bedtime discipline advice needed!

[alison77]

at my wit's end with my two boys, ages 5 and 7, at bedtime.  we co-sleep, and boys typically 'need' a parent in the room to go to sleep.  so, typically i am the one that is there, and they want me to sit in between them in the bed, and with a low light on trying to read or do work.  so we will typically read 2 books at regular light levels, then turn them down and boys are supposed to go to bed.  sometimes my younger ds starts laughing, or he will start saying nonsense words or even will start flicking my paper or whatever i am doing.  i will ask please stop and go to sleep, and he may stop for a second, then i have to ask again.  usually what happens is he ultimately does not stop and so i threaten to bring him to his bed, then he continues, and so i do bring him to his bed.  from his bed he is either 1) crying or complaining; or 2) playing and talking/singing/what he was doing before.  if he's not crying right away, ultimately he does, asking to come back to my bed.  he does not give up, and then i of course give up and allow him to come into bed finally.  then he goes to sleep.  but the whole process takes like 1.5 hours.  so while this is going on, my older DS either plays against his brother, trying to set him off even further by saying potty words that he knows will make younger DS laugh, and will not stop until i threaten to leave the room (this is terrible, i know, but sometimes it is the only thing that gets him to stop), or sometimes he is totally quiet and goes to sleep and only younger DS is the problem.

so what happens is with all of this, i end up totally frazzled and my kids go to bed about two hours later than their intended bedtime (which is like 7:30/8 pm, not unreasonably early).  and they don't do this with my husband - at all.  i really need a strategy to reduce this behavior before i totally lose it. 

any advice appreciated!!!!!

[Drummer's Wife]

Any chance they aren't tired at that point?  I don't know what time they wake up or how much sleep they need, but I do know that for my own kids (similar ages) that is way too early to attempt to get them to sleep. 

Since it's taking almost 2 hours to get them to fall asleep, have you tried letting them stay up?  Or do they then proceed to do the same thing for an hour or two before finally giving in? 

Hope you get some helpful advice here.  I don't have experience co-sleeping at that age full-time; my youngest does sleep with us most nights (he's 4), but he will also fall asleep in his own bed as my older 3 kids do.  I know that the times that I have tried to let him lay in bed with 6 yo DS, they are similar to yours in that potty talk and all kinds of craziness ensues.  I end up sending one (usually the older one) away so that they are separated. 

What is it that your DH does differently?  I mean, I know my kids listen to my DH much better than they do me (I can ask them to pick up their toys 80 times and for DH they will do it the first time), but I just wonder what his tactics are that get them calm and not messing around at bed time. 

[alison77]

thank you.

i have considered whether they are not tired enough at that point to go to sleep, and i think sometimes they aren't but typically they are (and sometimes overtired) - when i let them stay up later, they are so hard to wake up in the morning on time for school, so i don't like to let them stay awake until they go to sleep.  i have not tried to have them in their beds and allowed to read on their own, this may be something to try.  what time do your kids get to sleep at night - curious!  the other thing is that 7:30/8 is when we go upstairs - we get ready and then read for at least 1/2 hour, so it's later than that. 

i also think your suggestion of separation would be a good idea.  unfortunately at this point we're all in the same room (so sending them to their bed = in the corner of our room), and that's not enough separation to work.  we will be moving soon, and that may be something we need to consider in setting things up . . . . 

the DH thing - it's a more general theme that they listen SO much better (faster, etc) to him than they do me, not necessarily something specific that he does at night.  sometimes he'll come up when he hears us fighting, and takes over.  which is nice, but not really a long term solution. 

[RoViMama]

What happens if you don't stay in there? Why do they need you to stay with them?  I have a 2.5 yr and almost 5 yr old.  They go to bed between 8-8:30.  We do stories and lay for two songs. Then i leave.  They fall asleep in their own room (shared) but 5 out of 7 nights, they both end up in our bed.  I think I would just set a routine, leave and let them argue until it gets old and they go to sleep.  Eventually, they will. 

Or if they lay quietly, stay.  Set some boundaries of what is okay and what is not.  I am a fan of 3 strikes.  Don't say anything but "that's 1, 2, 3" and then leave.  There will be tears and cajoling but there have to be limits set somewhere right?

[alison77]

thanks - i love your photo, rovimama, by the way:)  they get upset when i leave and carry on, but it does have to end at some point.  i think we need to create a new bedtime routine which includes me reading to them, then i go perhaps into the next room to do work or whatever and they go to sleep on their own.  it's an entirely reasonably idea. 

[ssh]

When do they get up in the morning? 5 year olds sleep from 10 to 12 hours per day and 7 years olds 10 to 11 hours. The only way to get my 5 year old DD to go to sleep earlier is to wake her earlier. She sleeps 10 and then is up for 14 hours. If she was going to sleep at 8 her wake up time would need to be 6am. The time your DSs actually go to sleep, 9:30 or 10, is a good go to bed time for our household because no one is up before 7:30.

