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I agree with everything everyone else said :)
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One thing to add... I came across this blog the other day (maybe it was one of the MDC mamas? I don't remember). Anyway it was written by an American living in Japan where co-sleeping is the norm. She wrote about how the Japanese women will approach her and ask, "Is it really true that in America you put babies to sleep alone in their own beds when they are only a year old?" It helps me, for some reason, to realize that if we lived in Japan the ones with crib sleepers (no disrespect to them - heck I'd love it if mine would go back to sleeping in his crib!) would be the "weirdos" who felt like outsiders.
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Oh, and also... my DS is the same age and wakes up all the time. Misery loves company! Hang in there mama!
Sorry you're struggling; my son was a terrible sleeper around 8/9 mos. due to teething. We now co-sleep full-time. You will love the king-sized bed! Every fear I had thus far about co-sleeping has been groundless and my son is now 20 mos. old and sleeping very well with very few night wakings. I learned the hard way not to share this info with family or friends that are not supportive.
Hi again Megan and other June/July mamas with terrible sleepers (I like to think of it another way- DS is a great waker!) ! 
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DH and I have been questioning our choices too lately. It's so hard because we really believe that all the "AP" stuff we do (cosleeping, breastfeeding on cue, babywearing, responding right away to DS,etc.) are really the best thing for him. Sometimes it just doesn't seem to make sense that he doesn't sleep as well as other babies whose parents do almost the opposite of what we do! We were really saying the other night "maybe we're wrong, maybe this isn't the best way"... because at 3 am when baby has been nursing for 3 hrs straight and cries every time we try to put him down it's hard to believe this COULD be the best way.
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Right now we have chosen to turn a bit towards a middle ground- we are trying to do what's best for baby while keeping ourselves relatively sane. In the past 2 nights this has meant our DS crying more than we'd like (in arms) while trying to soothe him in other ways than nursing. And actually, it seems to be working for us I'm happy to report. DS has had (alot) fewer night wakings and during the past 2 nights has had 2 FOUR-hour sleep stretches (this is absolutely incredible for us!), my back is doing way better from not nursing for 9 hours straight for the past 2 nights and DS is still happy as clam and doesn't seem to hate me for it all.
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He is also crawling and moving towards pulling himself up. He's only got 2 bottom teeth and no signs of more coming through yet. As for the eating more food during the day- my DS seems to sleep worse when he eats a lot of solids during the day- maybe all that digesting bothers him. So for his food, he eats his "heavier" foods in the morning and lighter stuff in the afternoon.
I missed the part about your daughter being 8 months old! There is a sleep regression around 9 months. It's totally normal. This time is a huge development phase for them. (Looking at my Wonder Weeks chart, there are 3 big clusters of wonder weeks between 8-12 months.)
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People who have done CIO probably "re-train" around this time. Also, keep in mind that people lie all the time about their babies sleeping through the night. People define it in different ways too, and you never know what they're talking about. I read some "mainstream" parenting forums, and everyone was saying how their babies slept through the night at 3 months, and I was like, WHAT? But it turns out they were defining it as a 5-hour stretch. My baby often sleeps 5 hours. Big whoop. It doesn't do me much good when he goes to bed at 7pm and then wakes up 3-4 times after midnight, and I go to bed at 10pm. (I've also heard of people not counting "replacing the paci" runs.)
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The only group of people that seem to me to be totally honest about nightwakings are attachment parents -- maybe because they don't view it as a good baby/bad baby kind of thing.
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EDIT: I've also read statements like, "My baby has slept through the night since 3 weeks old, with 2-3 night feedings."
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Huh?? So I guess these are the various definitions of STTN:
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1. A full night's sleep without feedings or intervention from parents.
2. A full night's sleep without feedings (don't count interventions like replacing paci/patting)
3. 5 hour stretch, regardless of how many times they wake outside that 5 hours
4. In bed for a full night, only waking for feedings (i.e., not waking to play for 2 hours)
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Yes, we co-sleep, but only part time. We have baby in her crib until we go to bed, and then I bring her into bed when she wakes up after that. The only downside to co-sleeping right now is that our full sized bed doesn't fit all of us and so my husband has to sleep elsewhere. We are in the process of getting a king bed, but boy is it $$.
