What do you do if a 5 year old routinely refuses to negotiate and just throws a tantrum instead

[Fillyjonk]

I am really struggling with my 5 1/2 year old at the moment. In a nutshell she absolutely refuses to negotiate, she just throws a temper tantrum. She will be up for an hour and a half at night screaming because she wants something she can't have (like audio books-we live in a small terraced house and we can't make noise at this time of night, and I'm not happy for her to use ear phones). 

She is the middle child of three, all close in age, and so has been exposed to negotiating since birth really, using mainly the faber and maslisch (sp?) techniques. She has always been quite poor at them but at the moment is just not even trying. 

She just throws a tantrum if she isn't getting her own way. And usually this is completely unnecessary. We are a family who will listen and negotiate, but she is refusing to give an inch. With three children, this is not sustainable. I would never say this of a younger child, but really it feels actually quite manipulative. At present we are ending up using time outs with her, simply because I cannot have a 5 1/2 year old (big lungs) in the middle of the (small) house screaming at the drop of a hat. Its unpleasant for all of us, and we've tried everything else. These are really a "least worst" option.

She is a clever child in all the usual academic tick box ways. Although we do extremely minimal work with her (basically what she picks up from her homeschooled big brother, or from conversations) she has learnt to read and do maths and so forth. There are no problems with getting her to do schoolwork, as far as I can work out-she loves it.

I am this morning absolutely furious with her, as she was up for several hours in the middle of the night screaming about not getting her own way. Yet the two previous nights, when she was given a consequence for not screaming (basically that I would not be able to drive her to an activity that she liked if I was woken up in the night) she did not wake anyone up. It wasn't presented as a Consequence, it was and is a fact, I won't drive to non-essential places when I'm that tired.

I would say at present that my 3 year old is substantially better at negotiation than she is-and tbh my 3 year old is hardly brilliant at it.

I really would welcome all thoughts here. 

Edited by Fillyjonk - 4/1/11 at 2:45am

[mamanicki]

This may be an unpopular opinion but I'm of the belief that each child requires customized discipline strategies that best fit their own unique personalities and temperaments. Not all children will be good at negotiating. Trying to use one parenting method for all kids is most likely not going to work. Think about age of weaning, even co-sleeping.

In the same vein, perhaps she's been trying for years to show you that negotiating is a parenting tactic that doesn't work well for her? I have a child who feels very out of control and frantic if given a lot of negotiating power. The more I tried, the more difficult he became. That isn't to say that I keep him on a short leash and control his every move. But I just know that when it comes to almost all big decisions and many smaller ones, he still wants me to take the lead. I have faith that as he grows older he will slowly take more and more of the lead himself but we will never have a more typically described negotiating relationship and that's ok. This is what he feels comfortable with and the best discipline strategy is the one that works best for each individual child.

[ssh]

Originally Posted by mamanicki 

This may be an unpopular opinion but I'm of the belief that each child requires customized discipline strategies that best fit their own unique personalities and temperaments. Not all children will be good at negotiating. Trying to use one parenting method for all kids is most likely not going to work. Think about age of weaning, even co-sleeping.

I agree with this. Also many 5 year old's seem to go through some emotional stuff. My 5.5 year old DD was having some issues with over reacting and getting angry/upset easily when she first turned 5. I taught her some techniques for calming herself, mainly using slow breathing and visualization. Maybe if trying to negotiate with your DD makes things worse, explaining and sympathizing might work better. Maybe she  feels things are unfair because her siblings have better negotiating skills and it seems they get at least part of their way and she doesn't. Some issues at our house are not negotiable. Being loud in the middle of the night for one. Being really loud or mean when angry is another. I basically explain why it's not a good idea and offer sympathy. I would suggest that maybe your DD just doesn't feel heard and that's where the tantrums are coming from, but then again she's 5 and several 5 year olds I know have gotten more intense and louder. It's probably a phase and will go away like the other ones have. My own DD has calmed down in the last couple of months.

