Help please with 10 year old DD

[someonenamedleah]

My DD is 10 and in the fifth grade (late September birthday so a little young for her grade).  She has attended a charter school for gifted students for the past two years, previously she was in Catholic school.  She is a very bright girl and although I wouldn't necessarily label her "gifted" she tested into the school, it was free, has small classes and I thought she could use the challenge.  She's always gotten good grades, but this quarter her grades have been terrible.  Part of it, I think is due to social issues (she's had two "boyfriends" since Christmas, and I've always had trouble with her talking during class).  She's also missed 7 days (5 in a row and then two a few weeks later), due to illness.  She is not taking responsibility for getting her make up work from her teachers, losing assignments, not doing assignments, doing assignments and not bothering to turn them in, etc.  I've stressed to her how important it is complete and turn in assignments, but I feel like I'm not getting through to her.  I can't constantly e-mail back and forth to her teachers and I feel that at her age she SHOULD be taking some responsibility for managing her school work without me hounding constantly.  Another issue is that I have 14 month old twins that take up so much time, and I am practically a single mom due to DH's work schedule, and she's used to being the only child.    

At this point, she has had evening television and computer for fun taken away from her.  It doesn't make much of a difference to her, because she'll just sit and read.  Her extra curricular activity schedule is ridiculous, with figure skating Monday evenings, Saturday mornings, two mornings a week before school and some Fridays after school.  She does tae kwon do from 4:30-5:30 Tuesday and Thursdays (her coach would like her to come more often because he thinks she has the potential to be a national level competitor), and piano lessons Tuesday and Wednesday evenings.  Her father (my ex) has said that tae kwon do is non-negotiable because he wants her to be able to defend herself.  I hate to have her stop piano.  The only thing that can go is skating, which is what she loves the most.  I told her that if her report card wasn't acceptable, she would not be able to skate again until summer, which would mean missing competitions as well as the ice show, which she has a solo in.  It looks like her report card is going to be bad.  I just don't know if taking away figure skating is going to address the real issue.

I've tried to talk her about this, and she cried and told me she wants to do well in school, get her next belt in tae kwon do, win gold medals in skating, and make her piano teacher happy (who wants to start preparing her for state competition), but that she is under too much pressure and wants to be home schooled.  On one hand, I think she was being a little manipulative because she saw me reading a book called The Triple Bind about pressure put on young girls to be perfect.  On the other hand, she is an extremely competitive girl and likes excelling.  I truly wouldn't mind if she gave up a activity, because school is the most important, these activities are all costing a ton of $$$ and quite frankly, I'm exhausted from being her chauffeur.  I also think that she is getting to the point where she will have to concentrate on just one or two activities if she wants to be really good at them.  And, I want her to do well in school.  Not be an Olympic tae kwon do-ing figure skater.  

Thank you if you've read this far.  Sorry it was rambling.  If you have any advice, thank you!

[Galatea]

I think she is learning that you really cannot do everything at once.  She has to winnow it down, and you can help her make the choice, but I would be pretty firm that something has to go.

[whatsnextmom]

Don't let all those coaches/instructors get to you. They tried to rope us in for more than the kids wanted too talking of high level competition and such. Don't be afraid of the slow track. It's really not so bad and often the kids on it are having more fun. Save the fast track for those areas your child is personally driven to be on... not the ones that others are trying to talk you into.

For example my own 10-year-old loves Tae Kwon Do but he loves lots of things. Instead of going to the local gyms that require 4 days a week commitment, he chose the rec center which only requires 1. It means he moves slower through the belts but so what. He enjoys his time there. He's learning. He still does well in tournaments when he decides to do one. Plus, it allows him to also play the piano. Again, slow track. He only practices a couple times a week but it's enough for him to progress, just slower than a child driven to practice daily. He enjoys theatre but he picks and chooses productions he wants to be involved with based on whether he feels up to the heavy time commitment at that moment or not. When my DD was 10, she gave up private violin lessons and joined the middle school orchestra. She still got to play but during school hours. Same with sports... dropped out of league play and joined school teams with better hours. DD decided to fast track in theatre and can afford to spend 20 hours a week on it because she pulled back on everything else.

Don't undersestimate the distraction and stress having "boyfriends" and that whole social scene causes. My DD (now 14 and in high school) is just stepping into that world and it's been a MAJOR distraction. Thankfully, it didn't last too long. Her first semester report card shocked her back into perspective (it wasn't actually bad but she got a couple "B's" based soley on the fact she had a couple missing assignments.)

I'd see about cutting things down and getting her away from anyone who is pushing for more of a commitment than she is truely willing to make.

