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opting out of homework - Page 2

post #21 of 40
Thread Starter 

A couple of people have mentioned that he may need the practice. 

 

He is in the 3rd grade and reads at a 7th grade reading level. He is 4 grade levels ahead in reading.

 

He however, rarely self selects books at his reading level. The reading log in no way addresses this as it only looks at if the child read 20 minutes a day or not. We are working with him on choosing books that are a bit more challenging and closer to his reading level. I choose to devote my time and attention to that facet of his reading and not to mindlessly filling out a reading log that neither my child nor I remember until it's due resulting in us making 1/2 of it up anyway.

post #22 of 40

happymommy1 says:

 

***

I am a classroom teacher. I do not require homework but do give rewards when the kids remember since they are 5 and 6. It is their job, not the parents, parents are their for support not to nag.

***

 

It's ridiculous to expect 5 and 6 year old kids to remember homework.  That's not remotely age-appropriate.  If you think kids are regularly getting it done all on their own, without any involvement from the parents, you're kidding yourself.

 

Rewards can be just as coercive as punishments.

 

Is the homework worth doing?  That should always be the first question.

post #23 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by EFmom View Post


But again, you (the teacher you)  are not respecting the line that is school time and family time.  Why should you have intentions about my family time?  It is  family time that is routinely disrespected, and that is pretty inconsiderate of the family's needs.

 

Do you really think there is any possible chance that a family is not going to have school obligations that must be completed outside of school? No, of course not. How you fit all those obligations into your life is entirely up to you, but the reality is that school-directed learning does not end at dismissal, especially as the students get older.
 

 

post #24 of 40

Quote:
Originally Posted by JollyGG View Post
He however, rarely self selects books at his reading level. The reading log in no way addresses this as it only looks at if the child read 20 minutes a day or not. We are working with him on choosing books that are a bit more challenging and closer to his reading level. I choose to devote my time and attention to that facet of his reading and not to mindlessly filling out a reading log that neither my child nor I remember until it's due resulting in us making 1/2 of it up anyway.

This is entirely anecdotal, but your post made me think of it. When my husband was a first grader, he *refused* to check a book out of the library if it had more than 32 pages. MIL worked as a librarian, and she asked him one day how he picked books because she noticed that the ones he brought home all were too easy. He said, "oh, I look at the last page. If it's bigger than 32, I put it back. If not, I get it." She was appalled and tried for a long time to convince him that it wasn't the best way to pick books! He's now, as an adult, a voracious reader. I don't know how or why that changed, but I think his world view tends toward, "you said I had to get a book, and this is the shortest I can get away with getting."
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by FedUpMom View Post

happymommy1 says:

 

***

I am a classroom teacher. I do not require homework but do give rewards when the kids remember since they are 5 and 6. It is their job, not the parents, parents are their for support not to nag.

***

 

It's ridiculous to expect 5 and 6 year old kids to remember homework.  That's not remotely age-appropriate.  If you think kids are regularly getting it done all on their own, without any involvement from the parents, you're kidding yourself.

 

I agree. I'm not anti-homework, but the idea that the kids remember on their own isn't really accurate of 5 and 6 YO. It's more likely that 1 or 2 kids do remember, lots of kids have parents who remind them, and the rest have parents who don't care/want to do the homework, so the kids don't. I do see a lot of rewards in my son's school that are unfair because of the imbalance in what home life is like for kids this young.  
 

 

post #25 of 40

ecoteat asks:

 

***

Do you really think there is any possible chance that a family is not going to have school obligations that must be completed outside of school?

***

 

Yes, I do think there's a chance, especially in the early grades.  It used to be the norm.

 

I'm not interested in putting up with a practice that makes my kids miserable for no purpose.  I don't care how entrenched it is.  We need true reform.  We need schools that are about what's best for the kids, not just doing whatever the school is accustomed to doing.

 

post #26 of 40

In response to:

 

***

Reading logs haven't made my child hate reading.

 

Agree. My kids liked filling out their reading logs. Reading logs didn't make them hate reading.

***

 

There may be some kids who don't mind reading logs, but there are plenty others who find them to be a major hassle and a turn-off.  Why take the chance?  Reading logs should at least be made optional.

post #27 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by ecoteat View Post

Do you really think there is any possible chance that a family is not going to have school obligations that must be completed outside of school? No, of course not. How you fit all those obligations into your life is entirely up to you, but the reality is that school-directed learning does not end at dismissal, especially as the students get older.
 

