For the first time i wonder if i should seek help from a child psycologist :( - Page 2

[maryeb]

Oh, she sounds so much like my first boy!  He really started to settle himself at about 4.  He also started holding his pee all night then too....it's like a switch turned on and lots of stuff he previously wasn't doing started happening without us interfering.  Before that he needed motion for sleep too.  I love the idea of the hammock! 

My first thought was, is she running around outside like crazy and getting all her energy out?  I remember taking my first on at least 3 neighborhood walks a day, one or two if we went to a park that day.  Even just a couple blocks up and down did the trick and really helped him work all that excess steam out.  I agree with the couple of posters that mentioned sensory seeking-I would also check into that. 

Some things that have helped me with my first are: Knowing that I can only control myself.  Bedtime is consistent and after he has worn himself out running/jumping, etc.  Bedtime snack of something like goat cheese-no fruit or anything super light.  Giving him a really warm washcloth and washing his feet too-very relaxing.  Words I use when he wakes up scared and won't fall back asleep: you are safe, I am nearby, tell your mind to be quiet and slow down (his mind never ever stops going), feel your body become heavy and sink into the bed...repeat...it works many times.  Massaging his feet or back and using a lavendar scented oil or spray on his pillow.  If I had to stay long in his room to help him sleep I would bring a book or something of the like so I didn't go crazy.  Sometimes I bring in my mat and do some yoga.  Anything to help!

Also know that to me it sounds normal!  My second isn't like my first at all, so I would save energy and not think about what this baby will be like sleep wise.  It's not totally in your control.  We used a mattress on the floor for both boys to transition them and we all loved it.  I don't think it made the process any longer for us.  Good luck Mama!!! 

[LynnS6]

Originally Posted by Shami 

Yes, lynn and drummer...i didn't put this in my OP because i was already writing a novel. lol I have a friend who is an OT and she has given me some tips. My OT friend is a strong CIO believer and so i can't really talk to her about sleep. I do think she has mild sensory issues. When she was a toddler she didn't like other kids brushing up against her. She still isn't too keen on folks invading her space unless invited. And, she does this clenching thing with her hands and teeth. She squeezes me, my arm, or my hand especially when she gets tired. She does this over and over when she is tired or overstimulated. She'll run around and climb the furniture and then run into me hard and squeeze me. She likes to run into me or bang on me. She'll fall over and purposely bang her head on me. It hurts! She does not stop moving.

I'd definitely pursue an evaluation by an occupational therapist before I'd seek an evaluation by a psychologist. My son was in OT for several years, and while he doesn't have sleep issues (other than he simply needs less sleep than other children his age), it made a huge difference. It's really working with the body to train the brain pathways to process sensory input better.

 Lynn, your kids would finally fall asleep and stay asleep all night? Mine won't stay asleep. She was a frequent night nurser and even when i weaned her a little before her third birthday, it didn't help her to stay asleep. She still will wake 3-4 times a night if i am not next to her. Having her sleep with us lets me get rest because i think she wakes, checks if i am there, and goes back to sleep. Anyway, it seems that maybe i should see an OT? I am a little skeptical of seeing a child psychologist because i have this concept that he/she will give me sleep training ideas such as Ferber. I am not interested in that. Thanks again. Lynn it's good to hear that at three they are a litttle young for such independence. I was wondering if i am expecting too much. it's hard to see my good friends put their kids in bed and they stay there...makes me think i did something wrong.

Um... I'll confess, no. So, we've created a little space on each side of the bed for the kids. Dd has a permanent nest with a pillow and a blanket right next to my side of the bed. Like your dd, she was a frequent night nurser. We night weaned her at 3, but she'd still wake up and climb over me and into bed. At 4 we had to move her out of our bed because she was too big and was getting too hot. And when she's hot, she kicks the covers off. OK if she's by herself. Not OK if she's sleeping next to us. So, we spent a lousy couple of months trying to get her to sleep all night in her own bed -- taking her back, staying with her and falling asleep on her floor so she'd go back to sleep. After a few weeks I thought "why the heck am I sleeping on the floor? If my kids need to be close to me, they can sleep on the floor." So, we taught them to come in to our room, and simply find their spot on the floor. Ds does this about once every 2 weeks, usually when he has a bad dream.. Dd does this every night. As long as she doesn't wake me up, I don't care. Ds went through a period where he needed to come into our room every night, and it's drastically decreased after age 8. I'm hoping for the same change with dd.