[stik]

My 5yo threw a lot of tantrums too, and while her temper has improved dramatically over the past 4 years, she continues to be a person who really doesn't enjoy too much negotiation.  

We worked hard to limit the drama that went with the tantrums.  We stepped back, limited our responses, and waited.  BUT, she was an only child at the time, and not a midnight screamer.  We also noticed a difference when we eliminated nitrates from her diet.  We think they may have been causing headaches that made her really cranky.  The difference was dramatic - it might be worth a shot?

I loved Faber and Mazlish before I had kids.  With my actual children serving as test subjects, however, I can see that sometimes their techniques feed the difficult emotion and prolong conflict and angst.  I'm opposed to conflict and angst, and I think that a lot of kids need guidance about how to temper their emotional reaction to match the magnitude of the situation.  

I think you were on the right track with the consequence for late night screaming, which is a thing for which I simply have no tolerance in 5yos.  (But you can't ignore it - your dd has really hit on something there.)  It sounds like time outs are working for her, and are a reasonable and proportionate response to screaming.  Do you think she might respond well to a token economy with not waking others as the target behavior?  

It also sounds like part of the problem is that your dd doesn't sleep at night.  If she is frequently up in the middle of the night despite a well-established bedtime routine, or if you can't establish a bedtime routine for her no matter what you do, I would encourage you to discuss this issue with your pediatrician.  Normally, 5yos sleep at night.  If they are frequently up screaming, there is a problem and it could be medically treatable.  It could be something simple like lactose intolerance causing gas pain, or tonsils interfering with her night breathing and causing waking.  Do you think there's any possibility she's actually having night terrors?  My dds have each had a couple, and they can look a lot like they're awake, but their rational selves are simply not present.  

[hakeber]

One more for a parent who made it past 5 alive but barely...DS was a m,ajor PITA for about six months there.  But then he felt the same way about me.

I'm going to ask you a question though...it sounds, from your OP, that YOU are not particularly good at negotiation either...I mean...you can't make the sort of noise an audio book would make at night...what are you the Franks hiding from the Nazis?  I mean...it's an audio book, not a punk band.  What is the dilly-oh?  I need more than a terraced house as a reason for living in silence after 8pm...really. Maybe being more creative in solutions might help you both...and some head phones are not that bad for their ears, honestly.

Just now is the time when kids have a mental growth spurt.  They are establishing new parameters of their independence, and as usual this coincides with a deep fear that they are losing the safety of toddlerhood, so they are also at time quite clingy and reverting in their behavior so one, minute they are all "I can do it myself!!!!"  and the next they are all "Will you help me get dressed, mommy, I can't do it!"

It's exhausting, but it doesn't last too long.  Lots of modelling and patience...plenty of patience.  They do not mean to be obnoxious, they just have to be.

Hugs and understanding will get you through and a HUGE sense of humor.  I think the best thing you can do is try to help her find ways to meet her needs, even if you don't feel her needs are real, they are for her (probably most important, autonomy), and help her find solutions, rather than options.  It helped with my DS. (he's not big on negotiations either...he's a problem solver.)

[stik]

I have to respectfully disagree with hakeber.  I feel strongly that 5yos don't get to decide what's OK in the middle of the night, which is when Fillyjonk says her dd's acting out is taking place.  

An audio book with headphones might not be a big deal as a compromise at 7 pm.  The issue is different at 11, and handling of the issue at 7 should probably be shaped by an understanding of how the child is likely to respond when mom and dad announce that it's time to turn the audio book off at 8.  Further, the concern here is not about the child having what she wants or not, it's about the child's behavior keeping the rest of the family awake for half the night.  It also wouldn't hurt for the child to learn a more pro-social approach to dealing with denial and disappointment.  

I think a gentle parent has to consider the needs of the entire family.  The 5yo tantrum thrower is one of 5 people in the household who all need a good night's sleep.  The family needs to find a way to make that available to everyone.  