 


I think it is entirely reasonable for elementary school children that the family should not be expected to squander family time on homework, which research shows to be of no substantive benefit.  The school has the entire day for school-directed learning.  Family time should be for family-directed learning, relaxation and whatever activities the parents decide.

 

Having observed many typical elementary school days, schools squander a great deal of contact time.  If teachers think they are unable to accomplish what they need to do, schools should be looking at what goes on during the school day, not foisting stuff off on parents to do during family time.
 

 

post #28 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by ecoteat View Post

Do you really think there is any possible chance that a family is not going to have school obligations that must be completed outside of school? No, of course not. How you fit all those obligations into your life is entirely up to you, but the reality is that school-directed learning does not end at dismissal, especially as the students get older.
 

 

Why?

 

 

post #29 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by joensally View Post



Why?

 

 

 

As kids get older, I think that some carefully selected homework is a good thing. My kids are middle school and high school aged and attend an alternative school that prides it's self in not assigning much homework. None the less, my kids do sometimes have things they need to do at home -- such as:

 

  • reading (lit classes use whole novels, not snipets, and kids are to read them on their own time),
  • researching and writing (they write essays and generally need to do those on their own time),
  • some math (not that much, math classes are small and very focused, and include a balance of instruction and practice time).
     

There are some weeks that neither of my kids have any work beyond reading, and some weeks when they are busier. I find the work very appropriate and meaningful.

 

I think it's unrealistic to say that you want your child to get a highschool education and never bring a book home or do any work on their own.

 

None of that has anything to do with 5 year olds!

post #30 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by joensally View Post



Why?

 

 

Partially for the same reason that home-directed learning shouldn't end when a child comes to school (well, except for religious education, but that's a whole different can of worms). In order for kids' learning to be relevant, it needs to connect to their lives somehow. If there is never an opportunity to bring the learning home, how is that going to happen? Ideally, I would love to see a positive connection between home and school where every child knows that their learning is ongoing and for their own personal benefit and necessity. Yes, I know that is a utopian vision, but I can hope, right?

 

Also, early elementary teachers aren't the ones creating the expectations for middle and high school kids, but they are responsible for preparing kids for the upper grades. I teach middle school and the biggest complaint I get from 6th grade parents about the transition to middle school is that their kids didn't have enough homework K-5 to prepare them. And we middle school teachers don't even give that much homework in my school--I rarely give science homework and when I do it's either reading background information to prepare for class or some open-ended kind of assignment. I don't even give much math homework (maybe twice a week, and it's only 15 minutes of practice). It takes years of practice for kids to develop independent responsibility. Waiting to introduce the concept of homework and organization until 5th grade (or whatever--that's just an example) is setting up most families for an unnecessary struggle.


And Linda is right, this doesn't specifically have to do with little kids, but in response to parents who seem put off by the nerve of schools to expect children to take schoolwork home at any age, I have to say you are being unrealistic.

 

post #31 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by ecoteat View Post

And Linda is right, this doesn't specifically have to do with little kids, but in response to parents who seem put off by the nerve of schools to expect children to take schoolwork home at any age, I have to say you are being unrealistic.

 


The other thing is that most kids are out of school by 3:30, and when they are my kids' ages, 9:00 is an early bed time. Plus, there's all weekend. The idea that every minute of that is so precious as family/down time that spending a few hours per week doing some independent school work is a travesty is pretty silly to me.

 

I'm on the side that homework taking a few hours a week is reasonable, but a few hours a day is not.

 

We, as a family, are really enjoying the more reasonable pace of our kids current school over the homework they had last year in a public middle school, which often took 3 hours per night. That was completely over the top. There is a happy medium on this issue.

post #32 of 40

I get all of that, but I think it creates unequal access to education for those kids who, for whatever reason, have parents who can't or won't do it.  I'm not dropping that to get all sidetracked on how parents should care and be involved, but that's just not the reality for a large proportion of children (not just in a particular neighbourhood, but across all neighbourhoods).  Whether it's a language barrier, parents' personal issues, working multiple jobs and having no time...I think that the hours between 9 and 3 are sufficient to offer a solid foundation for children up to, say, grade 4.  I also know many of the arguments against this perspective smile.gif, but this is my "sort of" utopian vision - that school become an equalizer among children.

