For the first time i wonder if i should seek help from a child psycologist :(

[Shami]

Maybe it's me and my problem, maybe i am not handling things properly.  I am just as my end and i lost my temper in the middle of the night last night.  this might get long.

I did all the baby b's of attachment parenting read many of the books recommended by mom's on this site.  We have be co sleeping in the same bed since she was about two months old.  For the first two months of her life she slept in an arm's reach cosleeper.  We moved her into our bed around two months of age.

She transitioned of her own free will to her big girl bed at age two.  I did some bed hopping, but i felt she was on her way to becoming fully independent in her own room.

The problem is that she has never been able to just lay down and fall asleep. We have always held her on our shoulder to for her to sleep.

I nursed her until nearly her third birthday.

Somewhere around two and a half i told her i couldn't rock her anymore because my shoulder and daddy's hurt too bad.  It was the truth.

I laid in bed with her for two weeks.  Every night she flipped and flopped for 2-3 hours unable to lay down and an go to sleep.  I did not rock  her for those two weeks.  MAn that was a suffering for us both.  I had a routine in place, but it didn't prepare her for relaxing to lay down.  Then i tried sitting in a chair with her in bed.  Nope.

HER PROBLEM IS THAT SHE WILL NOT LAY DOWN.  I don't know if it is too much energy or what.  I stopped purposely giving her naps so that she would fall a sleep at night.  I had to rock her for her naps too.  She is too heavy to hold anymore.  Our shoulders hurt permanently.

So I began to think that *I* was too much stimulation and that if i wasn't around it would help.  Daddy tried to do it, but he wasn't structured  enough to keep a routine.  That did not work at all.

So as a last ditch effort, I read Ferber's latest book.  I don't think i am supposed to talk about it on this forum, so i don't know what to say.  It was horrible.  She did fall asleep quickly, but she had stressful poop every night, several times at bed time.  Kind of like when you have to give a speech and it makes you go poop a lot.  At dusk her belly would hurt and she would go poop several times.  I did his method for 12 long days and at the end i had a child afraid of bugs and monsters.  And she began biting her nails.  I feel horrible about it.

So she came fully back to bed with us.  I felt i needed to help her heal from that incident.  It took about a month, but she is no longer afraid and she does not bite her nails.

When I refuse to rock her now, she flips and flops and gets up out of our bed.  I started giving her timeouts for getting out of bed.  It's just crazy.  I lay there WITH her and she doesn't want to lay down.  It is like she is afraid to lay down and close her eyes.  I got a sesame street dvd about helping them sleep.  Big bird gives a bunch of ways to help them relax and what they can do to help them selves go to sleep.  She only watched it once and didn't want to watch it again.  But i did implement some of the relaxation methods with her to no avail.

It's like she requires movement to fall asleep.  She has always done this little scrunchy thing with her legs while we rock her.

If i get up before her in the AM she comes and tells me it hurts her feelings that i left her alone in the bed.  I have no idea what to do next.  I am 9 weeks pregnant and my husband thinks we need to help her get in her own room before # 2 arrives.

Do i need a professional to help me, like a child psycologist.  I am just so distraught over it all. Thank you if you made it all the way through.  I tried not to leave anything out so that you wouldn't suggest anything i have already done.

[scottishmommy]

I'm no expert, so please take my advice with a grain of salt. Is there anyway you could get a big comfy glider to rock her to sleep in? My dd is a big 2 year old (33 lbs and 38" tall) and there is plenty of room in our glider for her to sort of snuggle up next to me. I don't have to hold her the whole time. We have a dutalier. I see them at thrift stores all the time. Other than that I don't know. This is hard! One other thing I would say is that you may want to get DH to do all the nighttime stuff now. I'm 15 weeks pregnant and DH has totally taken over nighttime. At first it was awful. DD would scream for her mommy. But now, she just whimpers a little and crawls onto DH's chest and passes out. He gets her to sleep in under ten minutes. It used to take me 45 minutes of nursing to get that kid to sleep. Also we aren't going to worry about getting DD in her own bed before the baby comes. It's just not a big priority for us. We have a king size bed so I figure we have the room. Is that an option for you? I know for us it has taken a lot of pressure off. I know your DD was sleeping independently so that may seem like major back tracking to you. I doubt that you need to see a child psychologist. I think a lot of kids have trouble sleeping. If it would make you feel better maybe you should see one, but your DD sounds pretty typical to me. Good luck!