[Calm]

My DD went through a stage of waking at weird hours, and staying up later than usual.  I would find her bedroom light on when I'd go to the bathroom at 3am and she'd be asleep with a book on her chest.  She never actually bothered me with any of it, just seemed to keep to herself (she is almost 9 now), but it did signal to me that some intervention was required, for her, not any of us.  

I should mention that during her wakeful period, which was when she was about 5 or 6, she had other stresses in her life.  I do the "releasing emotions" tactic, but in this case it was more of a load... she had to do more raging and crying than usual but was holding it in too tightly, not feeling safe enough to release, so the stress affected her sleeping and behaviour instead.  Me, I prefer my kids to rage or cry in my arms, just get it out all at once instead of a slow painful drip of restless nights and obnoxious behaviour.  I had to tease out her emotions to get her to cry about them and in some way release them.  This seemed to knock the whole thing on the head.  Each stage that comes, if it brings behaviour that affects us or her in some detrimental way, it usually means our connection is not strong, and that she needs to release emotions and heal some trauma or fear.  So first port of call is strengthening the connection - often with laughter and play, that works best.  Sometimes a session of laughter and play will alone bring on a torrent of tears, seemingly out of nowhere... but really it was the connection that allowed her to feel safe enough to fall apart.

It is easier with my 3yo son, who cries or rages without inhibition but my daughter has, like most kids, learned to suppress emotions to a degree so it becomes difficult to get them out.  They can come out as "behaviour issues" instead.  Perhaps some crying/raging in arms or at least in your validating, empathetic presence will help move this stage along.  Relaxed, contented, stress-free kids don't tend to have sleeping issues, nor do they need to rage.  These are signs something is in need of releasing.  At that age, it must be with support not alone, or it isn't healing, it just adds more stress/trauma.  

I would not make the discussions about the night time or tantrums, those are just symptoms - it is where the stress is showing in her life - and instead make her feel safe to express with you, be open and inviting for her to release whatever is in her, in safety that no matter how it comes out, you will accept and love her.  At least then you have some control over when and where she explodes.  Sometimes kids create a reason to rage or cry, and if she seems to be "setting the stage" for a tantrum or fight with you, perhaps teasing out the real reason behind all this stress will see the end of it.  Some tears and rage will be inevitable for the completion of it, but knowing what it is will make it not only easier to take, but you'll happily welcome it as the needed release that it is.  Until her inner feelings are seen and validated, she will keep pushing them on you... unaware that's what she is doing.  We do it as adults just the same, only it looks slightly different (my DH says "can I get a hell yeah").  

She sounds like my daughter was - a shaken soda can... it's time to pop the lid!  

[hakeber]

Originally Posted by stik 

I have to respectfully disagree with hakeber.  I feel strongly that 5yos don't get to decide what's OK in the middle of the night, which is when Fillyjonk says her dd's acting out is taking place.  

An audio book with headphones might not be a big deal as a compromise at 7 pm.  The issue is different at 11, and handling of the issue at 7 should probably be shaped by an understanding of how the child is likely to respond when mom and dad announce that it's time to turn the audio book off at 8.  Further, the concern here is not about the child having what she wants or not, it's about the child's behavior keeping the rest of the family awake for half the night.  It also wouldn't hurt for the child to learn a more pro-social approach to dealing with denial and disappointment.  

I think a gentle parent has to consider the needs of the entire family.  The 5yo tantrum thrower is one of 5 people in the household who all need a good night's sleep.  The family needs to find a way to make that available to everyone.  

Well I never said that a 5yo gets to decide what is okay in the middle of the night....I read that it was happening at night (not time specific actually) and the subsequent tantrums over it were errupting in the middle of the night (ie early morning).  That's what I read.   I think as a neighbor, I would rather hear an audio book at 8pm than a crying screaming tantrum at 3am.  Maybe that's just me.

I totally agree that the needs of the whole family have to be met, but it seems to me that if an audio book would be disruptive due to the acoustics of the house, surely a 5 yo in a time out raging and screaming would be even more so...I guess I fail to see how the current solution is meeting the family's needs, ya know? 