[Daffodil]

This may seem like a dumb question, but why is school the most important?  When I think back to what I was learning in 5th grade (in a gifted class), I can't recall much that was really vital.

[whatsnextmom]

I understand your point. Much better to screw up in 5th grade than high school when your grades really count. I will say that 5th grade in our area is a big deal though. The district pushes the years prior to transition hard (namely 5th and 8th grades.) The idea is to have them over prepared for middle and high school seem easy and they can afford to focus on the social differences without stressing over the academics so much. 5th grade is also what determines your class placement for middle school. To get into pre-algebra you have to test out of 6th grade math end of 5th grade. This means many kids (not just gifted) double up the math curriculum in 5th grade. You have to have high test scores and teacher reccomendation to get into advanced science and English. I know many GATE kids who were ommitted from advanced courses because they hadn't proved organized and focused enough to handle the course load. There is some wiggle room there of course but my kids are very advanced for grades and both have found/are finding 5th grade a real challenge.

Personally, we find our kids learn a lot from floundering but I also understand how 5th grade can be stressful.

Originally Posted by Daffodil 

This may seem like a dumb question, but why is school the most important?  When I think back to what I was learning in 5th grade (in a gifted class), I can't recall much that was really vital.

[AllisonR]

Originally Posted by someonenamedleah    

Her father (my ex) has said that tae kwon do is non-negotiable because he wants her to be able to defend herself.  I hate to have her stop piano.  The only thing that can go is skating, which is what she loves the most.  I told her that if her report card wasn't acceptable, she would not be able to skate again until summer, which would mean missing competitions as well as the ice show, which she has a solo in.  It looks like her report card is going to be bad.  I just don't know if taking away figure skating is going to address the real issue.

I've tried to talk her about this, and she cried and told me she wants to do well in school, get her next belt in tae kwon do, win gold medals in skating, and make her piano teacher happy (who wants to start preparing her for state competition), but that she is under too much pressure and wants to be home schooled. 

She doesn't sound manipulative, she sounds like a very practical young lady who is overwhelmed and is telling you so, but does not want to disappoint anyone, neither you nor herself. I'd say she has a huge amount on her plate. Cut her some slack. If something has to go, let it be piano (which YOU want) and tae kwon do (which you XH wants). Not skating, the activity that SHE wants. You want to punish her for bad grades by taking away skating, the thing she is most passionate about? Will it even work? IMO, no. It will only backfire. A recipe for being burnt out and bitter.

You have already punished her by taking away tv and computer for not getting good enough grades. This hasn't worked. So why would taking away skating work? She isn't going to learn to take responsibility and turn in assignments on time by you nagging and punishing. She is going to learn it through natural consequences (bad grades). Or she will learn it by you being flexible to change her current schedule, getting rid of some of the things SHE is less interested in to lighten her load.

What about down time, with you? What about with her dad? Or your DH? I know you must be busy with the twins, this is a huge adjustment for everyone, including her. But no matter how strong and competitive someone is, even if most of the drive is internal, there needs to be some time to be together, to just play cards or sit in silence together. Adults need quality time with each other. 10 year olds do too. 

[Roar]

It isn't at all true that the only thing that can go is skating. You and her dad have the options to let the other activities go and it is the only option that really makes sense.

One thing I would emphasize to your daughter is that not taking an activity this year is not giving it up for life. She could choose different activities for the summer, for next year, or for many years from now.

[joensally]

Originally Posted by AllisonR 

She doesn't sound manipulative, she sounds like a very practical young lady who is overwhelmed and is telling you so, but does not want to disappoint anyone, neither you nor herself. I'd say she has a huge amount on her plate. Cut her some slack. If something has to go, let it be piano (which YOU want) and tae kwon do (which you XH wants). Not skating, the activity that SHE wants. You want to punish her for bad grades by taking away skating, the thing she is most passionate about? Will it even work? IMO, no. It will only backfire. A recipe for being burnt out and bitter.

You have already punished her by taking away tv and computer for not getting good enough grades. This hasn't worked. So why would taking away skating work? She isn't going to learn to take responsibility and turn in assignments on time by you nagging and punishing. She is going to learn it through natural consequences (bad grades). Or she will learn it by you being flexible to change her current schedule, getting rid of some of the things SHE is less interested in to lighten her load.

What about down time, with you? What about with her dad? Or your DH? I know you must be busy with the twins, this is a huge adjustment for everyone, including her. But no matter how strong and competitive someone is, even if most of the drive is internal, there needs to be some time to be together, to just play cards or sit in silence together. Adults need quality time with each other. 10 year olds do too. 