[Friday13th]

My DS is a few months younger and it takes him a while to stop flopping around and get comfy too.  He sleeps in a toddler bed, sidecarred to our bed.  He gets a few minutes to flop around while we lay next to him, then he needs to lay still and try to relax.  If he keeps flopping around we move to the other side of the bed.  We probably say "you need to lay still to fall asleep" a zillion times and if we didn't have DS2 in there too I'd probably leave the room for a bit if he continued to flop around.  I would try just being really consistant, it's time to lay down and go to sleep.  Over and OVER and OVER.  And if you're getting really frustrated, step out of the room for a minute.  At 3 I don't think you need to (or really could) do CIO like with a baby and they're certainly old enough to understand you can't rock them anymore and they need to lay in bed.  I'd treat it like any other, boundary testing, 3 year old behavior and help her lay down as many times as necessary until she got it.

[Shami]

Friday,What do you mean by help her lay down? I tried the physical laying her down and it was horrible. She became combative and pinching and so angry. that's when she was 2 1/2 and i decided to just lay there with her, which was 2-3 hours long. ME laying there in the dark for 2-3 hours for 2 weeks straight. She never improved. I understand the testing of boundaries, but it seems like this is in a different ballpark. I mean that she almost seems incapable of just laying down and closing her eyes. She has to be moving at all time. She just keeps saying to me, I can't fall asleep. I say the same thing over and over. You have to lay down to fall asleep. YOU have to close your eyes to fall asleep. You have to learn how to fall asleep and mama will teach you. She just keeps moving, flipping, flopping, complaining, getting up...until i break down and rock her. The worst is when she wakes in the night and begins to cry to be rocked and i have NO strength to do it. The easiest and fastest is if i rock her to sleep. The recliner would be nice, but it keeps the problem going. I just think at 3 1/2 I should have been able to teach her how to get in HER bed and lay herself down for sleep. sigh. I feel like such a failure at this. Even if she stayed in MY bed, i think she should be able to lay herself down and stay there. For crying out loud, what ever bed it is, please LAY DOWN! What makes me so mad is that I thought cosleeping was the best way to get a child to develop a healthy trust and eventually a healthy independence to do it themselves. That's what attachment parenting method claims to do. I have a lot of friends and all did the crib and all kids just lay down and go to sleep. Still in my heart, i believe that biologically the best place for baby to be is right next to mama, but the outcome is not what i thought. NOW number 2 is coming and it is causing me to consider a crib, but still in my heart i don't think that is the best place especially to prevent SIDS. Basically to stop her need for rocking i just have to stop and never cave in no matter if it takes 3 hours for her to fall asleep. That is what i tried at 2 1/2 for two weeks of suffering, and i finally decided maybe she was too young. Now at 3 1/2 maybe i should try that again. I realize that when i try something i should do it for at least 2 weeks, but when it doesn't improve AT ALL i think it not right or she is too young. Maybe i need to give it 30 days? Thanks to both of your for responding, i don't want to seem like i don't appreciate it, but it just seems like i have done it all already with no improvement. I just want to think outside the box and i can't see the solution. The only solution to me is to let her sleep with us forever. Hubby has gone along so far, but he really would prefer that she goes to her own bed. I am in between and could go either way. Why is this so hard?