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If you don't mind buying the bed over a period of time, you could go to Ikea and buy the mattress & slats. Put on floor and use. The advantage is that the baby can't fall far, and you can buy the frame at a later point when finances permit.
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We bought our latex mattress over a year ago and still haven't bothered with a frame ;-)
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Hi again Megan and other June/July mamas with terrible sleepers (I like to think of it another way- DS is a great waker!) !Â
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DH and I have been questioning our choices too lately. It's so hard because we really believe that all the "AP" stuff we do (cosleeping, breastfeeding on cue, babywearing, responding right away to DS,etc.) are really the best thing for him. Sometimes it just doesn't seem to make sense that he doesn't sleep as well as other babies whose parents do almost the opposite of what we do! We were really saying the other night "maybe we're wrong, maybe this isn't the best way"... because at 3 am when baby has been nursing for 3 hrs straight and cries every time we try to put him down it's hard to believe this COULD be the best way.
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Right now we have chosen to turn a bit towards a middle ground- we are trying to do what's best for baby while keeping ourselves relatively sane. In the past 2 nights this has meant our DS crying more than we'd like (in arms) while trying to soothe him in other ways than nursing. And actually, it seems to be working for us I'm happy to report. DS has had (alot) fewer night wakings and during the past 2 nights has had 2 FOUR-hour sleep stretches (this is absolutely incredible for us!), my back is doing way better from not nursing for 9 hours straight for the past 2 nights and DS is still happy as clam and doesn't seem to hate me for it all.
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He is also crawling and moving towards pulling himself up. He's only got 2 bottom teeth and no signs of more coming through yet. As for the eating more food during the day- my DS seems to sleep worse when he eats a lot of solids during the day- maybe all that digesting bothers him. So for his food, he eats his "heavier" foods in the morning and lighter stuff in the afternoon.
Not to hijack the thread but tell me more about your method, please. You may remember me as the formerly zen mother of the frequently waking baby... it is interesting how I can cope with "wakes up every 2 hours or so all night long" but when it moves to "wakes up every hour or so all night long" I start to lose my mind. I've been sick for a freakin' month and I know a lot of it has to do with sleep deprivation. I'm ready to try something different.
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ETA: Were you cosleeping? Are you still?
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Expat mama: I read the No Cry Sleep Solution, too! Whenever I am already to do something drastic, per the recommendations in the book, it always gets better and I ditch the plan. Is it working for you? I am doing a couple of things from the book, the lighter things, like establishing a good bedtime routine and daytime routine, and trying to get her to nap as much as possible, no matter what the method is. I've also tried to shorten the amount of time that I nurse/rock her, but then I get all sad and want my baby cuddles. It's hard because you want sleep, but those baby cuddles are so good sometimes. But other times you are so tired of the cuddling and rocking and nursing all night long and just want sleep. I'm interested to see how it going for you, I will probably be trying some more ideas if sleep doesn't get better over the next couple of months. I think she has a nap book, too. And I know what you mean about balance. I need to be a mindful nighttime parent, but if the things I am doing at night are completely exhausting and dehilbilitating to me, it makes me a lousy daytime parent. Sounds like you have a good head about that balance and are finding a way that you can be both a good nighttime and day time parent. Funny you should mention the solids, I thought that the lack of solids was keeping my baby up, but really I think it's me giving the solids that are keeping her up. She has gas throughout the night, which makes it hard for her to settle, even after I rock and nurse her. What kind of foods do you find that are light on the tummy?
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Ginger bean: such good points. seriously. That really makes sense and I relayed it all to my husband. I think you really hit the nail on the head when you said that AP mamas are much more honest about the night sleep because we don't view it as a good baby/ bad baby trait. I can't tell you how many times I've been asked this exact question "Is she a good baby? Does she sleep at night?" You gave me good food for thought, thank you. i remember the five hour thing, and yes, five hours is nothing. My baby used to sleep for five hour stretches and in the morning it did not feel like STTN!
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roamingwidgeteer: IKEA! BRILLIANT!! Why did this not cross my mind?! Is it comfy? I think that is the one thing that I think about when I look at the beds. We have our mattress on the floor right now and hubby actually likes it better that way, he is a minimalist like that.
