What do you do if a 5 year old routinely refuses to negotiate and just throws a tantrum instead - Page 2

[Calm]

Originally Posted by MrsH 

Is it possible that your DD is a Highly Sensitive Person, as explained by Elaine Aron?  "A highly sensitive child is one of the fifteen to twenty percent of children born with a nervous system that is highly aware and quick to react to everything. This makes them quick to grasp subtle changes, prefer to reflect deeply before acting, and generally behave conscientiously. They are also easily overwhelmed by high levels of stimulation, sudden changes, and the emotional distress of others."

There's a questionnaire on her website, and if it turns out that she does seem to match that personality trait it's well worth getting the copy of the book.  It really helps to understand and value this trait, and would also allow you to find some ways to respond to your DD with more understanding.  Just wanted to throw that possibility out there.  It sounds like a very frustrating situation!

I started a thread here in 2004 called Mothering the Highly Sensitive Child.  It was MASSIVE, and went for years.  I was about to link it as it had been so helpful for so many, but I can't find it.  In fact, what I did find were about five threads asking where that thread went to.  For my own interests I'll ask a mod how to search for threads older than one year but if I find it I'll come back and link it.

[madskye]

I'm not sure if you are dealing with more sensory issues than I was but DD started throwing tantrums when she was three, and by 5 and a half they had just gotten worse.  She would just scream and scream if she didn't get her way.  It was awful.  The book, The Explosive Child really helped me.  I highly recommend it if you feel like you are dealing with power struggles, and you don't feel that your DD is learning how to deal with her feelings constructively, talking about it makes it worse, time outs make it worse, etc..

One really simple thing--I can usually see her winding up for the tantrum. A lot of it is timing.  Now, instead of getting into it and trying to reason with her, I will often just say gently "Hey, you seem really upset. What's going on?" And then open my arms and give her a hug.  90% of the time that takes care of it.  And really--this is a kid who spent 2+ years screaming bloody murder at me.  It's a tremendous turnaround here, so I can't help but recommend the book.  It helped us all so much. 

[Calm]

Originally Posted by madskye 

One really simple thing--I can usually see her winding up for the tantrum. A lot of it is timing.  Now, instead of getting into it and trying to reason with her, I will often just say gently "Hey, you seem really upset. What's going on?" And then open my arms and give her a hug.  90% of the time that takes care of it.  

Simple logic really.  Although I seem to be yelling down an empty hall when I say this stuff, love cures all.  Kids are people too.   "How would I like to be treated if I was doing this?"  They need support through their emotions.  When we think these things through with compassion as our goal, it all becomes very simple.  If we can truly put ourselves in another's shoes, the solutions become more nurturing and less about short term goals.

[madskye]

Calm, yes to what you said.  For me, it was just a shift between trying to help her "work through" her feelings--by talking or compromising first, and shifting to first taking care of her emotional needs (the hug) and then, when the situation is diffused, coming up with a compromise.  Once DD got into the heat of it, she couldn't let go and reason.  But now, it's like we took a pause and she's able to come at things much differently.  Maybe the book, maybe a little maturity leap on her part--I'll never know!  But I am glad that the tantrums are over.

[hakeber]

Originally Posted by Calm 

Simple logic really.  Although I seem to be yelling down an empty hall when I say this stuff, love cures all.  Kids are people too.   "How would I like to be treated if I was doing this?"  They need support through their emotions.  When we think these things through with compassion as our goal, it all becomes very simple.  If we can truly put ourselves in another's shoes, the solutions become more nurturing and less about short term goals.

That is so true, and I really don't want to raise a kid who thinks he is not allowed to have certain feelings.  Whenever DH defends our parents' way of repressing tantrums and demanding emotional stability with the phrase "Look at us, we turned out okay!"  I always give him this look:

and ask him to think about how he handled his last emotional meltdown...usually the answer is too much alcohol, raging at store clerk over the price of bananas or some similar event, or punching a fist into a wall...is that what we are defining as healthy choices?  Really?