Fillyjonk, FWIW, this age with my son was by far more challenging than anything I have faced so far, way worse than the so called terrible twos.  I was ready to lock him in his room until he turned 6 or 26 if that what it took.  I was at my wits end.  It's an awful stage.  The only thing that got me through it was a LOT of hugs and and LOTS and LOTS of help from CNVC.org and the Non-violent communication methods I was practicing with my students and sadly leaving in my classroom.  When I started taking it home I found it was the perfect age to begin these techniques with him.  It really helped to give him words to the feelings he had and attach them to needs that we could work together to fulfill.  I suppose at heart every human is self-interested and manipulative, and our children are certainly no exception, but this is because they have needs that need meeting, and a lot of sad bad mad feelings because those needs are not being met.  The more we work to help them meet their needs the less it feels like they are manipulating us and the more we feel like super parents for helping them find the skills to get their needs met.

When DS is raging (and he still has his days LOL) I sometimes need to send him to his room for a little while alone so that I can get myself centered and ready to meet his needs, ( because often I am exhausted and in no mood to be dealing with somelese's mood because MY needs are not being met)  maybe I have a cool glass of water or a small snack to raise my blood sugar and I usually offer to make him one (I found through this period with him that 75% of the tantrums were traced back to sudden drops in blood sugar or protein levels and could be solved with a glass of milk or a hard boiled egg, weird, right?) and then I go to him and we talk and rages some more and I hold him and then we try to put words to the feelings...Tired, hungry, disappointed, afraid, lonely, frustrated, etc and then we think about why those feelings are happening and brain storm solutions together.  It's hard and tiring and plain exhausting, but your daughter FINALLY is at an age where these sort of conversations can actually be super productive and stay with her as lasting memories of how to solve problems on her own.  Now, I find more and more DS is able to solve problems and sort out negative feelings on his own and it is SO awesome to witness. He still needs help, as we all do, from time to time, but he is so much more independent now.  It seriously blows my mind and I have to say it is a big PTHBPTHBPTHBPTHB in the face to all my friends and co-workers who used to laugh in my face and say "You can't rationaize with a child,  he's just doing it for attention, he's just manipulating you to get his own way.  He doesn't know what's good for him!" etc etc etc. It works, and a lot better, IMNSHO, than repression tactics llike logical consequences for not repressing feelings.  I get it.  I do it too sometimes.  But then we spend the day seeking catharsis and getting to the bottom of the whole mess.

Originally Posted by Calm 

My DD went through a stage of waking at weird hours, and staying up later than usual.  I would find her bedroom light on when I'd go to the bathroom at 3am and she'd be asleep with a book on her chest.  She never actually bothered me with any of it, just seemed to keep to herself (she is almost 9 now), but it did signal to me that some intervention was required, for her, not any of us.  

I should mention that during her wakeful period, which was when she was about 5 or 6, she had other stresses in her life.  I do the "releasing emotions" tactic, but in this case it was more of a load... she had to do more raging and crying than usual but was holding it in too tightly, not feeling safe enough to release, so the stress affected her sleeping and behaviour instead.  Me, I prefer my kids to rage or cry in my arms, just get it out all at once instead of a slow painful drip of restless nights and obnoxious behaviour.  I had to tease out her emotions to get her to cry about them and in some way release them.  This seemed to knock the whole thing on the head.  Each stage that comes, if it brings behaviour that affects us or her in some detrimental way, it usually means our connection is not strong, and that she needs to release emotions and heal some trauma or fear.  So first port of call is strengthening the connection - often with laughter and play, that works best.  Sometimes a session of laughter and play will alone bring on a torrent of tears, seemingly out of nowhere... but really it was the connection that allowed her to feel safe enough to fall apart.

It is easier with my 3yo son, who cries or rages without inhibition but my daughter has, like most kids, learned to suppress emotions to a degree so it becomes difficult to get them out.  They can come out as "behaviour issues" instead.  Perhaps some crying/raging in arms or at least in your validating, empathetic presence will help move this stage along.  Relaxed, contented, stress-free kids don't tend to have sleeping issues, nor do they need to rage.  These are signs something is in need of releasing.  At that age, it must be with support not alone, or it isn't healing, it just adds more stress/trauma.  

