingmommyhood]

Not a bit. I WILL NOT be circumcising this baby but I like DH's penis and we have a great sex life. He doesn't miss his foreskin and I'm glad, I think people need to be happy with their bodies. I know there are men who try to grow it back or whatever but that is not our situation and I'm honestly thankful for that. I'm also thankful he's never had a problem from being circ'd such as painful erections. I love all of him and I don't feel bad for something that happened 30 years ago. 

[purplerose]

I just want to clarify myself bc the way PediNP agreed with me makes it look like I feel the same way...

My point is that if the man does not regret being circ, I don't feel the need to feel sorry for him, *as the grown man that he is*. As a baby, yeah, because think of how even less pain relief was used back then. But I am totally against circ'ing and would NEVER do that to my child. I am even one of *those* people who think it should not be offered or covered by insurance except for very rare medical cases. And my husband wouldn't want his boys circ'd either, even though he *was* circ and doesn't feel he has any problems from it. I just do not put much emotion into regretting something for him like that when he doesn't care his own self.

[Galatea]

I'm all for acceptance of what is, but you can't skip over the grief phase and go right to acceptance.  I think that neither very few circumcised men nor their partners are really aware of what they are missing (how could they be, not having experienced it?)  I think that the attitude of "I'm not going to waste emotion on something he doesn't care about" is pretty callous and unimaginative, and probably exists b/c of continuing cultural bias.  If a woman came from Africa to your hometown, and you discovered she had been circumcised, but she was fine with it and said she had a great sex life (as most circumcised women actually report), would you all, as women, still be fine with it?  Or would you be horrified and disgusted, and think, "She may think she is fine, but she doesn't know what she is missing - I couldn't even imagine having sex without my clitoris/clitoral hood/inner labia!"  B/c if you would be thinking the latter, you need to reexamine your cultural biases and your sense of empathy.  Your husbands were tied down as babies and had part of their genitals sliced away with no pain relief (anyone of adult age now had ~0% chance of anesthesia.)  If that doesn't make you sad, then I don't know what would.  Anyone whose body was cut without their consent was wounded, period.

[hakunangovi]

Originally Posted by jenP 

And let me tell you, the effects of circumcision on our sex life in our 20's and 30's was very minor, just the severely bent penis which truly didn't make a huge difference. It has only become a big problem now, with the keratinization and lack of sensation. So people with circumcised partners and a "GREAT" sex life now, just wait.....I know intact men and restored men in their 40's, and people, sex does NOT have to decline in your 40's!!! It's the circumcision causing it.

Isn't that the truth - A lot  of people are in for a nasty surprise in a decade or two.  Ever wonder why there a few, if any ads on TV in Europe for Viagra, Cialis etc, and yet we are inundated with them here in North America.

[Lory]

This is what I meant. Despite how long ago it happened, there's a physical scar left where he was clamped and cut. Thankfully, he's not upset about the pain he can't remember, but he has said that he feels some disgust about the actual procedure because he feels that something he never got to try out was thrown in the garbage.

I remember the first time I learned about FGM and my vagina "hurt" for days just from reading about it, so I think I just have way too much empathy for my own good.
 

Originally Posted by Galatea 

Your husbands were tied down as babies and had part of their genitals sliced away with no pain relief (anyone of adult age now had ~0% chance of anesthesia.)  If that doesn't make you sad, then I don't know what would.  Anyone whose body was cut without their consent was wounded, period.

[outlier]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PediNP 

Exactly. I have never spoken to another male who is circ'd that has regrets. I would be horribly upset had this not been done as an infant. I've watched these surgeries on adult men and its no cakewalk through recovery! I'm glad it was done and have absolutely no regrets. A chunk of useless skin is no reason to get upset over losing. If I were to ever have a son, he will be circ'd also. If the guy isn't bothered, nobody else should be...just wasted emotions..IMO.