[quantumleap]

You sound desperate, and believe me, I've been there! Completely irrationally, our dd started sleeping a LOT better AFTER the birth of her little brother. We also had to rock her every single time, but now dh can just rock for a minute or two and then lie down with her, and night time wakings only involve telling her to lie down, or her crawling on to dh's chest. Hang in there, it will get better, or you will adapt. Try to just deal with the problem at hand - there's time later to panic about how things will be with the new baby!

Re the motion thing - would you consider letting her sleep in a hammock? Would that be to radical of a departure from a bed for her to settle? You can get eye hooks that screw in to studs (corners are good places to anchor them) at the hardware store. The hooks rated to 250lbs are about 3$. I'm sure you can find a hammock yourself, and they're actually quite comfortable. It took me a good while to get used to beds again after I slept in a hammock in Central America for several months. Initially, you could rock it, but eventually, she'll be able to give a little kick or whatever and get it swinging herself. It might work.  

[SustainablParentng]

One idea that I can think of that helps my ds and dd is to make sure they get plenty of outdoor playtime during the day - like a good couple hours of running and active play (either at a playground with other kids or bike riding or kite flying or tag etc.) I know the weather hasn't been the most pleasant for this but it truly helps us.

Another line of thought that I wanted to throw out there (and let me apologize in advance if this is so what you do not want to hear right now) is the fact that we do not "teach" our children how to sleep. It's a requirement for life like breathing and does not need to be taught. Unfortunately our society has expectations for infant/child sleep that do not align with human biology. So what this makes us do is struggle and fight with our lo's until they finally "learn" how to sleep like adults. I am in no way trying to find fault with you or what you have done I simply feel that so many of us adults find fault with normal childhood behaviors because of some false expectation that we have. Sure you can "train" an infant to sleep on it's own through the night through different techniques of what basically amounts to baby torture - but you chose the more caring and biologically appropriate way of dealing with nighttime parenting. For me, whenever it feels like I'm just banging my head against the wall because of some behavior or situation that is not working with my children I find it helpful to just simply try to change my perspective. This is especially true with sleep because as we all know you simply cannot force or make someone sleep.

Also, so much is going to change between now and the arrival of your new baby - try not to stress too much about it.

Again, I apologize if this is soooo not what you want to hear but sometimes we have to be reminded that the only thing we truly control is ourselves so if it is change we seek then maybe we need to change our selves (or our expectations &/or perspective)

[dairy2dogs]

Is your dh handy?  There is a rocking bed video on youtube.  A man rigged up a regular twin size bed so it rocks back and forth.  I think the hammock is a good idea too.  My siblings and I slept in hammocks when camping as kids.  I remember really loving it.  My mom made them. 

[Drummer's Wife]

What happens if you just let her stay up until she passes out?  Maybe she gets tired and hysterical and demands to be rocked, I dunno, just figured I would ask.  I would rather let my kid stay up really late than spend 2-3 hrs a night laying in the dark pleading with them to calm down, stay still and fall asleep.  Maybe a quiet activity, or a DVD, even?  Do you have a set bedtime?  Or do you start this routine once she is ready to go to sleep?  Or is she not really ready at that point?

Hope you get some helpful advice here.  Hang in there; as rough as it is, at least you know it won't be forever.  I, too, would be a bit stressed though with a new baby on the way.  Night-time parenting with two can be challenging, even without sleep issues.  There was a year when I was tandem nursing two and I swear I didn't sleep more than an hour at a time.

[Shami]