I would not make the discussions about the night time or tantrums, those are just symptoms - it is where the stress is showing in her life - and instead make her feel safe to express with you, be open and inviting for her to release whatever is in her, in safety that no matter how it comes out, you will accept and love her.  At least then you have some control over when and where she explodes.  Sometimes kids create a reason to rage or cry, and if she seems to be "setting the stage" for a tantrum or fight with you, perhaps teasing out the real reason behind all this stress will see the end of it.  Some tears and rage will be inevitable for the completion of it, but knowing what it is will make it not only easier to take, but you'll happily welcome it as the needed release that it is.  Until her inner feelings are seen and validated, she will keep pushing them on you... unaware that's what she is doing.  We do it as adults just the same, only it looks slightly different (my DH says "can I get a hell yeah").  

She sounds like my daughter was - a shaken soda can... it's time to pop the lid!  

Thanks, Calm.  Good points.

[Fillyjonk]

thanks for all replies

My original post wasn't that clear (I was tired ;-) ). Actually the word I wanted more than negotiation was discussion. What she does when she is upset is to shut out the whole world, she will literally curl in a ball and put her hands over her ears and scream. She has done this since she was born. What I am  after from her more than negotiation is discussion, and she just refuses to do it. I am aware that this pushes my buttons a bit-my family also did not negotiate or discuss-but I also don't see how we can ever get out of this if she won't talk to me, either in the night or the next morning. 

A big part of the problem is that she doesn't really rage even, she just cries and says "I want x " a lot. If I validate her feelings she screams louder, and this is at 3 in the morning.

Another thing that wasn't clear is that I don't negotiate with her about the screaming. That is non-negotiable-we don't make noise in the middle of the night. What is harder to work out is HOW I stop her from doing this.

I do actually wonder if its hunger. I'm going to try giving her some oatcakes and water to take to bed tonight to see if that helps. 

re stress, tbh that has been my assumption, that there must be some hidden stress in her life...but I've spoken to her, I've made it safe for her to be angry, and all the rest, and honestly, I don't think there IS any underlying stress. I know we all experience stuff differently, but she is with me or dp very nearly 24/7 and I just can't think of what could be stressing her. She has quiet, simple,home-based life, mostly. I've also spoken to her about it, both directly and more obliquely, and I just can't find anything that's upsetting her. I don't think she IS upset, except in the middle of the night. It's not night terrors either as far as I can work out.

re the audio book, I should probably clarify. She wants this at 3 am, not at 8pm (she has audio books til around 9pm if she wants them). We do live in a house with very poor insulation between the walls and there isn't anything we can do about this.As adults we don't listen to the radio, or tv without subtitles past around 9, or play instruments or whatever-its a family rule, and one we need to have for the sake of our neighbours. I am not willing to let her have headphones as I really don't trust her to keep the volume on them down (I do generally trust my kids and I'd trust my other two with this but she would try to turn it up if she thought I was asleep and it WILL damage her hearing to do this) 

I feel very strongly about helping kids learn to live as part of a family and so this is really a hard one for me, as this seems to be profoundly anti-social behaviour. Also, we do have ground rules underpinning the negotiation/discussion, its not a free for all.

[hakeber]

ahhhh....ya know what? I used to do that as a kid, too (sometimes I still do if really really upset).  My mom tried spanking it out of me but needless to say that didn't work very well.  She tells me that she finally started to not discuss things when I was upset.  She would just take me to my room and hold me until I was calm and the NEXT DAY she would engage me in something really fun like baking cookies or making mudpies and then she would discuss it in very hypothetical terms.

She also used to leave a snack and toys out for me in the middle of the night because I had a need to play in the middle fo the night and leaving me alone in the dark to be scared was not working.  She put a little step stool next to the light switch and a snack and a glass of juice on a little chair and I would wake up every night between probably 3am and 4am and have a little discussion with my dolls and maybe do some coloring and then when I was done I'd crawl back into bed and go back to sleep.  She swears I did this almost every night from the age of 2 to about 5. 