Here are some peer-reviewed studies you may want to look at regarding the anatomy of that chunk of skin (and muscle and mucous membrane):

http://www.cirp.org/library/anatomy/taylor/  (Note: has some pictures of penises used in the study)

http://www.cirp.org/library/anatomy/sorrells_2007/

[QueenOfTheMeadow]

Just a gentle reminder of the forum guidelines:

We are not interested in hosting discussion on merits of routine infant medical circumcision

[lovingmommyhood]

Originally Posted by Galatea 

I'm all for acceptance of what is, but you can't skip over the grief phase and go right to acceptance.  I think that neither very few circumcised men nor their partners are really aware of what they are missing (how could they be, not having experienced it?)  I think that the attitude of "I'm not going to waste emotion on something he doesn't care about" is pretty callous and unimaginative, and probably exists b/c of continuing cultural bias.  If a woman came from Africa to your hometown, and you discovered she had been circumcised, but she was fine with it and said she had a great sex life (as most circumcised women actually report), would you all, as women, still be fine with it?  Or would you be horrified and disgusted, and think, "She may think she is fine, but she doesn't know what she is missing - I couldn't even imagine having sex without my clitoris/clitoral hood/inner labia!"  B/c if you would be thinking the latter, you need to reexamine your cultural biases and your sense of empathy.  Your husbands were tied down as babies and had part of their genitals sliced away with no pain relief (anyone of adult age now had ~0% chance of anesthesia.)  If that doesn't make you sad, then I don't know what would.  Anyone whose body was cut without their consent was wounded, period.

This is part of my struggle with hanging out in this forum. It's got to be so extreme. I understand there are strong feelings on the subjects and I understand the injustice that has been done to male infants in our country, which is why I am not going to subject my new son to the same treatment...BUT I wouldn't say attitudes like the above are helping the cause any along with words like "mutilation". More information and less emotionally charged responses would win a lot more people for the cause. 

I don't understand why it's not okay for somebody to "skip over the grief phase" if they truly feel there is nothing wrong with them. You think they should be forced to feel bad about it??? If they don't feel bad, why does that bother you? And no, I wouldn't be "horrified" or "disgusted" by another woman's body, horribly scarred, disfigured, or not. If a person is fine with it and thinks she has a great sex life, then she is and does. It's all relative. 

I have to bow out of this thread and this specific forum (again) because it's really hard for me to feel that I can post here without things like this coming up. I hope I'm not coming off as offensive because I am upset and that comes out sometimes. 

Have a good weekend everybody! 

[QueenOfTheMeadow]

Originally Posted by lovingmommyhood 

This is part of my struggle with hanging out in this forum. It's got to be so extreme. I understand there are strong feelings on the subjects and I understand the injustice that has been done to male infants in our country, which is why I am not going to subject my new son to the same treatment...BUT I wouldn't say attitudes like the above are helping the cause any along with words like "mutilation". More information and less emotionally charged responses would win a lot more people for the cause. 

I don't understand why it's not okay for somebody to "skip over the grief phase" if they truly feel there is nothing wrong with them. You think they should be forced to feel bad about it??? If they don't feel bad, why does that bother you? And no, I wouldn't be "horrified" or "disgusted" by another woman's body, horribly scarred, disfigured, or not. If a person is fine with it and thinks she has a great sex life, then she is and does. It's all relative. 

I have to bow out of this thread and this specific forum (again) because it's really hard for me to feel that I can post here without things like this coming up. I hope I'm not coming off as offensive because I am upset and that comes out sometimes. 

Have a good weekend everybody! 

I don' t think you are being offensive at all. I think there is a difference with being able to say, 'yes, this is what happened to me. I wish it hadn't, but it is what it is." and grief. For some men, I think there is a grieving process. For other men, there doesn't seem to be a thought about it at all. And then for men like my dh, he wishes it hadn't happened to him. But he is still happy with who he is and with our sex life. But he also knew that he didn't want to have his children go through something like that. I don't expect him to feel something he doesn't. I just expect him to be educated and want what's best for his sons. That in itself shows an ability to let it go without ignoring it. I'm very proud of the way he handled the whole thing.

[Galatea]

Originally Posted by lovingmommyhood 

I don't understand why it's not okay for somebody to "skip over the grief phase" if they truly feel there is nothing wrong with them. You think they should be forced to feel bad about it??? If they don't feel bad, why does that bother you? And no, I wouldn't be "horrified" or "disgusted" by another woman's body, horribly scarred, disfigured, or not. If a person is fine with it and thinks she has a great sex life, then she is and does. It's all relative. 

