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Why can't I be just a mother??!! "AP vs.Mainstreem Parents" - Page 3

post #41 of 301
Newmommy -

I am sorry you are feeling left out, I think that sometimes happens on MDC, and other AP boards, when you aren't sure of your role, or you aren't "as" AP as some.

In general, this is how I see it.... I know this is a place for AP parenting...and I know what that entails. If you didn't know, then, from this thread, you do. I also know that some of what I do would not be considered AP. The truth is, I can find the forums I feel like I have something to contribute to, and post there. I read others and sometimes feel like I have nothing in common with those mom's or feel like what they are saying is WAY not what I believe. That is ok, we are all different and I just don't post...no biggie.

I think you will find that many people "hang out" in certain areas because that is where they are comfortable. Sometimes they venture out for a stroll, but more or less they have found a forum home. I hope you do too! (Personally, I dont' know what I would do without the trading post and the swaps...:LOL, but I don't know how AP that is: )

I know that formula feeding moms can feel uncomfortable here...I too had to formula feed (read: supplement) both of my kids due to breast surgery when I was very young. I didn't have the supply that others had and was never going to...but I did my best and they both got SOME breastmilk. That was all I had to offer, but I still felt bad when I was in certain situations)

I think if you stick around you will see that it is worth it...there is always something to learn.

Christina
post #42 of 301
Quote:
Originally posted by Dragonfly
T But I'm not sure I understand this. Casein is a dairy (milk) product, isn't it?
T Casein is indeed a dairy product, but it appears in *all* kinds of milk, not just cow's milk. Casein is milk protien, and while most of the time it refers to cow's milk protien, technically human milk protien is also casein. Just like both cow's milk and human milk contain lactose (which just means 'milk sugar') but most of the time when people talk about lactose, they're talking about the kind in cow's milk. Just a friendly geek-note.
post #43 of 301
Quote:
Casein is milk protien, and while most of the time it refers to cow's milk protien, technically human milk protien is also casein.
I was just going to say the same thing. It's definately not common but it is possible to be allergic to breastmilk. My girls all had the same allergy problem and were allergic to breastmilk, milk based formulas, hypoallergenic formulas (they have casein in them) and were also allergic to soy as well, so they were on an amino acid based formula, Neocate. Thankfully our ins covered that since it's $35 a can.

But to respond to the OP, while we all don't follow all of the exact same ideas of AP parenting, but I think there are some AP basics that most AP parents would agree on. While I don't breastfeed for the above reasons, I definately do support mothers who do as well as other typically AP things that we choose not to do. JMO but if you are finding that your parenting ideas are different from the typical AP points, than perhaps you might feel more at home at a different parenting message board since the Mothering boards are really geared towards AP parenting.
post #44 of 301
Quote:
Originally posted by pageta
Those of us that do AP (breastfeeding, co-sleeping, babywearing, cloth diapering, etc.) ...This is a support board for AP parents, and if that's not how you chose to parent, there are many other boards out there to choose from.
The thing is, you can only breastfeed, babywear and cloth diaper for so long. Then you've got over a decade of active parenting left. I think it's really important to let people know that you can adopt an AP lifestyle at any time during a child's life.

I formula fed my son, didn't co-sleep, didn't baby wear and used cloth diapers because he was allergic to disposables. But, as strange as this may sound, I've been an AP parent from the very start. I've always strived to treat my son with dignity and respect. I've never hit him, I rarely yell at him and we are very closely bonded.

If I'd not been "let in" by some AP Mamas, inspite of my "lousy" credentials in the baby years, then I might not have become the mother I am. As my son comes up on the teenage years, I think AP actually becomes more important. And so, in my opinion, "excluding" (intentionally or unintentionally) people because of what they did or didn't do in the first five years of parenting seems a bit hasty when there is such a need to spread the message of AP with older children.
post #45 of 301
Yea, what Pugmadmama said.
post #46 of 301
Thread Starter 
I apologize to this board. My emotions got the best of me and I posted without thinking. I am sorry. However...I would like to *clarify*myself on the term Attachment Parenting. If I had to *classify* myself in terms of mothering...I am simply a mother who loves her son very, very much. I am a first time mother (who admittedly) had very rough start with the rewarding journey of motherhood. But with the help of my DH and other boards (boards you may even consider mainstream) and believe it or not...this board, I am a much better mommy today.