Selkat, interesting thought about the hammock. My dh will think it's crazy, but it's not him getting up with her and rocking her all the time. he helps when i am too tired, but it's usually me. I'll bring it up just to see his reaction. Dairy, dh is not handy at all, but if we had the money we could probably hire someone to do it. Interesting idea as well. I have tried to show her how to lay on her side and rock a little. I do this when i am fidgety and cannot calm down. Sustainable, no apology necessary. I understand the principle and i have always felt that there are some things you can't make a kid do, nor should you have to, that is, poop, eat and sleep. These three things i always felt were in the biological realm and it was my job to create a healthy atmosphere for pooping, eating, and sleeping and it would happen naturally. Well 2 outta 3 ain't bad, i guess. She's got the pooping and eating down pat. Now, sustainable, i am not so sure if there isn't some teaching involved. I teach her about food and what is healthy and even told her that sometimes pooping hurts, but it's all better as soon as it is out. sorry, tmi, but i think there is a lot of teaching going on in every area of a child's life, even sleeping. I have been teaching her by showing her how i lay down and close my eyes and think happy thoughts or count. Maybe we are thinking of different things. I was never comfortable with training in the sense of letting her cry. However, i have heard mom's say that their kiddo needs to flop and fuss for a few minutes before they settle in to sleep. Well, i never ever let her even fuss for a minute to see if that is what she needed. I always held and rocked and nursed. Wondering if i should have tried letting her flop and fuss a bit while being with her just to see if that is what she needed.

[Shami]

oops in my last post i addressed three of you but it's not that clear because somehow there are no paragraphs. hope you all see it

[bonamarq]

I have always been a 'mover' when falling asleep - my parents certainly didn't rock me so I rocked myself - I did this every single night and throughout the night when in light sleep - I did this until, as an adult I slept with my partner in bed and knew I couldn't - for a long time I would even 'revert' to it when ever I was alone in bed for a few nights

Now I find myself HAVING to rub my feet under the covers to get myself to sleep -

the point of all of this is maybe you dd is like me - and you need to teach her to use some sort of acceptable movement that will allow her to fall asleep - I would perhaps try this while you lay down next to her - and let her know you are not angry with her or impatient - I lay down with my dd and ANY time I am impatient and eager to get her to sleep 'quick' it's like she picks right up on that and takes twice as long....

and ditto to what pp said about lots of good physical activity during the day - I would also try a good massage after lights out and just before you lay down... teach dh to do this too so it doesn't always fall to you

good luck

OH and don't beat yourself up over how you have 'created' this - chances are she'd have been a really terrible sleeper no matter what...

[Spring Lily]

It sounds like you're trying to make 2 transistions, getting her back in her room and getting her to sleep without rocking on your shoulder. Work on one at a time. I'd start putting her in her room first--and stay with her if you need to until she feels secure in there again. Then start on the rocking thing.

Someone asked above if you have a rocking chair big enough for her to sit next you--can you do that? That would start weaning her off of being ON you while she rocks. She'll still get the motion and the comfort of you being next to her, but it will start changing the routine.

Does she have a lovey or something? If not, I'd start letting her pick one doll/animal/blanket to snuggle with as she falls asleep. What you're looking for is a way for her to start learning to comfort herself without rocking, but if you're not giving her any alternatives it's really hard for her to learn.

Once you have these things in place, I'd start putting her down in her bed just before she falls asleep. If that starts to wake her up and she can't relax again, I'd sing lullabies or put on white noise the next time to help the transition to bed from the rocker. Comforting sounds might help substitute for the comfort of the rocking. After she can make this transition, you can slowly start putting her to bed earlier & earlier in the rocking routine, until it feels right to you or you stop rocking.

[Shami]

Drummer's wife, I have let her stay up, but she just gets more and more wound. I thought she would pass out, but she WILL NOT LAY DOWN. I went all the way to midnight once. She had not had a nap and she was still going strong. She has never fallen asleep sitting in my lap or at the dinner table. You know how some kids fall asleep in their mashed potatoes, nope, she has never just gotten tired and fell asleep. We tried the dvd in bed to see if she would fall asleep. It is too exciting for her and anyway she won't lay down to watch it. The child does not lay down, ever. This is what i meant earlier by it seems like she's almost incapable of laying down. I am watching a friend's kids this weekend. She was so excited to sleep in the living room in her sleeping baq with the other two girls. She would not lay down. She wanted to sit in her sleeping bag. Finally i laid down on the floor and convinced her to lay down in it. She got in, and told me to go to my room. She would sleep with the two girls. I went to my room and i didn't even finish my sentence telling dh the plan, and she was crawling in my bed asking to be rocked. Thanks again for all the tips and understanding. It feels good to just be able to talk it out and see that others have been through similar things.

