Hello! Newbie here... - Page 3

[MJB]

Originally Posted by ElizabethE 

There's got to be a middle or common ground.

I'm in favor of real choices, and of facts. I had been misinformed until I realized the truth about UC. I used to believe what you believe. I'm telling you it's not the final word.

I used to think like you did. Keep going. 

I feel lucky to have had two wonderful UCs (and am now done having babies), but I would never try to tell anyone that it is the safest way to birth. I had healthy, full-term babies, a history of easy vaginal births, and several hospitals within 5 miles, along with years of self- and external education and experience. I believe people have the right to choose where and how to birth but I'm not going to lie to them to try and get them to make the same choices I did, nor am I interested in lying to myself. 

[ElizabethE]

Originally Posted by MJB 

I used to think like you did. Keep going. 

I feel lucky to have had two wonderful UCs (and am now done having babies), but I would never try to tell anyone that it is the safest way to birth. I had healthy, full-term babies, a history of easy vaginal births, and several hospitals within 5 miles, along with years of self- and external education and experience. I believe people have the right to choose where and how to birth but I'm not going to lie to them to try and get them to make the same choices I did, nor am I interested in lying to myself. 

Right. What are you saying, exactly? Something doesn't add up here. Something is not quite right. What exactly DO you feel about UC? Why did you even have them? Right now you seem none too encouraging at all about it. So what made you so special and everyone else, not?

Why wouldn't you try to tell anyone that it's the safest way to birth? What is the safest way to birth? Why did you decide to do something that you feel is actually quite risky?

And, you have several hospitals within 5 miles? Really? That many?

You won't lie to them to get them to make the same choices you did? Why, was something about your experience unfortunate, or a lie? You seem to imply that a UCer who thinks they've discovered the best way to give birth is LYING TO THEMSELVES. Please, explain.

[MJB]

Originally Posted by ElizabethE 

Right. What are you saying, exactly? Something doesn't add up here. Something is not quite right. What exactly DO you feel about UC? Why did you even have them? Right now you seem none too encouraging at all about it. So what made you so special and everyone else, not?

Why wouldn't you try to tell anyone that it's the safest way to birth? What is the safest way to birth? Why did you decide to do something that you feel is actually quite risky?

And, you have several hospitals within 5 miles? Really? That many?

You won't lie to them to get them to make the same choices you did? Why, was something about your experience unfortunate, or a lie? You seem to imply that a UCer who thinks they've discovered the best way to give birth is LYING TO THEMSELVES. Please, explain.

I feel that my unassisted births were lovely, special events for my family. I am glad that I was able to handle the minor complications that arose. 

I think the safest way to birth is in a hospital with a well-educated, evidence-based midwife or doctor. I think there are risks to homebirth and obviously more to unattended homebirth. However, I don't think these risks are large enough to necessarily dissuade someone from UC. I do think they are worth considering. I believe in informed choice. I think it is important to have medical help nearby and some knowledge of how to handle complications. I was certified in neonatal resuscitation between my two UCs and I really should have done it before the first one. I also chose to have some prenatal care including an ultrasound for my second UC but not my first. 

A quick google maps search tells me there are 7 hospitals within 4 miles of my house. I live in an urban area. 

I don't think anyone has discovered the best way to give birth. I think you are lying to yourself if you think UC is the safest way to give birth. I like riding motorcycles, for instance, but I'm not going to claim they're the safest vehicles out there. Sometimes risks are worth it. 

Ideally both homebirth will become safer and hospitals will become more evidence-based and family friendly so that people have better choices all around and can choose freely how they want to give birth to their baby. 

[ElizabethE]

Originally Posted by MJB 

I feel that my unassisted births were lovely, special events for my family. I am glad that I was able to handle the minor complications that arose. 

I think the safest way to birth is in a hospital with a well-educated, evidence-based midwife or doctor. I think there are risks to homebirth and obviously more to unattended homebirth. However, I don't think these risks are large enough to necessarily dissuade someone from UC. I do think they are worth considering. I believe in informed choice. I think it is important to have medical help nearby and some knowledge of how to handle complications. I was certified in neonatal resuscitation between my two UCs and I really should have done it before the first one. I also chose to have some prenatal care including an ultrasound for my second UC but not my first. 

A quick google maps search tells me there are 7 hospitals within 4 miles of my house. I live in an urban area. 

I don't think anyone has discovered the best way to give birth. I think you are lying to yourself if you think UC is the safest way to give birth. I like riding motorcycles, for instance, but I'm not going to claim they're the safest vehicles out there. Sometimes risks are worth it. 

Ideally both homebirth will become safer and hospitals will become more evidence-based and family friendly so that people have better choices all around and can choose freely how they want to give birth to their baby. 

Meepy, is that you? 

What you are saying still doesn't make sense to me. You are sitting there telling me that UC is riskier than any other birth and that the safest way is to go to the hospital, SO, why did you choose to roll the dice like that? Because most of us here actually think we are doing what is best for ourselves and the baby, not taking a chance. As medically minded as you are, I'm surprised you UCed. It seems like too much of an unnecessary risk, from that perspective.

I don't know how you can figure I am lying to myself, when you haven't so much as walked an inch in my shoes. I'm a very lucid, intelligent person who has formed reasonable and rational conclusions based on experience AND education. My conclusions simply don't mesh well with popular culture.

[mariamamaof5]

I love this board! Well at least the ones who have responded to my posts. I've been on other boards but have gotten the most info from Mothering. I love reading the different opinions although we may not all agree with each other. Thanks all! 

