Would you be comfortable with this? - Page 2

[les_oiseau]

No way. If she had an older cousin, say 13 yo, I might let her go with her cousin. Including the precautions of Dad at the other stop, etc. But a 6yo by herself, no way.

[choli]

Originally Posted by acdmama 

OF COURSE every child and every situation are different.  It's not a risk I would be willing to take. I don't think it's harsh to suggest that our job as parents is to keep our children safe.  There is a difference between "independent exploration" and young children being completely on their own.  I would not be willing to risk my child's safety and it's naive to think that nothing could happen.  Several of the suggestions DO make sense, letting her pick a different seat on the same car so she has the "adventure" bit while still having a parent with her. IMO, it sends the wrong message, that at 6 years old you don't need a parent with you.

It sends the message that at 6 you don't need a parent with you for a 3 minutes train ride when one parent puts you on the train and the other meets you 3 minutes later at the destination. Not an unreasonable message, in my opinion, and one I would have no qualms about passing to my kids.

Realistically, what do those who feel this is unsafe think is likely to happen to the child in public on a train in that 3 minutes?
 

[HollyBearsMom]

C'mon Choli! 

There could be a child molester on that train and a lot can happen in 3 minutes!

A deranged man (or woman) could expose themselves to her

The train could CRASH or BLOW UP!!!

Lightening could strike!!!

She could suddenly get sick and throw up and choke on her own vomit

I could go on and on!

[Hey Mama!]

If it was as you described then yes I would be ok with it. 

[CatsCradle]

I live in NYC where there are both greater metro commuter trains and inner-city subways.  My DD is 4.5 now, and is very savvy with regard to how trains work, where to get off, platform safety, etc.  That being said, I'd be less inclined to let her ride the subway alone than one of the high speed commuter trains.  The commuter trains seem to have a lot of conducter oversight whereas the subway is an often crowded and precarious place.  Generally the subway is safe for a normal adult human being, but I've been riding it long enough to know that people can be inconsiderate and rude, as well as just "out to lunch" mentally speaking.  Because of DD's size and inability to adequately defend herself against the press of the crowd, I wouldn't feel comfortable allowing her to ride alone until a few more years from now.  A lot of kids travel by subway to school, but they are almost always in pairs or groups and they tend to be in 8 year to 17 year range. 

The commuter trains are a different story.  They tend to be spacious and a bit more genteel (sp?) and there are conductors traveling through the cars constantly.  Travelling alone from one stop to another with parents/guardians on each end?  Yes, I could see that happening and be okay with it.

Actually, I don't know if there are rules requiring that children under a certain age be accompanied on trains here in NYC, but I do know that strangers would freak out about seeing someone as young as six traveling alone.  Despite all the madness here, people do exhibit a bit of outrage about certain things like this.  I know that an automatic response for me would be to raise my eyebrows.  It is just not common to see someone around the age 8 or under traveling by themselves.

Edited by CatsCradle - 3/30/11 at 12:47pm

[meemee]

can you asses your child? forget what the norms are.

but just look at your child and see what they can achieve.

it is funny isnt it, that we push for independence as babies and when they are raring to go we say uhmmm no stop. you cant do that yet. 

if i wasnt tied by legal issues and a coparent my dd would have a lot of freedom to do things by herself. 

for instance since 6 she has been riding the bus independently with me "miles" away from her. she has crossed roads (stop sign - semi busy road) two blocks away from me as we walked to the bus stop. she has been left alone at home (duplex) with a neighbour being informed at that age for half an hour. gosh somedays i'd even come back and find her still in the same place lost in what she was doing. at 8 she has been home for 2 hours alone (with neighbors being aware). she is a careful child and knows what to do. once she begged me to let her stay longer and i did. what did i return to. my child admitting that was too long. she was scared. nothing was up and she was sewing, but the silence in the house for 3 hours got to her. now me telling her wasnt enough for her to believe it. she had to discover that herself. and now she knows. 

some children need independence more than others. mine is one of them. we get into my college campus and dd walks to the study center alone (she's been doing that since she was 7) while i go to class. 

i am sorry, but i find we are too molly coddling our children - esp. those who want to do it and are totally capable of it. if dd was born in a 3rd world country she would be working earning money for the family (which kinda she has done by helping her daddy's friend who broke her arm - did the dishes, did laundry and raked the leaves in a giant backyard). 

it isnt the safety factor that concerns me. it is the freak out factor. how dd will handle under stress. she has had opportunities and proven to me she can keep a calm head - actually better than i can. 