Maybe that was weird now that I think about it, but it was a nice way for me to have my needs met without disrupting the needs of the family.  Does your DD share a room?

Another thought...if when she is upset she curls into a ball and will not talk and having people talk at her is over stimulation that she physically tries to block out with her hands, perhaps her stress is a need to be alone in her own space.  If she is with you 24/7...she may need some outside stimulation and perhaps even a little alone time.  Introverts (like myself meaning we get energized by being alone rather than extroverts who are engerized by being around people -- this has little to do with being outgoing or shy.  I am very outgoing, but I am introverted by nature) get sapped by being around people and when we are upset or needing something it is like bamboo shoots under your nails to have someone try to talk to you or discuss your feelings.  You just want to be left the hell alone to figure out how you feel and get up the strength to figure out your needs.  So...just a thought.  She may be really overwhelmed by that much togetherness.  What you see as Anti-social may be her ways to trying to communicate her frustration of being born an introvert in a family full of extroverts.

[ssh]

It sounds like she can't think when she's upset. Is she waking up during the night and wanting to listen to audio books? Maybe she finds it scary being the only one up so she wants the noise of an audiobook. If she's afraid of being awake in the quiet by herself that could explain the screaming. Also needing food is a probable idea. We're quiet after someone is asleep too. I often wake stuff with close caption and our houses acoustics are normal. Since she started sleeping alone, our DD sleeps about 10 hours every night without waking unless she's ill. So we haven't dealt with any waking issues since co-sleeping stopped about a year and a half ago. So I'm just guessing.

[Fillyjonk]

the thing is we're quite flexible on cosleeping. If she wants to come through to us AND be quiet, that's totally fine. She could still have a bed in our room if she wanted. This is new-past two weeks-at night, though she's always been like this. Its not a policy decision that she has her own room per se, its because she wants to go away frequently to stay with grandparents etc and we found that if she was in the habit of sleeping in her own room then she struggled a lot when she was away (to the point when she basically could not go away) 

I'd also say that we're not an especially extrovert family. I'm quite extroverted,  and so is she, but really, just in terms of whether recharging happens with others or alone, her sister, father and brother are not so much extroverts. In any case, although she is with me most of the time, we are very often-like at least half, sometimes all of most days-with other people, other families, either at our house or theirs or a planned group setting or whatever. But these are families who are part of our community and who we mainly know very well and its relaxing for us all to be with them. She does go to kindergarten a few mornings a week and that is her call-she could go less, or more, and we'd work either out for her.

I do think that's an interesting idea that she might need the noise of an audiobook. I wonder if she just misses talking at this time of night. Like I say she can come through to us but of course we are quiet. What she actually seems sometimes to be doing is provoking us into talking-to each other, to her, to her siblings (who she has woken up-they all have to share a room, no way round that). But what do we do? 

[Calm]

I find it interesting on the one hand you've said you think she might be trying to pull people into talking to her, and on the other saying you can't get her into a discussion.  So as a PP suggested, it is possibly that she can't discuss while emotional.  Or is it she won't discuss this issue at any time?  When DD is in the middle of an issue, I can't discuss it with her until she is done releasing, then she becomes accessible.  

 

A big part of the problem is that she doesn't really rage even, she just cries and says "I want x " a lot. If I validate her feelings she screams louder, and this is at 3 in the morning.

This is exactly what we're looking for.  As soon as you validate someone, the key to knowing if you've hit the right chord is if the releasing gets more intense.  Including adults; for instance when I validate a friend, if I strike the right chord, make them feel like I really understand them, that's when they'll start to cry.  Not great at 3am, for sure, but the rest of it is what we look for in healing phases.

Is she getting this kind of one on one with you during the day?  Just looking for other sources for the choice of time of day.  Sour cherries are a rich source of melatonin.  Parents in the know feed their kids sour cherries before bed.  