I don't think going to sleep is a behavior issue because sleeping is a physical need that's controlled by our bodies not a deliberate choice. If I forget when she woke up and try to get my DD to go to sleep before she's been up long enough she plays in bed, sings loudly, etc. She's just not tired enough to sleep.

[jackson'smama]

my boys are 6 and 3.5.  they both co-slept with us until each was several years of age.  they now have bunks in the room next door.  but for the longest time (something about the addition of baby sister) - they wanted to sleep in the big bed...and while it's a king, there isn't enough room for dh, myself, a baby, and two little boys!  so, we start the night in the big bed in our "nest" reading stories.  then, we move them over to the bunks and they can look at books or play with a quiet toy or puzzle or chat and make funny noises and laugh hysterically until lights out.  after lights out, they can still talk quietly but not loud enough to be heard downstairs.  they drift off to sleep during this time - usually the oldest is first. 

here are our stats

ds 6 yrs awakes between 5am and 6am, is asleep by about 8:15 pm most nights

ds 3.5 yrs awakes between 7am and 8am, is asleep by about 8:30/8:45 pm most nights.

we get in the next by 7pm, sometimes 6:30 if i wanna read alot to them.  we move from nest to bunks about 7:30.  lights out at 8pm.

it works great for us now, and the key was letting them have that time to themselves with reading lights on for about 30 minutes.  you should hear some of the conversations they don't know we can hear!  hilarious!

good luck!

[D_McG]

Originally Posted by RoViMama 

What happens if you don't stay in there? Why do they need you to stay with them?  I have a 2.5 yr and almost 5 yr old.  They go to bed between 8-8:30.  We do stories and lay for two songs. Then i leave.  They fall asleep in their own room (shared) but 5 out of 7 nights, they both end up in our bed.  I think I would just set a routine, leave and let them argue until it gets old and they go to sleep.  Eventually, they will. 

Or if they lay quietly, stay.  Set some boundaries of what is okay and what is not.  I am a fan of 3 strikes.  Don't say anything but "that's 1, 2, 3" and then leave.  There will be tears and cajoling but there have to be limits set somewhere right?

I agree with this. I think at their age they're just too big to have you there and it not be a distraction. Certainly my two have outrgown me being with them. It just doesn't work anymore. They need to be alone, quiet to wind down. I would start a new bedtime routine and expect the drama that comes with it but know it's what they need.

Originally Posted by ssh 

>I don't think going to sleep is a behavior issue because sleeping is a physical need that's controlled by our bodies not a deliberate choice.

I have not had that experience. We have definitely had behavioral issues with both of mine at bedtime where they get worked up and can't relax and then they're overtired and it's a vicious circle. Strict limits at bedtime keep everyone settled and well rested here!

[pianojazzgirl]

Like some other pps have suggested, I think I'd institute a change to the routine, by which you have a nice snuggle/story time, but then leave them to fall asleep by themselves (knowing that you are right there in the next room).  I definitely think it's doable for (most) kiddos that age to fall asleep "on their own" (though they have each other!), and it's not unlikely that you staying in the room is adding distraction.  Some quiet chatting before they fall asleep wouldn't bother me, but if they end up fooling around too much I'd probably put them each in their own bed, or one in the big bed and one in the other bed (I wasn't sure from your post if they each have their own bed, or if there's just one other bed in the room).  IMO that approach wouldn't be too harsh or un-gentle.

[mary934]

Hi,

beside a bed time ritual , maybe give  them a natural substance called - melatonin which helps to reset thekid's  biological clock  and helps them fall asleep 

check with your pdoc .  If kids are not tired it is quiet difficult to get them to sleep 

You might check out ' mindfulness for children '  and teaching them meditation or how to soothe themselves to sleep 

I hope this helps

[hakeber]

Have tried letting the younger one go down first and then the older one?  Just a thought.

When my family shared a bed at that age, I went to bed with my mom first and then when I was sleeping she'd bring my sister in (having bathed her and read her stories and done songs in the living room) and then brought her in for sleep.  

Then my parents would come in later.  Otherwise we got silly.  Because it's fun and snuggly and easy to be silly.

Do you think that might work?

Could the older do something with their dad while you get the little one down?  DS gets up at about 6am for school and I can usually get him to bed at 6 or 7 ish.  If I let him stay up much later he is awake until about 10.  It's a cycle thing, I think.  maybe if you got your youngest down by 6 and asleep by seven, maybe the older one could start his routine with Daddy and come in at 8?

Just brainstorming.  That situation sounds really hard to handle, especially if you have work to do!