It's hard not to pass on our own legacies and it's hard to have the amount of patience with children that is really needed (i mean once a week or month the average compassionate person can handle 3-4 times a day is like "enough already!" am I right?)  but I try to remind myself of two things:

a) if I need a time out to collect my compassion and then go in to the fray, that's okay...it's not about a battle of wills.  I'm not giving in by going in to them. It's about helping them and finding a solution that works for everyone, not winning or losing control. They need my help and I am uniquely qualified to help them.  They are not trying to manipulate me, they are trying to get their needs met. 

b) it's not going to last forever.  There will be a time when tantrums are only once a day, and then once a week and eventually hardly at all and before I know it they will be having them so infrequently I won't even be the person they turn to for support and help.  The more patient I am and less I try to get them to shut up and "behave" the more likely they will get through the other side of this faster and more capable of handling their feelings.

That's what I tell myself. 

I think it's important to admit here that I'm not perfect at this, I'm still learning, and I still have days where my tantrums clash with my children's tantrums or my husband's and the whole house melts down.  We're only human.  But it helps to remember that part of being human is having emotional reactions to things beyond our control.  Feelings are okay, and expressing those feelings (in ways that do not harm others) is an important part of connecting with our humanity, and learning how to apologize genuinely to others when our expressions DO hurt others is also an important step.

[pitchfork]

I just want to second the notion that *some* kids, especially HSP ones, might find negotiating too scary, too much power, and feel more comfortable with some not negotiable items. It seems like responding well to a cosequence might be a clue. FWIW, i have long been a faber/maslish, and UP parent but am recently finding that my (highly sensitive and SPD) 5yo is having a similar response to things. He is able to reel in the tantrums when he has a consequence like the one you mention in your original post. I actually came to the GD board today to help sort out some natural and logical consequences and also some natural structural, procedural things that might help him (we put away toys before we watch a tv show) because he has so much trouble, crying and demanding whatever it is he is fixated on. For my DS also, I know it is some OCD type stuff with his SPD, so i think i am having to accept that my ideals may have to shift some, from only totally natural consequences (you dont wear your coat you get cold) and NVC/negotiation and "would you be willing to" type interactions to more things in his life that are not negotiable, to give him a framework in which to feel safe.

Good luck getting to the bottom of this for your DD mama, sounds like you are working hard for her!

[LynnS6]

Originally Posted by pitchfork 

I just want to second the notion that *some* kids, especially HSP ones, might find negotiating too scary, too much power, and feel more comfortable with some not negotiable items. It seems like responding well to a cosequence might be a clue. FWIW, i have long been a faber/maslish, and UP parent but am recently finding that my (highly sensitive and SPD) 5yo is having a similar response to things. He is able to reel in the tantrums when he has a consequence like the one you mention in your original post. I actually came to the GD board today to help sort out some natural and logical consequences and also some natural structural, procedural things that might help him (we put away toys before we watch a tv show) because he has so much trouble, crying and demanding whatever it is he is fixated on. For my DS also, I know it is some OCD type stuff with his SPD, so i think i am having to accept that my ideals may have to shift some, from only totally natural consequences (you dont wear your coat you get cold) and NVC/negotiation and "would you be willing to" type interactions to more things in his life that are not negotiable, to give him a framework in which to feel safe.

Yes, alas, sometimes kids don't respond as they do in books.

One of my HS children absolutely needed rewards (he was far too scared to go outside his comfort zone to ever earn consequences) to learn some things. Reward charts are not something I like or recommend. And yet he needed the structure of seeing his progress. I got him a book called "1st Grade Fun" to do a on a plane once, and he was thrilled because it had little stickers you could put on the path for each page you completed. The good news is, that as he's ages, we don't need to the rewards/consequences stuff anymore. His sensory stuff is under control, and he's learned through rewards and our encouragement that he is comfortable trying a few new things or learning a new skill. He feels proud of his accomplishments and has really blossomed. He's 9 now, and I haven't used any rewards since he was 6. But for a while, he loved those.

Ironically, my other highly sensitive child is completely unmotivated by rewards. She's the one that needs to know when there's no room for negotiation. It's kind of like her mind is spinning out of control and she needs a firm something to bump up against to get it back down to earth. It's a painful bump, but in the end, it's what she needs. But when she's out of control, she's completely illogical and cannot reason or negotiate. Once she's stopped spinning out of control, she's fine. I think her mind can see so many possibilities that she gets overwhelmed.

[pitchfork]

Originally Posted by LynnS6 

< my other highly sensitive child is completely unmotivated by rewards. She's the one that needs to know when there's no room for negotiation. It's kind of like her mind is spinning out of control and she needs a firm something to bump up against to get it back down to earth. It's a painful bump, but in the end, it's what she needs. But when she's out of control, she's completely illogical and cannot reason or negotiate. Once she's stopped spinning out of control, she's fine. I think her mind can see so many possibilities that she gets overwhelmed.