That being said, I may not breastfeed (not by choice, believe me), I did sling, I do co-sleep, I do not believe in CIO (under any terms) and DH and I will never spank/hit our son. I do respond to my son very quickly to the point where I am tripping over myself to get to him : We both believe in showering our DS with love and affection. Example, DS likes to sleep on our chest, we let him (skin to skin method). I dunno if this form of affection would be considered attachment parenting but I would hope so.

If attachment parenting is considered (according to this community) the most effective way to bring our children up into the most loving, safe and secure environment then how does it differ from most *mainstream* practices?

Truth be told, I have learned alot from other *mainstream boards* and to be honest, I really do not see a difference a big difference that is significantly noticeable. (Most)*Mainstream* mothers do practice extended breastfeeding, they do not believe in CIO, they sling, and some do not vaccinate. But at the same time I now realize they would not be welcomed on this board Mothers...these are just my personal observations and again they certainly do not apply to ALL *mainstream moms*.

Also, considering the term: Attachment Parenting. To me IMO, a lot of emphasis is placed more on the mother than the father (if any). Is there such a term as Attachment Mothering? In our small family, my DH would be truly hurt if he was not *encouraged* to bond as equally with DS. He likes to call it our circle of love.

I frequent this board alot (from pregnancy to birth) you name it, I've been there and gotten help. But, I truly did not start noticing the *discouragement* from other mothers that did not meet ALL of the attachment parenting methods to come here, get information and use it to the best of your mothering abilities. I honestly thought this was a board that geared to helping mothers no matter who they are, or what they believe in. I did not know that this was a *santuary* against those *other mothers* as someone phrased in their post. Whew! being a first time mother, I am beginning to realize there are all sorts of *little wars* between mothers. From SAHM Vs. WM to Attachment Parenting VS. Mainstream Parenting... It truly never ends.

So again, I am very sorry for my thread (it was not fair for me to post it in this community) and you guys are right, I don't belong here or any other the sub boards within this community as they are all apart of the Attachment community. Please forgive me and I am sorry for the intrusion.
post #47 of 301
Quote:
But at the same time I now realize they would not be welcomed on this board Mothers...these are just my personal observations and again they certainly do not apply to ALL *mainstream moms*.
Sorry these are your feelings and what you are taking away from this board. I dont think its true. I think when you start a thread blasting AP, you are bound to feel not welcome. (Even though alot of moms here wrote supportive things to you dispite that)

If you come here to inquire, to find a better way, to ask for help or just to read..........there are mamas here who are always there for you.......theyve been there for me and they have no idea if I cosleep, ex. bf'd, etc etc.

What Im trying to say is..........if you dont come out with your guns drawn, there are alot of sympathic ears here. And I can see from previous threads you have started, looking for help, you have found that to be true.

Good luck to you!
post #48 of 301
Newmommy,
First, I want to applaud you for resonding to the posts in this thread... I'm not so sure I would have had the gumption!
Second, I want to say that I understand where you are coming from. I got totally hooked on MDC after the birth of my son... it was (and is) a valuable source of information for me. Over the course of my son's first 4 months, I descended in to a very deep post-partum depression. Luckily, I have an amazing practice near me here in PA (The PostPartum Stress Center) where I got help for myself. Part of my depression was my unrealistic expectation of myself for how to be a mother. Reading these boards only fueled my depression... I read all of these thing I wasn't doing and feeling like I was failing my son. I actually had a session with my therapist where I discussed MDC because I had had someone disagree with something I posted and the way she did it made me feel totally attacked for my decisions as a parent... reading the exchange of posts now, I can see that the person was clarifing information and that I just was so raw and thin skinned that it sent me over the edge. I actually stopped reading the boards for a couple of months as it was doing me more harm than good. That was all part of my huge transition in to Motherhood. I'm back on the boards because I am in a totally different place now mentally, and I get a lot of value from others thoughts, views and opinions here. I think a big part of it for me was that I hadn't found my own voice yet as a mother before... and I felt like I had failed before I had even started... now I know (through the miracle of time and a good therapist) who I am now and I can respect other people's opinions and actions as their own... and not something that I need to react to in some way if it doesn't exactly reflect how I parent or what I believe.
I must say, I am thankful that MDC exists... I have met such wonderful women in my area through this board who have positivly impacted my life in ways I never could have imagined. I only can hope that you have a similar experience.
Take care of yourself, newmommy!
post #49 of 301
*
post #50 of 301

me

i don't do a lot of the things that totally "AP" parents do.