 

I very much appreciated my daughter's grade 5 teacher who didn't just hand over homework, but provided all kinds of strategies to manage their paper, workload and time.  I also appreciated DD's earlier teachers who did not assign regular homework.  There were specific projects to practice "homework," but it wasn't constant.  This really worked for us.

post #33 of 40

I guess I am having a hard time understanding how a book log disrupts family time.  I have read to my kids since they were babies and it is enjoyable to us as a family activity. Our school has required logs since kindergarten, and most of the time it takes less than a minute to fill out the books read and who read them.  The students have further motivation for turning them in.  They get rewards from the teacher, like free meals at local restaurants and eating with the teacher.  At the end year dd's class  will go swimming and kids that do not turn in their logs have to sit out 5 minutes for each log missed.  We read regardless, so writing it down is not a big deal.  OP, if he is reading at a 7th grade level then why doesn't read at home?  There are tons of books for that level- talk to your middle school reading teacher, if the elementary librarian is at a loss, which honestly surprises me, too.  

 

Ds is in 4th grade and his book log is much more extensive.  Each day the week he has to write about different aspects of the book, such as predictions, questioning, and summary.  I help him with this task because he has a writing disability and it takes about 5 minutes for him to dictate the information.  It is part of our morning routine as we get ready to go to school.  Ds is also required to keep a day planner, which parents are supposed to sign.  Students who do not return signed day planners or logs miss recess.  I am pretty sure the reason the school is doing this is to try to instill habits of success for future grades- not just busy work for parents and teachers.  We treat home work as responsibility, and they get more as they get older.  Whether or not you feel it is a waste time because it your child that has to bear the burden of not handing work in and potential consequences.  

post #34 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by melissa17s View Post

I guess I am having a hard time understanding how a book log disrupts family time.  I have read to my kids since they were babies and it is enjoyable to us as a family activity. Our school has required logs since kindergarten, and most of the time it takes less than a minute to fill out the books read and who read them.  The students have further motivation for turning them in.  They get rewards from the teacher, like free meals at local restaurants and eating with the teacher.  At the end year dd's class  will go swimming and kids that do not turn in their logs have to sit out 5 minutes for each log missed.  We read regardless, so writing it down is not a big deal.  OP, if he is reading at a 7th grade level then why doesn't read at home?  There are tons of books for that level- talk to your middle school reading teacher, if the elementary librarian is at a loss, which honestly surprises me, too.  

 

Ds is in 4th grade and his book log is much more extensive.  Each day the week he has to write about different aspects of the book, such as predictions, questioning, and summary.  I help him with this task because he has a writing disability and it takes about 5 minutes for him to dictate the information.  It is part of our morning routine as we get ready to go to school.  Ds is also required to keep a day planner, which parents are supposed to sign.  Students who do not return signed day planners or logs miss recess.  I am pretty sure the reason the school is doing this is to try to instill habits of success for future grades- not just busy work for parents and teachers.  We treat home work as responsibility, and they get more as they get older.  Whether or not you feel it is a waste time because it your child that has to bear the burden of not handing work in and potential consequences.  



I can tell you how it didn't work in our house. In Kindegarden my child was reading at about a grade 6/7 level based on the tests given by the school. His reading log was supposed to be books he was reading independently or with help to an adult (not ones that an adult was reading to him).  He clearly did not need or want practise reading aloud. He was also very private about his learning and not interested in performing or displaying what he was learning for approval or external rewards. So in trying to meet the teacher's needs for a written log to document a skill he had clearly learned I would have to either 1) badger him about what he was reading, what pages he had covered, what the summary or "main idea" was or 2) make a guess/lie and move on or 3) be honest and tell the teacher that what she was doing was missing the mark for him and actually causing him to read and discuss his book LESS often.  The more insistent the teacher was that he needed to follow her dictates (regardless of the fact that weren't actually achieving anything in his case) the less and less interested he was in complying.  He wasn't motivated by external rewards so he could have cared less about restaurant coupons and probably would have abhorred eating with his teacher. And I would have absolutely fought the teacher on excluding him from a year end trip because of the log issue. That's downright cruel in my opinion and teaches kids all sorts of lessons that have nothing to do with education or reading or responsibility.