"Every human is an artist, a storyteller with a unique point of view. When we see ourselves as artists, we no longer feel the need to impose our story on others or to defend what we believe. We know that every artist has the right to create his own art."

[moonfirefaery]

MeepyCat, I don't feel that I turned down a safety net. I spent a great deal of time educating myself as much as I could, even before the pregnancy: reading, researching, talking to other moms who BTDT, learning from midwives, receiving the brief instruction on NPR that was available to me. I know from experience how quickly an ambulance can arrive and transport me to the hospital. My first pregnancy was low-risk and uncomplicated; the second one was as well. I had herbs on hand to deal with hemorrhage, the main thing that could have put me out of commission, and even shock. I taught my "birth attendants" (husband and stepmom) what I could. There was very little chance of a serious complication, and I felt prepared to handle any complications using my knowledge and my instincts. If hospital transfer had been required I felt confident that it would happen in a timely fashion--because as the homebirth statistics show, usually it does.

If you fear those "unlikely unknowns" for yourself, it's not such a stretch to believe that you fear them for others out of love and concern. I felt like I had a safety net. The difference between us is that a different type of safety net makes you comfortable. That's just fine, because plenty of women do want or even need a midwife--just not all of them. There are situations where I wouldn't UC nor would I advise another woman to UC. I see where you are coming from: you want a different safety net than "us," you know you're not the only woman who wants or needs that different safety net, and you don't want to watch quietly while all women are encouraged not to seek it, especially without all of the pertinent information that helps make it as safe as possible. There is no right safety net. We are all too individual for there to be. :)

MJB, are you saying that UC isn't the safest way to birth...but is worth it because of all the other benefits and isn't unsafe enough to forego those benefits...?

[Anna Bella]

I'm finding part of this debate really interesting - is fear of doctors/hospitals a good reason to choose UC? Some say it's disempowering because you're being driven by negatives instead of positives, others say it's perfectly reasonable to fear medical intervention. In my experience, both sides are true. I'm very skeptical about the medical establishment, particularly in pregnancy and childbirth. I have serious, informed intellectual concerns and intuitively, my 'inner wild animal' (as somebody put it) just doesn't like the whole medical treatment. I wanted to have a UC for my first birth, but in the end, decided to go to hospital. When I got there, the hospital staff gaped at me and asked in astonishment why I hadn't sought any medical assistance for my pregnancy. I wasn't in any state at the time to explain my entire complex matrix of spiritual, philosophical, intuitive, political, rational and educated views on the matter ... I didn't even try to explain. So they just started guessing. The only reason they could imagine was that I must be terrified of hospitals. It's true, I don't like hospitals, but I found this attitude really offensive. They were thinking of me as a child who cries at the sight of a needle and they pitied me. They started speaking to me as if english was my second language, as if I was mentally defective.

I get part of Meepycat's original point - it's probably better to focus on positive affirmations 'I trust my body' etc rather than thinking 'I must avoid the hospital.' It's not empowering to think of yourself as fearful. But I also understand why people were offended by the implication that there's something unhealthy about distrusting the medical establishment. I'm guessing that most women who are drawn to free-birth are like me in that they have very complex reasons. When you say 'fear of doctors/hospitals" it makes it sound kind of trivial, but there's actually a lot in it, including political, philosophical & spiritual issues. It's really great to see it all being drawn out here.

[MJB]

Originally Posted by moonfirefaery 

MJB, are you saying that UC isn't the safest way to birth...but is worth it because of all the other benefits and isn't unsafe enough to forego those benefits...?

For me, yes. When deciding how to birth my third baby, for instance, I considered that I am a low risk mom, with two uncomplicated vaginal births in my history, with 7 hospitals within 4 miles and midwifery and neonatal resuscitation training, and decided the benefits outweighed the risks. I wasn't interested in using the local midwives, so I was deciding between UC and hospital birth (or traveling for a midwife-attended out of hospital birth). I really wanted my sons (then 7.5 and 4.5) to be present at the birth, and that wouldn't have been allowed at the hospital, especially with the policies they put in place last year for H1N1. I wanted another waterbirth, which isn't allowed in the hospitals here. I wanted my husband to catch the baby, which might have been doable in the hospital, but maybe not. I decided to UC.

It turned out to be a harder birth than my others and I came close to transferring both during labor (with a stubborn posterior baby and a cervical lip, which I ended up reducing myself, at which point she finally turned and came out) and after, for bleeding. I didn't end up transferring and it was a nice experience for all of us once it was over (IMO, the best part of any homebirth is being in your own bed afterwards!) 

There are a lot of situations where UC is not a safe choice, and I don't even usually tell people that I had one because it scares me to think that people who have no idea what they're doing might give birth all alone a half hour or more from emergency medical care. It's insane to say that UC is always the safest way to give birth. It can be a safe enough choice for some people in some places (and even then, not every pregnancy). You have people coming onto forums like this going "I'm due yesterday and my midwife dropped me because I'm high risk, can I just stay home and do it alone?" and my answer then is, "You probably shouldn't." Should you UC triplets or a 34 week preemie? No. 

[moonfirefaery]

We seem to have very similar viewpoints then. I'm a huge supporter of UC for low-risk women, but I don't feel it's always the safest way--just usually, for low risk mamas who are comfortable with it, ready for the responsibility, and able to do the research required to make it safe.