I totally agree with the above.  Her week sounds like an improper fraction, and something had to give.  It makes sense that it was school, the one place where she doesn't have a coach right there looking over her shoulder, and where she's got peer distractions.

The other thing to consider is her developmental stage - she needs to have a huge say in what she spends her time doing if she's going to feel seen, heard and respected - which is hugely important as you move toward the teen years. 

[KCMichigan]

Originally Posted by AllisonR 

She doesn't sound manipulative, she sounds like a very practical young lady who is overwhelmed and is telling you so, but does not want to disappoint anyone, neither you nor herself. I'd say she has a huge amount on her plate. Cut her some slack. If something has to go, let it be piano (which YOU want) and tae kwon do (which you XH wants). Not skating, the activity that SHE wants. You want to punish her for bad grades by taking away skating, the thing she is most passionate about? Will it even work? IMO, no. It will only backfire. A recipe for being burnt out and bitter.

You have already punished her by taking away tv and computer for not getting good enough grades. This hasn't worked. So why would taking away skating work? She isn't going to learn to take responsibility and turn in assignments on time by you nagging and punishing. She is going to learn it through natural consequences (bad grades). Or she will learn it by you being flexible to change her current schedule, getting rid of some of the things SHE is less interested in to lighten her load.

What about down time, with you? What about with her dad? Or your DH? I know you must be busy with the twins, this is a huge adjustment for everyone, including her. But no matter how strong and competitive someone is, even if most of the drive is internal, there needs to be some time to be together, to just play cards or sit in silence together. Adults need quality time with each other. 10 year olds do too. 

Ditto this.

Really- at 10 she should have a say in what she wants to do for extra activities.

Her week schedule is exhausting to even read-- and is probably exhausting to her physically as well! 

I would put the 'extras' on hold until school is out (Ta Kwon Do & piano) and maybe cut down the skating - just to give her some downtime, not as a punishment. Make sure she gets to skate, relax, as well as have time to be social and do her school work.

By 'making' her do activities that your and your ex DH want and potentially taking away the activity she likes leaves her little control over her own schedule. At 10, she really should have a say in what to do in her 'non' school time.  The past year with twins is an adjustment for all of you- she may be dealing with it by letting school slide.

I think it would good for ALL of you to slow the pace down for awhile.  Let her do more in the summer (piano, skating, whatever else) but right now- try to focus on her getting rest, having time to be a 10 yr old kid, and getting school work done. Next fall if she is off to Middle School, it will be even more changes and  now is the time to learn to self-manage and organize school work responsibilities.

[someonenamedleah]

Thanks for all the replies.  I'm sorry if my original post made it sound like these are activities I'm pushing her to do.  These are the things she begs to do more and more of.  It's where her friends are and what she enjoys, even piano.  We're actually a pretty laid back family.  She gets a lot of one on one time with her dad, and we spend most of free time together as a family.  She has friends in the neighborhood, has sleepovers, rides her bike, etc.  I'm not a stickler about grades, but I do think it's important to turn in assignments and put forth a good amount of effort to schoolwork.  She doesn't really care about bad grades, but she does care about skating, piano and tae kwon do, which I see as privileges.  

[lindberg99]

Wow, it sounds like everyone in your family needs a break! I think you, DD, DH and XH need to sit down and work through this. (Depending how things are with your XH of course!) How are all these activities impacting your family? You sound like you are pretty tired of it and I bet that your 14 month olds are getting harder to drag around to all these activities. I get that XH wants her to learn to defend herself but does she really need to commit to two hours a week year round to do that? Piano and music are lifelong activities, she could easily take a break. My DD (who is almost 13) just started piano lessons again after an 18 month break. Sure, she is probably not as advanced as she would be if she had continued but so what? I think the break was good for her because it gave her the chance to explore what types of music she likes to play rather than having all music chosen for her by her teacher. Does your DD need to ice skate all year? Maybe she could skate during the school year and do TKD during the summer? I think you need to work something out or you all are going to be worn out!
 

[serenbat]

I get that XH wants her to learn to defend herself but does she really need to commit to two hours a week year round to do that?

I really take exception to this ---

most martial arts (if taught by a knowledgeable teacher) is extremely beneficial to the mind- two hours a weeks is really very little and it is not just about defense --no way would I stop that any more then the piano, it is a wonderful outlet and that seems to be needed in this case

martial arts are not just an activity and should not be view as such, they go far deeper and it really a life experience very important to the mind, not just the body

[Linda on the move]

Is the problem keeping up with school work mostly related to absences? Is she all caught up now?

Are the lower grades also related to absences? Caused by taking quizzes when she hadn't been taught the material mixed in with a few zeros for missed assignments?