I like this advice from Naomi Aldort: The Child is Right  

If you're interested in the headphones if you could limit the volume, that is a possibility.  

Instructions on how to limit the volume on an ipod

Kid's earphone store with volume limiters  if you are in the US, you could google for the same in your area.

earbud volume limiter

[Calm]

Montmorency are the cherries with the most melatonin.  Here is an article.

How tart cherry juice helps children sleep.

Dried tart cherries are an easy way to get them into children.  It induces a longer and deeper sleep.  There is lots of info if you google it.  It's worth a try, because having her actually sleep the night is better than the headphones.  

[LynnS6]

Originally Posted by Fillyjonk 

thanks for all replies

My original post wasn't that clear (I was tired ;-) ). Actually the word I wanted more than negotiation was discussion. What she does when she is upset is to shut out the whole world, she will literally curl in a ball and put her hands over her ears and scream. She has done this since she was born. What I am  after from her more than negotiation is discussion, and she just refuses to do it. I am aware that this pushes my buttons a bit-my family also did not negotiate or discuss-but I also don't see how we can ever get out of this if she won't talk to me, either in the night or the next morning. 

It sounds to me very much like she can't process information when she's upset. I'm very much like that and so I empathize. If you see it as an inability rather than an unwillingness, it might help you remain calmer about it. I'll also chime in to say 5 was really hard for us too. Early 6 wasn't much better. 6 1/2 has finally seen an improvement. But there was lots of drama and tears at 5. Part of it is dd's personality -- when she's happy, she's very very happy. She bubbles over with enthusiasm. When she's sad, she's very very sad. I came to the realization several weeks ago that I was enjoying her joyful drama, but the sad drama was driving me batty. But I can't have one without the other. We're working on moderating responses, but we've got years to go, I suspect.

Another gentle question: What's there to discuss? She wants an audiobook, you've said that it's too much noise. So, where does she go from there? She may be refusing to discuss things because she thinks that the lines are drawn.

What about other mediums? Could you draw pictures together? Act out scenarios with stuffed animals? My dd finds this very powerful -- she gets to play out the issues in a 'safe space'. She gets to play the role of the person with power, or the role of the person without power, but it's a low stress situation.

Originally Posted by Fillyjonk 

I do think that's an interesting idea that she might need the noise of an audiobook. I wonder if she just misses talking at this time of night. Like I say she can come through to us but of course we are quiet. What she actually seems sometimes to be doing is provoking us into talking-to each other, to her, to her siblings (who she has woken up-they all have to share a room, no way round that). But what do we do? 

I was going to suggest that. What about gentle music at night?

Or headphones. They make headphones especially for kids that protect their hearing. Examples: Sony and Califones. We've got the Sony ones for dd (age 6) because sometimes she likes to listen to things, and her brother is hypersensitive to sound (as am I). Dd and dh have a much higher need for noise. Dd falls asleep to music, and will often turn on the radio softly when she comes into our room at night. I'm OK with that. She knows which button is tuned to the 2 stations I think are OK (soft rock or classical). I fall asleep to the BBC World Service, but she doesn't like that because she actually listens to the content and finds it too scary. So, she knows how to turn it on, push the preset button and go back to sleep.

[hakeber]

Originally Posted by Fillyjonk 

the thing is we're quite flexible on cosleeping. If she wants to come through to us AND be quiet, that's totally fine. She could still have a bed in our room if she wanted. This is new-past two weeks-at night, though she's always been like this. Its not a policy decision that she has her own room per se, its because she wants to go away frequently to stay with grandparents etc and we found that if she was in the habit of sleeping in her own room then she struggled a lot when she was away (to the point when she basically could not go away) 

Can you clarify these bolded lines.  I do not follow what you are saying.  Which part is new, but has also always been like this?  What I think I see is that she has her own room, but could sleep with you, but chooses not to, but then later you say she SHARES a room...I'm confused.  Then you say if she sleeps in her own room she struggles when she goes away?  Does she share a room at Grandma and Grandpa's or is she alone there?  I don't follow this statement.