i have found, however, i am much more AP than "mainstream" in the way we treat our children.

for example.....we dont spank.....try not to yell.....try to put the baby/children first. try and be "baby centered"...

im all about gentle parenting, and feel that people here are too.....and i think you can get great advice here.

better than most places.


ps. once your child is over a year....a lot of the "AP" things that you don't do won't even be realavant...and i think you'll like it more as time goes.

Edited (PSS)
we didn't breastfeed, but my son is now two years...so pretty much a non-issue now for us.

we only co-sleep in the mornings (not at night).

i tried slinging, but didn't like it,

i pretty much held him 24/7 newborn....but once they walk (FORGET IT ANYWAY)

so, time changes stuff is my point
post #51 of 301
I'm glad you came back.

Quote:
Originally posted by newmommy
That being said, I may not breastfeed (not by choice, believe me), I did sling, I do co-sleep, I do not believe in CIO (under any terms) and DH and I will never spank/hit our son.
Well then what is it that you feel separates you from other mamas here? Sounds like you fit in just fine. What did someone say to you to make you feel like you didn't fit in here?

Quote:
If attachment parenting is considered (according to this community) the most effective way to bring our children up into the most loving, safe and secure environment then how does it differ from most *mainstream* practices?
I basically define "mainstream" parenting as that which is the societal norm. As in, if you met ten people on the street and told them you sleep with your child, how many would not be the least bit surprised (I'm guessing maybe one if you are lucky)? Basically, mainstream parenting means that you put your child in a crib because it never occurs to you that a baby might want to sleep next to its mama. And if you are really mainstream you buy the myth that sleeping with your baby is dangerous b/c you might roll over or smother them. And when baby bawls and wakes all night you don't consider it's because babies aren't designed to sleep in isolation, you just consider baby to have "sleep problems' and go buy the latest sleep-training manual. Mainstream says formula versus breastfeeding is simply a lifestyle choice and that formula is "just as good" as breastmilk. Mainstream parenting says you can hold a child "too much' and that babies need to be taught to soothe themselves. Mainstream parenting is obsessed with making babies "independent". Therefore, you don't childproof your home, you just smack their hands if they touch things they aren't supposed to, and you teach them that life isn't fair by letting them cry it out. Mainstream parenting treats spanking as a legitimate option for discipline, and that if there is no power control by the adult then your child must be spoiled. Mainstream parenting advises giving solids in the bottle to help baby sleep better, and introducing jarred baby food right at four months of age. I could go on, but basically what I'm saying is that these attitudes are the *dominant* ones in our soceity and while individual practices may vary (making it very hard to decide if an individual mom falls into either category), they constitute what is "mainstream". Note it is a societal attitude, and has no basis in science.

Quote:
(Most)*Mainstream* mothers do practice extended breastfeeding, they do not believe in CIO, they sling, and some do not vaccinate.
Well, you must live in some nice town because that sure as heck isn't my experience.

Quote:
But at the same time I now realize they would not be welcomed on this board
Why not? I'm serious - could you clarify why a mother who does EBF, doesn't CIO, babywears, etc would not be welcomed here? I just don't understand why you would say that.

Quote:
Also, considering the term: Attachment Parenting. To me IMO, a lot of emphasis is placed more on the mother than the father (if any). Is there such a term as Attachment Mothering? In our small family, my DH would be truly hurt if he was not *encouraged* to bond as equally with DS.
I hear this alot. Personally, I don't find it that way at all. How does AP not encourage your DH to bond? Does it not promote babywearing, rocking/holding to sleep, cosleeping, etc? Besides nursing (which, despite what mainstream soceity thinks, is not the only way to bond) what is there that a father can't do or that AP *says* he can't do?