[lalaland42]

This whole thing started because DD overheard me telling someone that I thought she was really good at navigating the train system here. I thought at the time and still do that if she got separated from me in Zurich, she could get the train home. Obviously I don't want that to happen but I am glad that she has the knowledge if she needs it (G-d forbid). 
 

The idea of picking a different seat than me is good but she's already done it. I usually take DS in the Ergo but if I have a bunch of shopping to do, I take the stroller which has to stay just inside the train doors. I don't like DD standing up when the train starts and stops so I send her to a seat. She has chosen to sit upstairs (double decker train) a couple of times and for 1 stop, I let her. 

Originally Posted by Daffodil 

I'd feel quite comfortable with that, if I didn't think people would be alarmed to see a 6 year old riding alone.  I don't know what's considered normal in Switzerland.  Here, I think there would be a big risk someone would freak out and yell at the parents, or worse.  But I think that's about the only risk.  It sounds like a pretty safe scenario.

There are kids a couple of towns over that commute one train stop to school starting at around the age of 8. They generally go in a group but I've seen solo kids too. 

Originally Posted by Drummer's Wife 

I don't think I'd be comfortable with that.  But then, my 6 yo doesn't even like to ride the school bus filled only with kids from school - so it's hard for me to imagine putting him on a train by himself.  For a 3 minute ride, it seems like a hassle just to do for fun (with you at one end and DH at the next stop).  But if it's something she is really looking forward to, I guess I might consider doing it just once.  But then, will she want to take the train for longer amounts of time and more frequently?  How are the other passengers, generally?  Not sure how your train is in Switzerland, but I wouldn't put my kids on the bus downtown w/o me b/c there are drunks and inappropriate things that go on.  I'm totally assuming your train is not like that, but if trains are a huge method of transportation in your city, I guess I am comparing it to busing/subway systems in other places. 

No drunks during the day, only Swiss grandmas. The trains are used by people commuting to work and other towns for shopping, etc. The trains are very clean and safe. 

Originally Posted by acdmama 

No way.  I wouldn't do it.  Six years old is too young to be on her own without supervison.  Period.   

 I am already in trouble with DD's German teacher because I won't let her walk across town to her weekly lesson by herself. I think taking the train 1 stop is less dangerous than taking the train underpass, crossing 2 streets, and cutting through a high school basketball court. The teachers here encourage the kids to walk without parents starting at age 4.5. DD usually walks home by herself but that is because we live 50 feet (and no streets) away from her school. 

xposted with a bunch of people. It is a commuter, suburban train, not a subway. (An S-bahn for those who've visited Zurich)

[meemee]

Originally Posted by lalaland42 

 I am already in trouble with DD's German teacher because I won't let her walk across town to her weekly lesson by herself. I think taking the train 1 stop is less dangerous than taking the train underpass, crossing 2 streets, and cutting through a high school basketball court. The teachers here encourage the kids to walk without parents starting at age 4.5. DD usually walks home by herself but that is because we live 50 feet (and no streets) away from her school. 

oh dear. i think i am living in the wrong country. dd would have worshiped her teacher for suggesting that. 
 

[*bejeweled*]

No way, No how. Would I send a million bucks in plain view unsupervised on a train? No way, No how.
And I'm sure your DD is as priceless as mine.

[One_Girl]

My initial reaction was that I absolutely would.  Three minutes to one stop on a train that won't stop for anything else seems like no big deal.  After thinking about it however I think you need to take into consideration how easy it is for a small child to get lost in a crowded train station.  I wouldn't worry about my child not making it to the stop or anything happening on a three minute ride, but I would worry about not being able to connect with her at the end of the ride.  You can't tell by looking at someone who is clean and safe and who isn't.  It would be nice if we could because then our kids would never be in danger.  The most unsafe people often look very normal and safe.

[mommajb]

I would think about the precedent you are setting for her. It could be a helpful, empowering precedent or it could go te other way.

FWIW, My oldest son could have handled it just fine I think but my middle daughter was not ready/prepared at that age.

[choli]

Originally Posted by meemee 

oh dear. i think i am living in the wrong country. dd would have worshiped her teacher for suggesting that. 
 

 I would have worshipped the teacher for suggesting that. I wish more people had that attitude in the US.

[acdmama]

Clearly you're being sarcastic.  We all hope nothing bad would happen, but every horrror story you hear in the news starts with "I just turned my back for a second"  Every scary scenario is unlikely, but not impossible.  Doesn't mean your kid needs to sit at home in bubble wrap, but it does mean tough choices.

[acdmama]

Sorry, previous post was meant to respond to this.