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mosaic: You working mommies are my heros, seriously. You are one tough cookie! I complain about sleep, but if I need to, I can take it easy and take a nap. I am in awe of you. Thank you for the reminder. I need to remember that. I think the stress comes from all those negative voices that I am working on shutting out of my head and replacing with these awesome MDC voices. I seriously need to print this stuff out and stick it in the pocket of my nursing chair. I'm not even kidding, either. I need to remember that the days are so long, but the years are so short.
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roamingwidgeteer: IKEA! BRILLIANT!! Why did this not cross my mind?! Is it comfy? I think that is the one thing that I think about when I look at the beds. We have our mattress on the floor right now and hubby actually likes it better that way, he is a minimalist like that.
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We like the mattress a lot. I think it was SULTAN ELSFJORD with a SULTAN LAXEBY base. The only disadvantages are no storage under bed and its hard to clean underneath.
Popping back in to say we have had a king bed on the floor (with a box spring but no frame) for years, and I have to say that (though it's all I've ever done, so it's what I'm used to) co-sleeping seems like it'd be crazy difficult in a small bed. Our 1 y.o. is a jumping bean/kung-fu master all night long, and the extra space is good sometimes. He often sleep-chases me all over the bed, so, sometimes when he settles down, I sleep at the bottom of the bed. The sleep issue is the never-ending story of early parenthood.
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Not to hijack the thread but tell me more about your method, please. You may remember me as the formerly zen mother of the frequently waking baby... it is interesting how I can cope with "wakes up every 2 hours or so all night long" but when it moves to "wakes up every hour or so all night long" I start to lose my mind. I've been sick for a freakin' month and I know a lot of it has to do with sleep deprivation. I'm ready to try something different.
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ETA: Were you cosleeping? Are you still?
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The bolded statement is EXACTLY me!! I really didn't mind so much going in and nursing every 2 hours because he would go back to sleep and I had at least an hour and a half of sleep ahead of me. The every hour thing does me in!! I wish that I had co-slept from the beginning in a lot of ways. I am trying to do so now (son is 10.5 months) but I think he might be a tad confused:\
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Expat mama: I read the No Cry Sleep Solution, too! Whenever I am already to do something drastic, per the recommendations in the book, it always gets better and I ditch the plan. Is it working for you? I am doing a couple of things from the book, the lighter things, like establishing a good bedtime routine and daytime routine, and trying to get her to nap as much as possible, no matter what the method is. I've also tried to shorten the amount of time that I nurse/rock her, but then I get all sad and want my baby cuddles. It's hard because you want sleep, but those baby cuddles are so good sometimes. But other times you are so tired of the cuddling and rocking and nursing all night long and just want sleep. I'm interested to see how it going for you, I will probably be trying some more ideas if sleep doesn't get better over the next couple of months. I think she has a nap book, too. And I know what you mean about balance. I need to be a mindful nighttime parent, but if the things I am doing at night are completely exhausting and dehilbilitating to me, it makes me a lousy daytime parent. Sounds like you have a good head about that balance and are finding a way that you can be both a good nighttime and day time parent. Funny you should mention the solids, I thought that the lack of solids was keeping my baby up, but really I think it's me giving the solids that are keeping her up. She has gas throughout the night, which makes it hard for her to settle, even after I rock and nurse her. What kind of foods do you find that are light on the tummy?
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Actually I didn't find the NCSS too helpful for us! None of the "solutions" or methods really worked with my DS no matter how hard we tried. We stuck to it for about 3 weeks before we decided to throw the book to the wayside. Then we gave up trying anything at all, and things deteriorated to me nursing all night long etc. I definitely think routines help- we've had a bedtime routine since DS was born- our daytime routine is pretty flexible but naps are a big part of it and I make sure at the very least that DS is not overtired.
DS has 2-3 meals a day and sometimes picks at some snacks I give him. He also drinks a lot of water (in addition to nursing about 7 times during the day. For meals- for breakfast or lunch he usually has yogurt and pureed stuff that I make for him as well as some bits of rice cakes and bits of whatever I eat for him to try. His dinner is usually much lighter- finger foods that he doesn't eat too much of because he's not good at that yet, or if he seems hungry simple fruit purees that I know he digests well like pears, apricots, and sweet potatoes. No heavy proteins, meats or carbs. I do think the lighter foods later in the day make a BIG difference for my DS. Although he is not a picky eater and has no allergies, he has always been a gassy baby and gets constipated really easily. He needs to drink a lot of water too.