Thanks for the reminder that they are kids, not books. it helps with the guilt...this description of your dd describes my ds to a "T". I feel like I am really having a big shift in awareness around what he needs and why his behaviour is the way it is, and learning to give him the limit to bump up against and then ride it out. Not so fun. . Glad to hear it gets easier. I was thinking of adding in some "power games" from the Raising our Children Raising Ourselves" book too, to balance the authority with a playful way for him to feel in control sometimes...

[Fillyjonk]

thanks for all replies and sorry its taken me a while to respond, have been away.

I don't think she is a highly sensitive child or that she is overwhelmed by stimuli. I just don't have that vibe from her. I do get that from my youngest child a little, but not her.

Clarification on sleeping arrangements. Am a bit confused. She normally shares with her siblings, a slightly older brother and a slightly younger sister. However sleeping arrangements are really flexible round here. If dp is away, or if someone wants to come in with us, we sort it out. Its not an issue. The problem that we have is that we have a small house and small rooms and having several kids in with us each night means we really don't get a good nights sleep, UNLESS we do a more permanent furniture move. Which we'd do, it's not an issue, but we can't do that every night (the beds will fall apart, aside from anything else, they are on their last legs as it is!). Our sleeping arrangements are really flexible. We have rules about letting people sleep, and making sure people get enough sleep, but we don't much care where people sleep.

re the time with me, I've pondered this but actually I think she gets relatively a lot. She is in kindergarten 2 mornings a week, and aside from that she is basically with me, or me and dp. Because I have 3 kids, I do get a fair bit of alone time with each as usually the other 2 can be persuaded to go off and play together. She loves to play violin or piano duets, so we do a lot of that. 

The audiobooks thing is so hard. It's come out of the blue. I have been kind of assuming that she has some underlying need, but I can't work out what it could be. I should point out that she can actually read fairly well, so its not like she can't put a torch on (or come into the hall and put the light on) and read the books.

The hard thing is that aside from this thing at night and just refusing to discuss stuff, she is lovely. TBH I don't think I am trying to repress her. I'm asking her, at 5, not to scream her head off at 2 in the morning...but I'm not telling her her emotions are invalid. And I'm trying to discuss them the next day and getting nothing. I do the whole , " you want an audiobook,", etc stuff with her-I do my best to validate her. At which point she often screams even louder. We have neighbours with little kids and live in a typical UK terrace (rubbish insulation. We can hear conversations next door with ease)

We are, I'd say, a very logical family. No one aside from her has tantrums past age 3. Dp and I do not often shout at each other. Not that i think there is anything wrong with shouting really, I just think that between us it woudln't achieve much. We discuss things calmly. It is possibly quite hard to be in this family for her if she is naturally quite exuberant in emotions and there is no clear model for how to be like this.

I will look into the noise limitation headphones after payday ;-) . Noise machine sounds interesting too...I wonder if i can find (free!) white noise on the computer?

[hakeber]

Originally Posted by Fillyjonk 

I wonder if i can find (free!) white noise on the computer?

I use the radio on a static station for my DD at night.

[One_Girl]

Does she sleep a lot to compensate for being up until 2 a.m.?  If not she may not be getting the sleep she needs and that may be a lot of the problem.  If she is a child who needs more of a routine she may also be reacting from that.  My dd is very predictable and doesn't do well without a routine.  When she was younger she was much worse about having to have routine than she is now that she is 8, but she still really needs a basic routine.  For a child that needs routine staying up until 2 some days and being able to sleep in then having that routine interrupted on other days for school just wouldn't work, even a vacation can be a nightmare if it isn't planned around the important parts of the routine and I always notice a lot of changes in behavior when my work or school schedule change and we have to tweak the routine.  If she is the only child still having the fits and you haven't found anything else causing them I really suggest you look into trying to put some routine into her days for a month or so to see if that helps.  It is hard to have a child who needs routine when you don't, but life is so much nicer when you accommodate that need.

Also, even if she reads well she may like the book on tape better, especially at night, because the material is at a higher level that matches her comprehension abilities or because she doesn't have to work hard to hear a good story.  Going out to the hall in the middle of the night to read a book to yourself is much more laborious than just listening to a story someone else is reading.