Quote:
I am beginning to realize there are all sorts of *little wars* between mothers.
Well, don't blame the "wars" on us. If I had a nickel for every bit of lame "advice" offered to me or my friends about how we're holding our babies too much, about how disgusting it is to nurse an infant who is old enough to "ask for it", about how sick it is to have a family bed, about how we're starving our kids by not feeding them solids at 4 months, about how our marriages simply must be in the toilet b/c we actually put our babies' needs ahead of our own (or that we simply COULDN'T have a good marriage without a regular babysitting night). etc. etc. etc....The worst part is these comments have NO BASIS in fact and are even encountered among so-called medical professionals!

Quote:
I don't belong here or any other the sub boards within this community as they are all apart of the Attachment community.
Well, I don't really get why you are saying that. But I am very sorry that you feel that way.
post #52 of 301
I think that Americans, & those who live in America, have to put up with a whole lot of crap regarding their personal parenting decisions (& i think it is but one example of the judgement that goes on in America about personal decisions). It is not right nor fair for others to walk right up to you & say, 'oh you shouldn't be feeding that baby- he's too big for that now!', or 'you don't really sleep with your baby, do you?- you'll crush him', or 'that baby looks hungry- what do you mean you haven't started giving him rice cereal yet', or 'Ewww, cloth diapers are smelly & unhygenic'. No one has any right to do that- it's rude, it's bossy & it's a rather unattractive character trait that Americans feel this need to tell everyone exactly how they do things & then get offended when you don't immediately jump to do the same. Not all Americans, but many....... The rest of the world really is different folks....... However, it is also not fair for those who are 'different' ie: not mainstream parents to then turn that rude, bossy unsolicited advice giving back into another form of rudeness, by becoming convinced that no, my way is the correct way & anybody who disagrees is wrong. I'm sorry that so many of you have to put up with anti-AP statements & listen to the utter rubbish that comes out of the mouths of some. But it is not necessary to tear others down to make yourself feel better. I am not suggesting that any of the posters on this particular thread would, or have done that....... but I think we can all probably think of examples where that has been done, either explicitly or inadvertently. Just my two bobs worth. Fire away.
post #53 of 301
Quote:
Originally posted by newmommy
I.



(Most)*Mainstream* mothers do practice extended breastfeeding, they do not believe in CIO, they sling, and some do not vaccinate.
*
*
I'm so sorry you don't feel welcome here. As a WOHM, I sometimes feel the same way. I do have to disagree with this statement,however. Other than LLL and one playgroup friend, where I can't go b/c I work, I've NEVER seen a baby in the sling, NEVER talked to a mom that didn't do CIO, NEVER seen a toddler nurse. MDC is the only place I can get that support.
post #54 of 301
I just read your last post newmommy and I think you seem to fit in just fine. Sure there are those of us who would die if we put a sposie on our baby- but really it is just because we are cloth addicts :LOL They are soooo cute! And you seem to fit in the more AP style than the mainstream style.

I think when talking about the *mainstream* one here tends to think of people who just follow along- do what they are told, never think twice about something because a doctor said so or they heard it was bad or nasty. Like my sister- she is VERY mainstream- she told me that if I didnt circ my son she would not change his diaper because that was *nasty* she never thought twice about doing it never read up on it, never talked to her doctor about it- never did a thing to educate herself. Not that I push either way- (okay well I do- sometimes) but, with her it just makes me soooo because she doesnt take the time to educate herself to the effects her actions have on her sons. That to me is mainstream.

Yes we are all mamas, but somepeople take their role more seriously than others. And it looks like you are doing a fine job. Now your first post put many APers on the defence- as if being educated and knowing with a passion why we do the things we do is a bad thing- I dont think it was ment to be like that- you are just saying arent all mamas- mamas??? Well, I think that just like everything there are good mamas and bad mamas- now I CD- does that mean I think everyone that doesnt are bad mamas? NO- but I think that hitting out of anger is bad, I think that not caring is bad, I think that too much sugar and tv is bad. You see what I am saying?