 

I think that children need to be self motivated.  My now-homeschooled son has never been forced/co-erced or manipulated into trying to develp habits for success and yet will happily work for hours on his algebra, or history project or writing because they are interesting and valuable to him in their own right - not because someone is going to hand him a coupon for fries and a coke at the end of it. 

 

 

 

post #35 of 40
Thread Starter 


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by melissa17s View Post

I guess I am having a hard time understanding how a book log disrupts family time.  I have read to my kids since they were babies and it is enjoyable to us as a family activity. Our school has required logs since kindergarten, and most of the time it takes less than a minute to fill out the books read and who read them.  The students have further motivation for turning them in.  They get rewards from the teacher, like free meals at local restaurants and eating with the teacher.  At the end year dd's class  will go swimming and kids that do not turn in their logs have to sit out 5 minutes for each log missed.  We read regardless, so writing it down is not a big deal.  OP, if he is reading at a 7th grade level then why doesn't read at home?  There are tons of books for that level- talk to your middle school reading teacher, if the elementary librarian is at a loss, which honestly surprises me, too.  

 

Ds is in 4th grade and his book log is much more extensive.  Each day the week he has to write about different aspects of the book, such as predictions, questioning, and summary.  I help him with this task because he has a writing disability and it takes about 5 minutes for him to dictate the information.  It is part of our morning routine as we get ready to go to school.  Ds is also required to keep a day planner, which parents are supposed to sign.  Students who do not return signed day planners or logs miss recess.  I am pretty sure the reason the school is doing this is to try to instill habits of success for future grades- not just busy work for parents and teachers.  We treat home work as responsibility, and they get more as they get older.  Whether or not you feel it is a waste time because it your child that has to bear the burden of not handing work in and potential consequences.  


My argument wasn't that it is disruptive to family time. Though this is a homework heavy school and he does do all his other homework, making the reading log a bit much when piled on top of the rest. But that really isn't my issue with it. My issues involve the fact that a reading log takes something that is natural and easy for him (reading) and adds an element that is unnatural and forced into it (recording the reading). He tends to read before bed and after school at the sitters and it's just not a natural progression to write it down. He hates writ ting, but loves ready. If he thought he had to write something like you son seems required to do when he finished reading  he'd skip the reading (or only do the very bare minimum). Since we don't write it down right away he forgets what he read over the month (plus since he is reading such easy materials most of the time he may have read 10 book in his 20 minutes of reading each day, he's not going to remember that much). Then the end of the month comes and we end up making up 1/2 the log. Making-it-up teaches the wrong values and is not something I choose to encourage. Plus, at this age, I try to set him up for success. He is honestly just not going to remember to write it down. Even if too you it is a simple 2 minute task every day, it is just not that simple in our household. Even at my age with much more advanced focus skills than he has I would have problems remembering a reading log (in my favor I read longer books so would have fewer to remember). We simply won't remember to write it down. Reading is simply not enough of an event to make it something we take note of, and that is exactly the way I feel it should be.

 

As for his reading level and the materials we are working with him on reading. I feel you misunderstood. His school librarian, his teacher and even his principle are helping to get him books closer to his level that he'll enjoy. He does read every day (how else would he be such a gifted reader). He just doesn't write it down. My point is that I choose to devote my time and energy spent on his reading helping him find books at this level and encouraging him to try them. He reads at a 7th grade reading level but usually chooses books at a 1st or 2nd grade reading level. I have no problem with him reading those books, but do want him to also read stuff that is at least at a 4th or 5th grade reading level (lots of reasons there). My kid can only handle so much guidance/nagging/requests/whatever about a topic. I choose to spend what I have available working on encouraging books I think he will enjoy that stretch him a bit more than his normal choices, not reminding him to write down what he read (plus I find them kinda pointless, since we all read on our own without anyone telling us we have to).