 

Originally Posted by HollyBearsMom 

C'mon Choli! 

There could be a child molester on that train and a lot can happen in 3 minutes!

A deranged man (or woman) could expose themselves to her

The train could CRASH or BLOW UP!!!

Lightening could strike!!!

She could suddenly get sick and throw up and choke on her own vomit

I could go on and on!

[Owen'nZoe]

Originally Posted by choli 

 I would have worshipped the teacher for suggesting that. I wish more people had that attitude in the US.

 Agreed!

[acdmama]

6 was not an abritrary number selected by me, it is the age of the child in question.  I am disturbed by the attitude that "if your child wants to" should be the deciding factor.  If your kid wants to go out on a boat without a life jacket, is that okay?  Even good swimmers can panic in open water.  Kids need boundaries and the adults resposible for them need to make tough decisions sometimes.  EVERY 6 year old (9 year old, 12 year old) has SOME level of immaturity and does NOT have the decision making skills of an adult.  That's why they don't move out and get their own apartments at those ages.

 

Originally Posted by HollyBearsMom 

But what you said was:

Why 6? Specifically? You weren't saying *my* 6 year old isn't ready. You said 6 years old-period.

Also who are you sending a "message" to?  Your child? We are not talking about forcing a child to do something they don't want to do nor are we talking about abandoning her.  We are not talking about leaving a 6 year old in the car so the mom can get her hair done or leaving a 6 year old at home alone for hours at a time. We are not talking about sending a child who isn't it ready and has not shown signs that she is ready.

We are talking about a 3 minute train ride where her mom puts her on the train and her father picks her up.  This same child has been riding this train already, this train is regular part of her life.  This not a parent forcing her child off to ride a strange train in a strange town alone.

 

The message the OP is trying to send is "how can I empower my child to do what she what she wants to do and yet still be safe".  She wants her daughter to hear "I trust you and have confidence in you but I also want you to be safe". Isn't that a wonderful message for a child whether the OP choose to do it or not?

[oaktreemama]

In the scenario you describe-absolutely. I think it is critical that we weigh each situation and decide. As a PP said-the NY subway? No. But a Swiss commuter train filled with grandmas? Yup.

I will not make decisions based on the hyper sensationalized media discourse that dominates our culture. The media thrives on always protraying worst case scenarios instead of the millions and millions of safe interactions we have every day with the people around us.

OP-I would do it in your shoes. You have clearly weighed the risk benefit analysis and your daughter's maturity. I applaud you for recognizing her abilities and giving her the chance to do something so "grown up."

[CrazyCatLady]

In that situation, I would be OK with it.

It really all comes down to the kid and the situation on things like this.  My sister and I were very mature as kids and were doing things on our own (taking buses, staying home alone, walking to places, etc) from very young ages.  My dd is six and not only isn't ready for anything like that, she has no desire lol.  She doesn't seem to crave freedom or independence in the ways that I did.

Hope your dd has fun OP.  Sounds like a great potential birthday/turning six present. :)

[CatsCradle]

Originally Posted by oaktreemama 

In the scenario you describe-absolutely. I think it is critical that we weigh each situation and decide. As a PP said-the NY subway? No. But a Swiss commuter train filled with grandmas? Yup.

I will not make decisions based on the hyper sensationalized media discourse that dominates our culture. The media thrives on always protraying worst case scenarios instead of the millions and millions of safe interactions we have every day with the people around us.

OP-I would do it in your shoes. You have clearly weighed the risk benefit analysis and your daughter's maturity. I applaud you for recognizing her abilities and giving her the chance to do something so "grown up."

I agree with this, especially the bolded part.  I think too, when having this type of discussion, that we (as in generally) should recognize that risks are not the same across the board.  Not to be catty, but there are true risks in some locales and almost no percentage of risk in others.  We could discuss into infinity the "what ifs" and slim possibilities thereof, but it all comes down to a subjective analysis of the child, the place, the timing and other individual circumstances. 

[LynnS6]

I'd be fine with it. Parents in Europe are much less paranoid than American parents. I highly doubt anyone would call the authorities, because they wouldn't see this as unusual! The scenario sounds fairly safe to me -- gets on with mom watching at one station, gets off and meets dad at the other. My 6 year old is apart from me for a lot longer than 3 minutes and I don't worry. Gasp! I let her go to the neighbor's house around the corner and she doesn't have to call me when she gets there.

I think it's much safer to give your child very small increments of freedom like this at 6-7 than to realize at 10 that they haven't had any of it. 10-12 year olds are much easier to prey on if they don't have any skills for navigating the world or for trusting their own instincts.