One thing to know is that nearly everyone wakes 3-4 times a night. We just don't notice it, or we train ourselves to simply roll over and go back to sleep. Her behavior isn't unusual. The hard part is that she's waking you. If you can find a way around the waking you up part, and a way for her to go to sleep without major drama, then I wouldn't worry that you can't put her in bed and walk away, or that she doesn't sleep all on her own at night. In much of the world, that's not even an option, let alone an expectation. So, I do think some teaching is in order. You're not teaching her how to sleep, but how to let YOU sleep even though she wakes. That's a matter of manners/living with other people.

I suspect, FWIW, that dd may have mild sleep apnea, and if she continues to wake frequently I'm going to have a sleep study done. Dh has very severe sleep apnea (he was waking something like 150 times an hour when they did his sleep study), and a CPAP machine has made a huge difference to him. If the sensory stuff doesn't work, and if she can't learn to not wake you up, then I'd consider a sleep study.

[Shami]

Lynn it was so good to hear about your experience. Sounds so logical. So, I have to teach her how to not wake me up. I have to figure out how to help her feel safe and comfy without waking me up. And on a side note: her dad has sleep apnea and uses a cpap machine. I have noticed her grinding her teeth while she sleeps. Gives me the shivers just typing it! lol So i guess i should not expect her to not wake up. I have to figure out how to help her wake up and go back to sleep without me. hmm. Sounds like a long road ahead. Well, as long as i feel like i am doing something to help the situation. Thank you so much. starting to feel a twinge of hope again. I am assuming i have to have a referral from my pediatrician for an ot eval? I think we will have her help pick out some new bedding and start laying down in her room with her. Still not sure if i should focus only on no rocking while she is in my bed or do the whole sha-bang. No rocking and falling asleep in her room at the same time. Any opinions on that? Did you say that you were sleeping on the floor? Was that so they would not be used to you sleeping in their bed? A previous poster said they read or were on the laptop in their child's room while they fell asleep. When i tried that she practically attacked me, climbed all over me, choking me, trying to get me to hold her/rock her. Yeah i can be totally quiet, but she will accost me until i respond. I can't let her beat me up. lol ...can't believe i am typing this.

[Shami]

uhg!  my post is all one big paragraph...what's up with that??  sorry, it's harder to read like that in my opinion

[mtnlisa]

 Shami, re: OT evaluation--you can always have this done privately, but the school district should provide evaluations through Childfind--I believe you mentioned you have a friend who is an OT and she would better know how things work in your community.  Typically, a parent can make a referral to the school district  (if your dd is now over 3 y--if not yet 3 then there may be another agency that handles evaluations)  They are designed to evaluate whether a child has special needs that will necessitate support in a school setting. I don't think your child has needs like this, however, I do think that an evaluation (which is free through childfind) would give you information about her sensory system and hopefully the OT can provide ideas for you to help her (if it turns out that she does have some sensory needs that aren't being met during the day).  If you decide to have a childfind evaluation, you do have the right as a parent to request/ensure that there is an OT on the evaluation team.  As a special educator I have worked with a lot of children with all different kinds of sensory needs.  You probably meet a lot of them during the day ( and probably this is why you began rocking her in the first place--parents just know what their children need) but additional ideas might be really helpful.

[LynnS6]

Originally Posted by Shami  Any opinions on that? Did you say that you were sleeping on the floor? Was that so they would not be used to you sleeping in their bed?

It was more a practical matter. They were both in the same room -- ds in a twin bed and dd in a toddler bed. We obviously were too large for the toddler bed, and all 3 of us wouldn't fit in the twin bed, and so it was more practical to lie on the floor between them. Then, when they  moved to separate rooms, ds got a loft bed, and dd got a low loft bed. Again, not very conducive to sleeping together.

I will say that having the separation physically also helped. I was the one with the laptop/book and it was clear that my being 'occupied' helped my kids fall asleep eventually. We actually had some really nice chats sometimes, and I didn't mind. But since I wasn't in bed with them, they didn't get freaked out when I left after they fell asleep.