 

The whole system you describe for you kids with writing tons of information about the books, punishments for not doing it, etc. is horrifying to my. It would not have motivated me to read and would have, in fact, discouraged me as a kid. I would not tolerate such a system in my child's classroom. There is something to be said for reading purely for pleasure and turning even leisure reading into a chore is abhorrent to me. I love reading and so does my child. I can't think of a quicker way to kill that enjoyment than the system you describe. Wow. <shudder>

 


Edited by JollyGG - 4/18/11 at 6:50am
post #36 of 40
Thread Starter 


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karenwith4 View Post





I can tell you how it didn't work in our house. In Kindergarten my child was reading at about a grade 6/7 level based on the tests given by the school. His reading log was supposed to be books he was reading independently or with help to an adult (not ones that an adult was reading to him).  He clearly did not need or want practise reading aloud. He was also very private about his learning and not interested in performing or displaying what he was learning for approval or external rewards. So in trying to meet the teacher's needs for a written log to document a skill he had clearly learned I would have to either 1) badger him about what he was reading, what pages he had covered, what the summary or "main idea" was or 2) make a guess/lie and move on or 3) be honest and tell the teacher that what she was doing was missing the mark for him and actually causing him to read and discuss his book LESS often.  The more insistent the teacher was that he needed to follow her dictates (regardless of the fact that weren't actually achieving anything in his case) the less and less interested he was in complying.  He wasn't motivated by external rewards so he could have cared less about restaurant coupons and probably would have abhorred eating with his teacher. And I would have absolutely fought the teacher on excluding him from a year end trip because of the log issue. That's downright cruel in my opinion and teaches kids all sorts of lessons that have nothing to do with education or reading or responsibility.

 

I think that children need to be self motivated.  My now-homeschooled son has never been forced/co-erced or manipulated into trying to develp habits for success and yet will happily work for hours on his algebra, or history project or writing because they are interesting and valuable to him in their own right - not because someone is going to hand him a coupon for fries and a coke at the end of it. 

 

 

 

You put it more succinctly that I did. This /\, except I don't homeschool.

 

post #37 of 40

I agree with previous posters that I want my kids to experience reading as a pleasure.  How much would you enjoy your favorite hobby if you had to fill out paperwork every time you engaged in it?

post #38 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by EFmom View Post




I think it is entirely reasonable for elementary school children that the family should not be expected to squander family time on homework, which research shows to be of no substantive benefit.  The school has the entire day for school-directed learning.  Family time should be for family-directed learning, relaxation and whatever activities the parents decide.

 

Having observed many typical elementary school days, schools squander a great deal of contact time.  If teachers think they are unable to accomplish what they need to do, schools should be looking at what goes on during the school day, not foisting stuff off on parents to do during family time.
 

 



Love it!

 

post #39 of 40



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by melissa17s View Post

I guess I am having a hard time understanding how a book log disrupts family time.  I have read to my kids since they were babies and it is enjoyable to us as a family activity. Our school has required logs since kindergarten, and most of the time it takes less than a minute to fill out the books read and who read them.  The students have further motivation for turning them in.  They get rewards from the teacher, like free meals at local restaurants and eating with the teacher.  At the end year dd's class  will go swimming and kids that do not turn in their logs have to sit out 5 minutes for each log missed.  We read regardless, so writing it down is not a big deal.  OP, if he is reading at a 7th grade level then why doesn't read at home?  There are tons of books for that level- talk to your middle school reading teacher, if the elementary librarian is at a loss, which honestly surprises me, too.  

 

Ds is in 4th grade and his book log is much more extensive.  Each day the week he has to write about different aspects of the book, such as predictions, questioning, and summary.  I help him with this task because he has a writing disability and it takes about 5 minutes for him to dictate the information.  It is part of our morning routine as we get ready to go to school.  Ds is also required to keep a day planner, which parents are supposed to sign.  Students who do not return signed day planners or logs miss recess.  I am pretty sure the reason the school is doing this is to try to instill habits of success for future grades- not just busy work for parents and teachers.  We treat home work as responsibility, and they get more as they get older.  Whether or not you feel it is a waste time because it your child that has to bear the burden of not handing work in and potential consequences.  


And to this I say "BULLSH!T" and "Not MY kid!" 
 

 

post #40 of 40



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by melissa17s View Post

 

 Whether or not you feel it is a waste time because it your child that has to bear the burden of not handing work in and potential consequences.  



See, it's not like that at all, not when you notify the teacher that HW simply is not a requirement for your child.  Availing yourself of the provision of HW opt-out means that there aren't consequences for the simple fact that HW is no longer part of your family's life.  So my child has no burden to bear.

 

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