I hope you do come back if you do feel you have an AP style- and if you dont go to the boards here that are not your style then that is fine, you just have to find your right fit.
post #55 of 301
Newmommy, you said a lot of things in your reply post, and I commend you for replying to what we have all said. It seems, though, that people can get hung up on a "term"... i.e. "Attachment" parenting. What it all boils down to is that you see your baby, toddler, child as a person... put yourself in their shoes and make decisions based on what your mothering instinct tells you; what you feel is the best for the child (even though it may not be best/easiest/most convenient for you). My child will be healthier if she is breastfed; she won't be exposed to certain chemicals if I cloth-diaper; she will be healthier if I make wise decisions about vaccinating; she will be a gentle person if I am gentle when I discipline her; she will be better-off socially if I [fill in the blank]. AP is really just a label... maybe it's better to say that those of us here have found that these gentle ways of parenting are rewarding for us and our children. I hope you still feel welcome here because I have found much comfort and rewarding advice. We really are a great bunch of women. And you fit in just fine. Perhaps by sticking around you'll find what you need to breastfeed or cloth-diaper or co-sleep or whatever (!!) with the next one (if you want to). Good luck!!
post #56 of 301
Thread Starter 
Hi again it's me. First I want to thank you for allowing me the opportunity to express my feelings on this (despite the way I presented my thread) very important topic.

Hi Piglet, I'd like to address some of your comments:

You said/My Replies

"Well then what is it that you feel separates you from other mamas here? Sounds like you fit in just fine. What did someone say to you to make you feel like you didn't fit in here?"

My reply:

That's exactly my point. I don't consider myself separate from the other mamas here (or the *mainstream mamas*). No one has said anything to ME to imply that I don't fit in here. But I do notice that if you break 1 "AP" practice (where ever they are)...(ex...going out on a date with your DH without the baby) then all of sudden you are considered like those *mainstream mothers* and something must be wrong with you if you feel the urge to take a break to give yourself some YOU time. I don't feel separate from *AP Mamas* or from *Mainstream Mamas*. These terms are the ones that are separting the mamas. That is what breaks my heart. Do you remember when you were in high school and how you had the cliques (sp?) of the *popular girls* vs. the *uncool girls* and the pressure you felt to be amongst the popular girls? That is kind of how it feels here. Now...that is just my opinion.

You said:

"I basically define "mainstream" parenting as that which is the societal norm. As in, if you met ten people on the street and told them you sleep with your child, how many would not be the least bit surprised (I'm guessing maybe one if you are lucky)? Just about every mama I know would not be surprised and would give you their story on how well or not of how it was going for them. I'm not saying they all co-sleep, but alot of them do and they wouldn't have it anyother way. Not because what society teaches them, but because of their mama instincts. Pediatricians, AAP and every other expert can give guidelines to mamas all day but NOTHING can get take precedent over mama's instincts and what feels right to her. I guess, what I'm saying is don't mix what the EXPERTS tell/suggests mamas do to what mamas ACTUALLY do. Try to consider that mamas DO know better what is best for there children

"Basically, mainstream parenting means that you put your child in a crib because it never occurs to you that a baby might want to sleep next to its mama. And if you are really mainstream you buy the myth that sleeping with your baby is dangerous b/c you might roll over or smother them. And when baby bawls and wakes all night you don't consider it's because babies aren't designed to sleep in isolation, you just consider baby to have "sleep problems' and go buy the latest sleep-training manual." Do you really believe that, in general, when a mama first brings her baby home from the hospital, her FIRST instincts (especially a mother who breastfeeds) will not be... to hold her baby on her chest? My pediatrician's prescription order was to to let our baby sleep on our chest skin to skin contact. But my mothering instinct would'nt have had it any other way. IMO.

"Mainstream says formula versus breastfeeding is simply a lifestyle choice and that formula is "just as good" as breastmilk."Piglet, honestly where in the world are you getting this information? I have not heard 1 single doctor NOT encourage a mother to breastfeed. Including the AAP. Seriously...have you ever heard of Promoting National Breastfeeding Awareness Week? And WHO is Mainstream. Please tell me who this person is or who they are? Also can you find me some information that says this? Formula is a LAST LAST resort and for mamas who feel horrible to have to resort to it (for reasons beyond their control) They (the formula companies) say that they have tried to get formula (or the ingredients) as close as they possibly can to breastmilk 'but buyer beware, it will NEVER be the same so please try to breastfeed your baby'. This is promoted by most formula companies. Period.