FWIW, any time dh is out of town, the kids want to share our queen-sized bed with me, and I usually let them. It may be coming to an end though, as ds is closing in on 5' and dd is still kicking the covers off everyone when she's hot. So, I'm not opposed to co-sleeping, but I do know that I, as a parent, need a full night's sleep to function. When my kids' sleeping is interfering with mine, something's got to change for the health of the family.

A previous poster said they read or were on the laptop in their child's room while they fell asleep. When i tried that she practically attacked me, climbed all over me, choking me, trying to get me to hold her/rock her. Yeah i can be totally quiet, but she will accost me until i respond. I can't let her beat me up. lol ...can't believe i am typing this.

This is where I used Anthony Wolf's 'waiting for the bus' technique. When they got out of bed (and yes, it did also help that I was not in bed with them), I'd silently walk them back. Pretend you're waiting for the bus and really don't have anything invested in how long it takes for her to get to sleep. If it doesn't get them anywhere, the behavior will eventually disappear. Unfortunately, there's usually an increase in the behavior before it disappears as she goes through the stages of "wait, this worked before! I've got to try harder to make it work". Once she realizes it really won't work, it will disappear.

Since your dd is used to you rocking her and being right next to her, it's quite a change for her to have you not in bed with her. I'd be tempted to spend 3-4 weeks weaning yourself off the bed. So, the first few nights, rub her back while she falls asleep. The next few, lie quietly with her. The next few, sit in a chair next to the bed and hold her hand, the next few touch her occasionally. She may need a hand hold or a shirt of yours to sleep with or something for quite some time.  You might think about some soft music or white noise too. If she's sensory seeking, that might help her.

I also think she's old enough that you need to tell her the plan. I would figure out your plan and present it as how it's going to be and why. "Mommy's arms hurt too much to rock you, but I'll be happy to sit next to you while you fall asleep. I can't be in bed with you because you flop too much and that hurts me, and I think it keeps you from getting to sleep."

And I'll confess there are days when then "waiting for the bus" did not work and I lost it. (Bedtime parenting is really hard because everyone is tired!). Usually then I'd leave the room until they were back in bed, or at least until I was calm enough to handle it again. The 'rule' was that I'd stay if you stayed in bed.

[Shami]

Mtnlisa, thank you for the tips. I never realized that me rocking her was meeting a need related to the sensory issues. Even though i was a teacher for a while, i don't remember studying this at all. Maybe my education was before sensory issues actually had a name. Anyway this is so interesting and thanks again. I talked to the my OT friend on Sunday and she is going to give me a book which has a form with questions that will help me pin point. She said my dd def. has tactile needs and something else...i've already forgotten the term! I had no idea that this could have anything to do with sleep.

[Shami]

Lynn, i really appreciate you taking the time to give such a detailed response. I feel like i am ready now to start afresh with a gentle way to help her sleep in her bed. I think i can implement all the tips you gave. I know my hubby will be happy if we have another attempt. He is really supportive and he knows that it will be me doing it, so he doesn't pressure me at all. I think this will help my dd to grow emotionally. I think i may add one step in beginning. It might help to first let her stay in our bed while i get her over the rocking. Once she is able to fall asleep in a decent amount of time by just laying with me, then I will move us to her bed and lay with her there for a few nights. Then proceed with the slow progression you laid out for me. Thanks again.

[chiefmir]

this may be a totally naive suggestion, but would your DD be able/willing to rock herSELF in a nice glider? I know my 5 yo DD loves to sit in the one in her little sisters' room while I'm putting them to bed, and rock.  if she's small, she may even be able to curl up in a large one and fall asleep--and you could transfer her later in the night?

[ssh]

When my DD was 3 she was still co-sleeping and nursing some at night. If we weren't in bed with her she waked every hour or so, but if we were in bed with her she slept. Right before age 4 she weaned herself and then decided she wanted to sleep in her own bed with her nightlights. When she first weaned herself she'd roll around and kinda wiggle herself asleep for a few weeks. After deciding to go to her own room she'd go to sleep with stories and stay asleep 10 hours. I think part of the appeal was the two new night lights that change color and the water bed mattress (the kind with waterfilled coils) my ILs gave her. The point is that having a 3 year old who can't seem to sleep well alone or has to nurse or wiggle to sleep doesn't mean she won't go to sleep on her own and stay asleep when she's a little older. The summer my DD was 3.5, I would have guessed she'd still be co-sleeping and nursing at 5, she was still so needy. So they can surprise you by becoming more independent. It does sound like she needs to co-sleep for now. Have you tried moving a twin bed next to yours? That way it would feel like she's sleeping by mommy, but you'd have all the space of your own bed.