To help with gas, we do a tummy massage as part of his bed/bath routine- bicycle his legs and rub his tummy in a clockwise motion. He sometimes lets out a few good whoppers this way before bedtime. 
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Quote:
Not to hijack the thread but tell me more about your method, please. You may remember me as the formerly zen mother of the frequently waking baby... it is interesting how I can cope with "wakes up every 2 hours or so all night long" but when it moves to "wakes up every hour or so all night long" I start to lose my mind. I've been sick for a freakin' month and I know a lot of it has to do with sleep deprivation. I'm ready to try something different.
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ETA: Were you cosleeping? Are you still?
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Hi! Yes, we are still cosleeping. DS sleeps in his crib for the first part of the night then after his first wakeup after we are in bed we take him in with us. I don't nurse him in bed anymore though- I get up to do it in the glider as I find this shortens it substantially!
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So what we've been doing is simply not nursing DS every time he gets up. I set times throughout the nights that I will nurse him in case he is hungry or thirsty if he wakes up (about every 3 hours) and I do believe this is necessary for him, he's only about 9 months old. Other than those times, we comfort him by rocking, bouncing on yoga ball, walking back and forth with him (like maniacs) in the dark and patting his back. The first couple of times he was like "what the he**!?!? Where are my nummies you idiots?!?" and we couldn't even do anything except hold him and shush and pat him because he was so angry and insistent- bucking out of our arms and screaming like a banshee. That was literally only the first 2 or 3 times. Now when we comfort him in arms he is much calmer, even though he still cries. He settles faster (within 5-10 minutes) and I hope he will soon stop crying as he is learning that he can be comforted in these other ways.
I don't want to jinx myself but I really think this is working! DS has only woken an average of 3 times the last few nights! It's truly amazing. Either what we are doing is working, or DS is just naturally getting over his rough phase. Who can tell? I dunno, but we are sticking with it. I can't believe how much more rested I feel just getting ONE four-hour stretch (and other shorter stretches) at night. It's amazing.
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GingerBean, some babies DO sleep really through the night at less than 6 months. There was a time when DD would consistently sleep from 9.30 pm-5.30 am (8 hours), wake for a feed, then sleep till 7 am. Now, if 8 h isn't sleeping through the night, I don't know what is. I never tried to sleep train her. It just happened. The key to her sleeping truly through the night seems to be my going to bed with her and staying there, which is likely to give 7-8 h (if she is fully fed before bed). I know that this doesn't always help even for DD.
I've read through quickly and don't know if I missed it, but yes this is a hard stage. Right now I'm there with #2 at hourly wakings. No cry sleep solution pantley pop-off, has helped some. But otherwise what helps me is that I spend an obscene amount of time in bed, we go to bed very soon after her and spend 9-11 hours in bed per night. Only way for me to be functionalÂ
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GingerBean, some babies DO sleep really through the night at less than 6 months. There was a time when DD would consistently sleep from 9.30 pm-5.30 am (8 hours), wake for a feed, then sleep till 7 am. Now, if 8 h isn't sleeping through the night, I don't know what is. I never tried to sleep train her. It just happened. The key to her sleeping truly through the night seems to be my going to bed with her and staying there, which is likely to give 7-8 h (if she is fully fed before bed). I know that this doesn't always help even for DD.
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Oh, I believe you! My son used to sleep from 6pm to 2-3am, but that didn't last. :(
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ex-pat mama
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I think what you are doing is still AP etc. Â You are holding/soothing/calming baby, not letting him be alone and not ignoring his needs. Â Glad it seems to be working for you - wish I had thought of this with my first! Â I will keep it in mind if DS ever becomes an every hour nurser!
ex-pat mama
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I think what you are doing is still AP etc. Â You are holding/soothing/calming baby, not letting him be alone and not ignoring his needs. Â Glad it seems to be working for you - wish I had thought of this with my first! Â I will keep it in mind if DS ever becomes an every hour nurser!
I think that is what I love most about AP, it means different things at different times and is very flexible and adaptable to every season of life. I completely agree with jcregan. There are not hard and fast rules within AP for this very reason. You are doing a great job making sure he gets some sleep and still meeting his needs. It must be tough on the little ones, too, when they need to wake up so much. It is a great idea to teach baby how to be comforted in other ways. I think I am going to do a modified version of what you are doing, expat mama. I will let you know how it goes!