[Shami]

Spring lily, all great suggestions. Sounds like some ideas from no cry sleep solution book. I have never been able to put her down drowsy either. I forgot to say that i tried the music, eventually she said she didn't like it anymore. I tried telling her she can play, turn lights on, listen to music as long as she stayed in her room. She will not do it. She won't stay in her room. I tried sitting in the hallway while she falls asleep. Nope, she gets up. Yes, i do have a good routine in place. That is the first step, according to all the experts, that you have to have a routine for them to get ready for sleep. It didn't make a difference. She's is not going to just easily lay down and sleep. I am really not trying to be difficult here. I am absolutely at a loss. I knew you ladies would have great ideas. It's just that i have read these forums so much and read so many of the books you have read and i have tried it all, except the hammock and the rocking bed thing! LOL Now i am wondering if i tried these things too late in the game or too early or not long enough. I feel like now all i can do is go back and revisit some of these methods now that she is older. uhg. IF she gets tired she demands to be rocked and cries until it happens. I have waited her out before and it was anywhere from a half and hour to and hour of screaming. I don't have a rocking chair. I sit in my high back chair with arms and i rock her while she does her scrunchy leg thing. It usually takes anywhere from 5 to 15 minutes. Then i transfer her to my bed. If she wakes before i go to bed, she gets up to look for me and i start all over. I have asked her several times if she would like to try letting mama help her sleep in her big girl bed again. She says she wants to do it when she is 4! Part of me is thinking, wait, who's in charge here???

[Shami]

Sping lily, i forgot to say that you are right.  I do want to make two transitions.  I had started with the rocking first which is when she flipped and flopped for two to three hours with me laying next to her.  She was 2 1/2.  Maybe i should try it again.  It has been a year since then.

At first i thought to break the rocking first and let her keep sleeping in my bed and then once that is in place, work on her sleeping in her bed.  OR i could do both at the same time.  Go to bed with her in her room and slip out.  I have done this.  What happened is i got so tired of bed hopping.  I was taking her back to her bed every time, but i have to lay down with her.  That means i will fall asleep and be in her bed for awhile.  Eventually this gets so tiring.  it never ends.  it seems all is impossible--i'm just buried under all the considerations of this way and that way of doing things.

Dh and i put a double   bed and a twin bed together to make a huge bed on the floor.  I believe this is bigger than a king.  Technically we could all fit even with # 2 baby coming, but do we really want that?  She already sleeps sideways and kicks us or burrows under us.  I also feel there is some value in her getting comfy in her own room.  The thing is that i didn't want to push it.  I just thought it would occur naturally, yeah right!

[Shami]

i sound really pessimistic.  i guess in this area, i am.  you all are trying to help and i'm just a downer.  just wanted you all to know that i appreciate the time and effort of you writing back to me.

[LynnS6]

A couple of thoughts:

Another option -- what happens if you lie there with her but don't say anything? Dh and I spent a year or two lying on the floor while our kids fell asleep. I'd bring a book and get some reading done. Dh would bring his laptop. This was key in helping us not feel frustrated. It took them anywhere from 20-40 minutes to fall asleep and some days it was an hour. Yes, it was maddening at times. It still takes them that long to fall asleep, but now they're old enough to read to themselves. Then they get up (one last time) to say goodnight to us, and go to sleep. But they couldn't do that without our presence at age 3. When they were older (5 and 8), we implemented a plan where we gradually reduced the amount of time we spent with them, and then we set the timer to check on them. So, we'd set the timer for 5 minutes, then 10, then 15, then 20. As long as they were still in bed, we'd go in and check on them, give them a quick back rub and leave.