I always found sites like this http://nd.edu/~jmckenn1/lab/longterm.html encouraging when I felt like co-sleeping wasn't working or felt sleep deprived. Hope you find something that works soon.

[Shami]

Chief, sounds like a great idea. I don't have a glider. HAd to get rid of it because it was not comfy and falling apart. I think that part of the rocking that is so appealing to her is that i am holding her "up". She likes to be "up" on the shoulder, the SAME shoulder...no switching shoulders. She doesn't like to be rocked while sitting on my lap. I have tried and tried to get her to be okay with me holding her like a baby on my lap, with pillows, without pillows, but she cries until we hold her up on our shoulder. There was one week that my shoulder was just in so much pain that i told her i could not do it and she cried every night that week. Sometimes she cries until she throws up. After my shoulder healed i started holding her up again. It's the combo of mama/daddy being up on shoulder and rocking. She does this scrunchy thing with her legs and i don't think she can do it without being up. I've been trying to teach her how to rock herself laying down or move her legs and feet to help her sleep. So far, she's not getting it.

[Shami]

Shh, well that is pretty encouraging.  I have tried to convince myself to just hang in there and she'll out grow rocking and/or cosleeping.  My problem with waiting isn't so much ME.  I like cosleeping and i feel safer knowing she is in my room.  Actually, I think i sleep better when she is in my room.

MY issue:

What if I keep waiting for her to do it and she doesn't... and she  is in the 6th grade and unable to ever stay at grandma's or church camp or sleep overs due to INSECURITY.  I know children like this and they are not happy that they cannot do a sleepover.  They feel very sad and one girl cried for hours because she couldn't stay at church camp.  Even when one of the mothers offered to stay with her until she fell asleep, she could not do it.  

I don't want dd to feel so insecure when i am not around.  And what about emergencies or when she is a little older and mom and dad go on a weekend holiday...i want her to be well adjusted and secure in sleeping any where without me.

Right now we have a double and a twin pushed up next to each other.  It's just like having a king, so space isn't the issue.  Hubby sleeps on the twin and dd is in the middle.   When baby #2 comes i will cosleep again because i believe in the biological/emotional benefits of cosleeping.  But, i also believe that part of my job as a parent is to help her become more and more independent in every aspect of life.

Deciding when she is 'ready' for this kind of independence has been hard and figuring out the most gentle ways to facilitate this independence has been trial and error.  I have backed off of attempts many times feeling that she wasn't ready.  I don't feel 'waiting' for her to do it herself is the best option.  What if she never does it?  It's encouraging to hear that your daughter did it, but what if mine doesn't?  That is a possibility.

[ssh]

Did you look at the link, http://nd.edu/~jmckenn1/lab/longterm.html ? Research has shown that people who co-slept are more secure and less anxious. My DD has a normal amount of anxiety and fears for her age, but none about sleeping, being in the dark or being alone in her room. The problem with you trying to decide when your DDs ready is that there's no way for you to really know.  Your DD on the other hand can tell when she's ready to try things. There aren't any kids who started out co-sleeping and keep doing it forever. Just like the fear that a child will nurse forever if you let them decide when to wean, it just doesn't happen.  If a child feels secure, which co-sleeping helps happen, they develop a desire for privacy and independence as a part of natural development. It happens a different ages and can happen suddenly, like with my DD, but it does happen. That's kinda the whole idea behind AP parenting. All the closeness and physical contact help the child feel secure so they can become independent when they are ready. In cultures where co-sleeping is the norm it's common to be still co-sleeping at age 5. The children who have anxiety about sleep or sleeping at grandmas probably didn't co-sleep or may have stopped too young. I have always had issues with insomnia so I didn't want my DD to have any anxiety associated with sleep. We were prepared for her to co-sleep until she was 6 or so. She had a surge of independence right around turning 4.  It could have happened at 6 instead.

[1blueheron]

just a quick thought - possibly restless leg issues??  http://www.denibell.com/2010/09/06/restless-leg-a-very-real-syndrome/