I think that in 5th grade it's the teachers job to make sure that kids are clear on what is required and what work was missed. At this age, if the teacher isn't doing that, then the parent picking up the slack by communicating via emal is sensible.

The level of work is picking up, and the teacher is providing less support, so for you to decide this is the time for her to do it all on her own just seems mean to me. I'd be emailing the teacher to help the kid get back on track.

Does she normally get her work turned in and it's make up work that doesn't get turned in? Some teachers don't have a system for turning it in, and the kid really has to interrupt the class and draw a lot of attention to themselves to turn it in. With one of my dd's teachers, we ended up turning in make up work by taking it to the office and having the secretary put it in his mailbox.

If the problem is day to day work when she is there, I'd get her a homework planner and teach her to use it.

I think martial arts are great, but I don't think a 10 year should be in any activity they don't want to be in, and I think having her spend her adolescence learning to defend herself could make her a little nutty. The message there is that she isn't safe and she needs to fight because men are out to get her. There are good reasons to do martial arts, but this isn't one of them. It isn't an emotional healthy reason.

If she is still behind, could you take one week off of all extra activities and just let her catch up and catch her breath?

[whatsnextmom]

I don't think anyone was saying that martial arts was not valuable. On it's own, it isn't taking up much time in itself... it's just that all together, this girl is doing a lot of labor intensive activities simultaneously and having some struggles balancing it all. My own son loves martial arts and has been doing it from 4-years-old (he is 10 now and close to junior black belt.) However, he just does the once a week. He even took a whole session off (about 3 months) to do a professional play and was able to jump right back in. He still gets the benefit of martial arts but it doesn't take away from other activities he loves.

As for whether martial arts is a good defense for children, I actually believe there are other options too. My kids took a full course in self-defense when they were little and one day a year they take a brush up class. I like it because they really focus on realistic situations, how to be aware of your surroundings, how not to be a target and how to use your environment and objects in hand to help you. As they age, they adapt the situations and the defenses a child has at their disposal. At 5, there was no way DS could have fought someone off with his tae kwon do. However, in this course, he learned how to effectively get out of an adults grasp, how to call for help in a way people would listen and more. If the focus for the OP family is for DD to be able to defend herself but the martial arts is sucking up too much time, this sort of course might be an option or dropping down to a less intensive martial arts program for the time being.

As for piano, it's really ok to stop that for periods. I'm SO grateful our piano teacher (who is very highly reguarded) takes Winter and Spring vacations along with the local schools AND 6 weeks in the summer.  It's a chance for DS to do a show without stressing over missed lessons due to rehearsals, fitting in practice and more. We all need breaks sometimes. Otherwise we burn out and I've seen that happen with too many brilliant and talented kids before the even move out of the house.

Originally Posted by serenbat 

I really take exception to this ---

most martial arts (if taught by a knowledgeable teacher) is extremely beneficial to the mind- two hours a weeks is really very little and it is not just about defense --no way would I stop that any more then the piano, it is a wonderful outlet and that seems to be needed in this case

martial arts are not just an activity and should not be view as such, they go far deeper and it really a life experience very important to the mind, not just the body

[dessismama]

I would be more concerned about your DD not learning some of the foundaional skills to carry her forward, not for her grades. It is the 5th grade and these grades do not matter... however, the study skills and habits she gets into now will make a difference later. Also, you DD does sound a little over-extended... maybe having a conversation with her about what she really wants to doin 6th grade will be beneficial.

[Roar]

If you want to Google the buzzword for this in the gifted world is: Multipotentiality.
There are kids who love a wide range of activities and may be incredibly talented at nearly everything they try. It is a process to learn to manage that and most will need adult guidance and help to find ways to make choices that work to provide a balanced and healthy life and avoid burnout. Down time is vital to development and it needs to be protected.

One idea that we've found really helpful is the idea of serial activities. It doesn't have to be every activity year round every year. It is okay to keep an activity for summers only or to play an instrument and then move on to something else if you find another area more appealing. Also, it is really important as kids get older to help them learn to really recognize the difference between being talented and loving something. For some fortunate people those go hand in hand but it isn't always that way. It may be that your child has the greatest natural gifts that their teacher has ever seen - but they have equal talents in other areas that they enjoy more. Deciding not to do an activity right now isn't saying you will never do it. I know it isn't an answer for everyone, but the other big help here has been homeschooling. It can allow much more time and freedom to pursue interests.