No one should be forced to feel anything... but if you read back over this thread, the most common response to the OP was "It is a waste of time to feel bad for the circumcised man."  This denies the grief many women and men do feel, and thus is unhelpful to them.  If it does cause emotional pain, telling the person that it is a waste of time to feel bad about it is very damaging, b/c denying pain only makes it last longer.  My dh is fine with his, yet I had to go through a long grieving process b/c I was not fine with it when I found out the truth about circumcision.  I do get offended here when people say it is pointless to be sad if he is not, b/c it was not pointless for me.  My grief informs and fuels my advocacy, and circumcision very much is my hill to die on.  IRL, I control it, but this used to be a safe place for like-minded people to congregate and discuss circumcision.  Now... :-/

Like another poster said, I very well may have too much empathy.  Or, it could be as I see it, which is that when people view circumcision as just a poor choice and not circumcising as a good decision based on a preponderance of evidence, I think, "How can you not be instantly revulsed, horrified and outraged by circumcision?  What part of tying a baby down and slicing off his genitals calls for a moderate reaction?"  I simply do not understand the moderate response.  To me, it is a clear-cut ethical decision: cutting babies' bodies is wrong, period.

Having done this for a long time, I know that there seem to be 4 schools of thought on circumcision:

1.  Circumcision = good, foreskin = bad.

2.  Circumcision = intact.  (I.e., "Each parent has to make their own decision...")

3.  Circumcision = not the best choice.  (I.e., "I wouldn't do it, and I don't think others should, but it's not my place to say anything/it's not the worst thing/etc.")

4.  Circumcision is unequivocally awful.

IME, in real life, many people are at #1.  Some more are at #2.  Many people here on MDC are at #3.  And only a few people are at #4 and I think I know them all online.  Believe me when I say that #4 is not best or better or desirable, b/c it causes me serious problems.  I find it almost impossible to even speak when the topic comes up b/c my brain literally clouds and I see red and feel like I might faint - that is how much it upsets me.  It makes it very hard for me to advocate effectively in some situations, but in other situations, it is quite effective for people to see passion.  Everyone learns differently, and there is no one style or message that reaches everyone.

[QueenOfTheMeadow]

Originally Posted by Galatea 

No one should be forced to feel anything... but if you read back over this thread, the most common response to the OP was "It is a waste of time to feel bad for the circumcised man."  This denies the grief many women and men do feel, and thus is unhelpful to them.  If it does cause emotional pain, telling the person that it is a waste of time to feel bad about it is very damaging, b/c denying pain only makes it last longer.  My dh is fine with his, yet I had to go through a long grieving process b/c I was not fine with it when I found out the truth about circumcision.  I do get offended here when people say it is pointless to be sad if he is not, b/c it was not pointless for me.  My grief informs and fuels my advocacy, and circumcision very much is my hill to die on.  IRL, I control it, but this used to be a safe place for like-minded people to congregate and discuss circumcision.  Now... :-/

Like another poster said, I very well may have too much empathy.  Or, it could be as I see it, which is that when people view circumcision as just a poor choice and not circumcising as a good decision based on a preponderance of evidence, I think, "How can you not be instantly revulsed, horrified and outraged by circumcision?  What part of tying a baby down and slicing off his genitals calls for a moderate reaction?"  I simply do not understand the moderate response.  To me, it is a clear-cut ethical decision: cutting babies' bodies is wrong, period.

Having done this for a long time, I know that there seem to be 4 schools of thought on circumcision:

1.  Circumcision = good, foreskin = bad.

2.  Circumcision = intact.  (I.e., "Each parent has to make their own decision...")

3.  Circumcision = not the best choice.  (I.e., "I wouldn't do it, and I don't think others should, but it's not my place to say anything/it's not the worst thing/etc.")

4.  Circumcision is unequivocally awful.

IME, in real life, many people are at #1.  Some more are at #2.  Many people here on MDC are at #3.  And only a few people are at #4 and I think I know them all online.  Believe me when I say that #4 is not best or better or desirable, b/c it causes me serious problems.  I find it almost impossible to even speak when the topic comes up b/c my brain literally clouds and I see red and feel like I might faint - that is how much it upsets me.  It makes it very hard for me to advocate effectively in some situations, but in other situations, it is quite effective for people to see passion.  Everyone learns differently, and there is no one style or message that reaches everyone.

I think that this is a great clarification. I think there is a 3.5 in there too. I'm definately totally against circ, but I am also not willing to give up long term friendships over it. Though I do know that it changes my opinions about people. It's not an easy path for intactivist.