I'd also say that we're not an especially extrovert family. I'm quite extroverted,  and so is she, but really, just in terms of whether recharging happens with others or alone, her sister, father and brother are not so much extroverts. In any case, although she is with me most of the time, we are very often-like at least half, sometimes all of most days-with other people, other families, either at our house or theirs or a planned group setting or whatever. But these are families who are part of our community and who we mainly know very well and its relaxing for us all to be with them. She does go to kindergarten a few mornings a week and that is her call-she could go less, or more, and we'd work either out for her.

I do think that's an interesting idea that she might need the noise of an audiobook. I wonder if she just misses talking at this time of night. Like I say she can come through to us but of course we are quiet. What she actually seems sometimes to be doing is provoking us into talking-to each other, to her, to her siblings (who she has woken up-they all have to share a room, no way round that). But what do we do? 

[Tjej]

We also have the headphones where you can limit the volume - they work great and weren't particularly expensive.  Ours are for kids specifically - over the head old-style headphones with a volume thing on the cord (which I set when we bought it). 

Not that the headphones solve all your problems, but they would be an option.  I think ours were $15.

Tjej

[One_Girl]

Have you tried talking to her about the problem when she is calm and asking her what she thinks should happen.  My dd hated negotiating and she also went through a nasty tantrum phase.  What helped was to talk to her about the problem and why it was a problem then let her help me come up with a consequence for when it happens again (you could probably also tell her the consequence if she is coming up with outlandish ones that you aren't comfortable with).  After that when she was at the beginning of a fit I would ask her if she was choosing to stop or to have the consequence (I can't remember the one she chose).  It took only a couple times of this and following through for her to see that she could use self control and that things did go better.

I found that for my dd there are times when negotiating works well and times it doesn't.  Bedtime, before meals, and when she is really set on one way are all times when she needed a set routine without negotiating.  She also needed to be introduced to negotiating with very little steps and I had to say "let's find a compromise" at the first sign of the tantrum then make sure I compromised in a way that was very favorable to her.  She saw me telling her to negotiate as me telling her she wasn't going to get her way and she seemed to feel like she never got her way so I really had to let her see that she was getting her way before she became willing to try it regularly.  Now she is 8 and a negotiating pro but our negotiations are not skewed in her favor.  She can take hearing no without complaint or a meltdown and move on to other things.  A few years really made a huge difference in terms of tantrums and her willingness to negotiate. 

The book on tape may be your dd's way of escaping from the chaos that comes with having siblings.  If you can find a way to honor that need by using headphones that may help decrease some of the tantrums because you will be giving her an outlet she needs to unwind. 

[MrsH]

Is it possible that your DD is a Highly Sensitive Person, as explained by Elaine Aron?  "A highly sensitive child is one of the fifteen to twenty percent of children born with a nervous system that is highly aware and quick to react to everything. This makes them quick to grasp subtle changes, prefer to reflect deeply before acting, and generally behave conscientiously. They are also easily overwhelmed by high levels of stimulation, sudden changes, and the emotional distress of others."

There's a questionnaire on her website, and if it turns out that she does seem to match that personality trait it's well worth getting the copy of the book.  It really helps to understand and value this trait, and would also allow you to find some ways to respond to your DD with more understanding.  Just wanted to throw that possibility out there.  It sounds like a very frustrating situation!

[PhillyMama]

Fillyjonk, I wonder if a noise machine would help your daughter with nighttime quiet?

My daughter is very sensitive to silence when it's dark, so we bought her a small noise machine that is next to her bed.  It has selections for different noises - ocean, white noise, heartbeat, rain, etc.   DD says she doesn't feel alone in her room when she wakes in the middle of the night (she likes the heartbeat).

We bought it at Bed Bath & Beyond for $20.

Thank you, MrsH, for the link to Aron's website.   I've suspected that my DD is highly sensitive and will pick up the book - I think it will help my (non-sensitive) husband understand DD's perspective a it more.