[LynnS6]

She's 10. She needs help organizing and prioritizing. What tools does she have for tracking and organizing her work? What kind of scaffolding have you given her for how to do this? I think you're expecting a bit much of her in terms of catching up. When my ds missed 4 days of school due to illness, we worked together with his teacher to get the work done. While you shouldn't have to hound her every step of the way, her behavior tells you that she needs more time attention than she's getting right now, at least to that part of her life. (Don't forget she's had some emotional upheavals and  new siblings who are probably walking and into her stuff -- sibling issues often peak around this time.)

I'm also wondering if she's getting enough sleep and enough time to do her work. Is she so stressed or so tired that she can't organize her life? I know I can't prioritize when I'm exhausted.

Ask her this: If she had to choose just one thing to do after school, what would it be?  Then quit the rest of it. If school is a priority, then it needs to have time, and she needs to be able to have the time to do her work. I think you're expecting a bit much of a 10 year old right now -- not just in terms of organization, but in terms of asking her to prioritize her after school activities.

Of course she wants to do it all. She's 10! How can you help her? How can you give her the tools to decide what's most important and what can wait? Those skills are going to be crucial for her not only in terms of organizing her academic life (which paper do I need to write this weekend? which one can wait?), but also her personal life.

[StoriesInTheSoil]

If skating is something she really loves, regardless of whether she is good at it or not, please don't pull her due to her grades.

When I was 11, I was in my second semester of 6th grade in a very accelerated program for the profoundly gifted and we were having some stress at home.  I got a B on a report card and my mom pulled me out of ballet.  I soon began getting Ds and withdrawing from my friends.  I became incredibly sullen and profoundly depressed very quickly and ended up leaving the program due to behavioral problems and low grades the following year.  Being withdrawn from my favorite activity (I danced 5 days a week most weeks and no, I wasn't great at it but I loved it) really made me feel terrible.  It is not the only factor that caused my downward spiral but it was a large part and reading your post brought the feelings back as if it happened yesterday.

[ollyoxenfree]

I agree that she is overwhelmed but she wants to make the adults around her happy by excelling at a myriad of activities. I think you and your XH need to alleviate some of the pressure she is feeling by telling her it's okay if she isn't outstanding in everything she tries. She doesn't have to be a national level competitor in every extracurricular activity she joins - even if she has the potential for it. That's a recipe for a burned out child. 

It seems the only reason you think that skating can be eliminated from her schedule is that it's the one activity you and XH don't really value. Yet it's the one activity that she loves. Since she's the person who is actually participating, putting in the hours, the work, the sweat, and the mental focus, I think your DD is the person to decide which activities can be eliminated from her schedule. Have an honest talk with her (actually encourage her to do the honest talking about how she is feeling and what she wants, and you should listen).  In a couple of years, when she is a teenager, she will be making that choice anyway. If she burns out now at 10 y.o., it will be difficult to keep her engaged and involved during her teen years, when a beloved extra-curricular activity can really help her emotional stability and to make healthy life choices.

If she is determined to be a national level competitor in one or more sports (since you say she is competitive and likes excelling) then I think you may have to consider school choices. You haven't really raised schools as an issue, but if she continues with a demanding competitive schedule, I think you should consider a program for elite athletes rather than a school with an academic gifted focus. Elite athlete programs accommodate heavy training schedules and tournaments and competitions held away from home etc. Another alternative would be part-time school or as she suggests, homeschooling. You may find her grades improve once the pressure is relieved and she can focus a little more. It may also help solve the problem of the "boyfriends" a little by removing her from her current school situation. 

Regarding the boy craziness, it's a tough phase both for your DD to go through and for you to watch. DD went through something similar at the same age, mostly inspired by her close friends who were a little more mature (one is the child of a second marriage with adult half-siblings - she was very adult-like for a child).  It was the teachers in her gifted program who helped moderate it. They had a few talks with the students, mostly suggesting that they should just be focusing on friendships at their age, rather than romance. They mirrored the discussions we were having at home and DD, thankfully, took it to heart. The phase didn't last too long, and certainly was much shorter than if we had been really disapproving. 

[Casha'sMommy]

If you absolutely cannot let one activity go completely, why not just cut each of them by a day? Seems to me that would leave at least a couple days a week a little less busy giving your dd some down time.

I would tell my dd that she must lessen her load but that she should help decide where to do so. I would ask my dd's opinion and give her most of the responsibility of making the ultimate decision. I see this situation as a wonderful way to teach a dc about effective time management. I'd have my dd sit down with me and chat about priorities, make a pro's and con's list, and ultimately help make the final decision.

I recently ordered this book, Fighting Invisible Tigers, for all of my older three dc.

The book is a stress management guide for teens. It discusses how stress can lead to risky behaviors. It might be a good read for you now and may be appropriate for your dd now or in a few years.