[Galatea]

Originally Posted by QueenOfTheMeadow 

Originally Posted by Galatea 

No one should be forced to feel anything... but if you read back over this thread, the most common response to the OP was "It is a waste of time to feel bad for the circumcised man."  This denies the grief many women and men do feel, and thus is unhelpful to them.  If it does cause emotional pain, telling the person that it is a waste of time to feel bad about it is very damaging, b/c denying pain only makes it last longer.  My dh is fine with his, yet I had to go through a long grieving process b/c I was not fine with it when I found out the truth about circumcision.  I do get offended here when people say it is pointless to be sad if he is not, b/c it was not pointless for me.  My grief informs and fuels my advocacy, and circumcision very much is my hill to die on.  IRL, I control it, but this used to be a safe place for like-minded people to congregate and discuss circumcision.  Now... :-/

Like another poster said, I very well may have too much empathy.  Or, it could be as I see it, which is that when people view circumcision as just a poor choice and not circumcising as a good decision based on a preponderance of evidence, I think, "How can you not be instantly revulsed, horrified and outraged by circumcision?  What part of tying a baby down and slicing off his genitals calls for a moderate reaction?"  I simply do not understand the moderate response.  To me, it is a clear-cut ethical decision: cutting babies' bodies is wrong, period.

Having done this for a long time, I know that there seem to be 4 schools of thought on circumcision:

1.  Circumcision = good, foreskin = bad.

2.  Circumcision = intact.  (I.e., "Each parent has to make their own decision...")

3.  Circumcision = not the best choice.  (I.e., "I wouldn't do it, and I don't think others should, but it's not my place to say anything/it's not the worst thing/etc.")

4.  Circumcision is unequivocally awful.

IME, in real life, many people are at #1.  Some more are at #2.  Many people here on MDC are at #3.  And only a few people are at #4 and I think I know them all online.  Believe me when I say that #4 is not best or better or desirable, b/c it causes me serious problems.  I find it almost impossible to even speak when the topic comes up b/c my brain literally clouds and I see red and feel like I might faint - that is how much it upsets me.  It makes it very hard for me to advocate effectively in some situations, but in other situations, it is quite effective for people to see passion.  Everyone learns differently, and there is no one style or message that reaches everyone.

I think that this is a great clarification. I think there is a 3.5 in there too. I'm definately totally against circ, but I am also not willing to give up long term friendships over it. Though I do know that it changes my opinions about people. It's not an easy path for intactivist.

Oh, let's not go into the "Would you stay friends with this person" discussion b/c that one ALWAYS gets shut down.  I've seen it happen a zillion times.

[rissierae]

Yes, and I've thought about posting a question like this before too.  I think the thing I think about, in addition to what's been said, is- why did DH's parents get to make that decision when they're basically not the ones who were ever going to be affected by it?? kwim?  I love my in-laws, I'm truly blessed to have them in my life, but that question sneaks in my mind sometimes.  DH and I would both prefer it if he had his foreskin.  I'll leave it at that.

[Katie T]

I feel bad for my husband as well. And now that we have done all the research (to show him circ is not needed, My parents don't circ so I knew I didn't want/"need" to) He is upset that he is. He feels his mom (single at the time) took the choice from him and he would have like to remain intact. So sad.

[tammylsmith]

I just wish I could go back in time and ask his parents to leave him alone. Not so much for his sake because he is fine with it. More for our sake as a couple. I wish parents would keep that in mind when deciding to circ their sons... there is no way to know for sure what is going to happen in the future. Parents won't be seeing their son's penis after a few years, and it is sad that the man himself and future sex partners--you know, the people who actually have anything to do with the penis in question--have no say in the matter when it comes to circ.

[WildKingdom]

Isn't that the truth - A lot  of people are in for a nasty surprise in a decade or two.  Ever wonder why there a few, if any ads on TV in Europe for Viagra, Cialis etc, and yet we are inundated with them here in North America.

This has nothing to do with prevalence of erectile dysfunction.  Direct-to-consumer advertising is illegal in Europe.  Now you can stop wondering!

[MCatLvrMom2A&X]

There was a study done that showed without doubt circ and ED are very related it has to do with the nerve and tissue damage that happens with circ. Does anyone have that link? I used to have it but my laptop died