One thing that struck me in your post is that your dd is a sensory seeker. Does she get lots of activities during the day that involve her vestibular system? (swinging, spinning -- a sit 'n spin or dizzy disc (more expensive but works with older kids)). Another thing that really helps kids with a high need for sensory input is a weighted blanket. Something like this. You might want to read up on sensory issues to see if any of it applies to your dd -- Raising a Sensory Smart Child and Growing an In Sync Child have some good activities; The Out of Sync Child has a good overview.

[Drummer's Wife]

Originally Posted by LynnS6 

A couple of thoughts:

Another option -- what happens if you lie there with her but don't say anything? Dh and I spent a year or two lying on the floor while our kids fell asleep. I'd bring a book and get some reading done. Dh would bring his laptop. This was key in helping us not feel frustrated. It took them anywhere from 20-40 minutes to fall asleep and some days it was an hour. Yes, it was maddening at times. It still takes them that long to fall asleep, but now they're old enough to read to themselves. Then they get up (one last time) to say goodnight to us, and go to sleep. But they couldn't do that without our presence at age 3. When they were older (5 and 8), we implemented a plan where we gradually reduced the amount of time we spent with them, and then we set the timer to check on them. So, we'd set the timer for 5 minutes, then 10, then 15, then 20. As long as they were still in bed, we'd go in and check on them, give them a quick back rub and leave.

One thing that struck me in your post is that your dd is a sensory seeker. Does she get lots of activities during the day that involve her vestibular system? (swinging, spinning -- a sit 'n spin or dizzy disc (more expensive but works with older kids)). Another thing that really helps kids with a high need for sensory input is a weighted blanket. Something like this. You might want to read up on sensory issues to see if any of it applies to your dd -- Raising a Sensory Smart Child and Growing an In Sync Child have some good activities; The Out of Sync Child has a good overview.

I bet this will all be helpful to try, OP. 

I was thinking when I posted that maybe an evaluation with an OT would be better than a psychologist. 

[syn_ack89]

Can you see about getting a sleep study done?

http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health/dci/Diseases/slpst/slpst_whatis.html

[Shami]

Yes, lynn and drummer...i didn't put this in my OP because i was already writing a novel. lol I have a friend who is an OT and she has given me some tips. My OT friend is a strong CIO believer and so i can't really talk to her about sleep. I do think she has mild sensory issues. When she was a toddler she didn't like other kids brushing up against her. She still isn't too keen on folks invading her space unless invited. And, she does this clenching thing with her hands and teeth. She squeezes me, my arm, or my hand especially when she gets tired. She does this over and over when she is tired or overstimulated. She'll run around and climb the furniture and then run into me hard and squeeze me. She likes to run into me or bang on me. She'll fall over and purposely bang her head on me. It hurts! She does not stop moving. I always assumed little girls were calm and boys were rowdy. So not true! She is an only child, but I go somewhere everyday for her to get interaction with others. In warm weather we go to a park everyday and most times we meet church friends with little kids. I have a lot of friends with kids her age so we go to each other's houses all the time. She asks to go see her friends too. On rainy days we head to the mall play area. I am a firm believer in lots of activity. I let her jump on my bed because it is low to the ground and old. My furniture is used and old and she can climb, slide all over it. My OT friend gave me exercises to do with her. Things like squeezing massage, wrestling and rough play, brushing her arms and legs. Funny i had forgotten about these things. Lynn, your kids would finally fall asleep and stay asleep all night? Mine won't stay asleep. She was a frequent night nurser and even when i weaned her a little before her third birthday, it didn't help her to stay asleep. She still will wake 3-4 times a night if i am not next to her. Having her sleep with us lets me get rest because i think she wakes, checks if i am there, and goes back to sleep. Anyway, it seems that maybe i should see an OT? I am a little skeptical of seeing a child psychologist because i have this concept that he/she will give me sleep training ideas such as Ferber. I am not interested in that. Thanks again. Lynn it's good to hear that at three they are a litttle young for such independence. I was wondering if i am expecting too much. it's hard to see my good friends put their kids in bed and they stay there...makes me think i did something wrong.