"Mainstream parenting says you can hold a child "too much' and that babies need to be taught to soothe themselves. Mainstream parenting is obsessed with making babies "independent". Therefore, you don't childproof your home, you just smack their hands if they touch things they aren't supposed to, and you teach them that life isn't fair by letting them cry it out. Mainstream parenting treats spanking as a legitimate option for discipline, and that if there is no power control by the adult then your child must be spoiled. Mainstream parenting advises giving solids in the bottle to help baby sleep better, and introducing jarred baby food right at four months of age. I could go on, but basically what I'm saying is that these attitudes are the *dominant* ones in our soceity and while individual practices may vary (making it very hard to decide if an individual mom falls into either category), they constitute what is "mainstream".MainPlease, where is this? Seriously, I have got to see this statement backed up.

"Well, you must live in some nice town because that sure as heck isn't my experience"

You know, you could be on to something here, because I experience and see totally different mamas than what you are saying. Also What types of resources do you get your *mainstream* information from...Not mamas but the EXPERTS?

"Why not? I'm serious - could you clarify why a mother who does EBF, doesn't CIO, babywears, etc would not be welcomed here? I just don't understand why you would say that."

Because these are just a FEW "AP" practices here. Consider this... What if she does not co-sleep? What if she vaccinates...ALL of them? What if she feels the urge to have some *her time* Is she still welcomed here? I really don't think so , again because of this STRICT adhered to label/term Attachment Parenting. I get the feeling here it is either ALL or nothing.

I too could go on and on...but I just wanted to address some of your questions/comments.

post #57 of 301
I have to agree with piglet, I don't know any parents IRL that nursed toddlers, used cloth, questioned vax at all (let alone skipped any), co-slept, used a sling and don't spank and never did CIO.

Good for you that all these things seem to be the norm where you are. But it is not the general societal norm in the US.
post #58 of 301
Wow. First of all, I think Piglet was stating her opinions based on her own experiences. I don't think she was saying they were scientific evidence. It seems like I have had many of the same experiences with "mainstream" parenting that she has.

I have had many, many friends tell me that formula is as good as breastmilk, co-sleeping will ruin my marriage, and holding my baby all the time will create a spoiled brat. People are getting this info somehow. People DO believe these things. I think that in our society, mamas are taught not to trust their mothering instincts. It was instinct that told me to bf, co-sleep, and hold my baby 24-7, but with so many people saying these things are unneccessary or even harmful often makes one second-guess themselves. Fortunately, I had MDC to reassure me that trusting my instincts is the right thing to do no matter what others are telling me. I have read in numerous "mainstream" magazines that formula is as healthy as breastmilk, circumcision outside of religious beliefs is healthy, and co-sleeping is dangerous. Parenting is one magazine that comes to mind.

Quote:
Because these are just a FEW "AP" practices here. Consider this... What if she does not co-sleep? What if she vaccinates...ALL of them? What if she feels the urge to have some *her time* Is she still welcomed here? I really don't think so , again because of this STRICT adhered to label/term Attachment Parenting. I get the feeling here it is either ALL or nothing.
You are completely wrong about this. There are mamas here who vaccinate. I know this because I am one of them. There are also mamas here who do not co-sleep. Co-sleeping is not for ALL babies. Some babies prefer their own sleeping space. AP is about respecting and realizing your child's needs. Finally, I don't see how you missed this thread. It's right below this one:
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...hreadid=130630
post #59 of 301
Yeah my neighbors are fairly typical parents and they are the "go get the switch so I can swat you" kool aid in babies bottle, CIO, fully vaxed, plastic diaper, FF parents.
post #60 of 301
Newmommy-

I have been following the thread all along here and finally- from your most recent post- I see the problem.

Evidently you live where we all wish we did. Most mamas here live what Piglet described, we talk about it all the time- it's why most of us feel the need for a space like this (MDC).

Other than LLL- I have never seen a nursing toddler. Other than LLL I have never seen anyone sling-wear. I regularly see people hit or threaten to hit their children. This is the way most of us live. CIO and scheduled feedings are the norm in the US, most pediatricians will recommend both sooner or later, and most parents do both at some point.

You wonder where Piglet is getting this idea of mainstream from (you assume from books) but she has said it, I and others are saying it- "We see it all day long, everywhere we go- outside of LLL meetings and AP playgroups." The parents we know are doing things very differently from us, and we often get dirty looks/rude comments when nursing in public, or wearing baby, or when, heaven forbid- someone hears that we sleep with our children.

So, I think therein lies the problem- you are living where AP is normal- we all want to be wherever you are and you are thinking that it's normal in other places-----IT"S NOT! You are very lucky
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