If you don't fully vaccinate, are you concerned about TEOTWAWKI?

[liliaceae]

We don't vax our kids, and I'm (fairly) comfortable with that decision, largely because we have things like modern medicine, clean water, and a low chance of exposure. But what if we didn't have those things? What happens in case of The End Of The World As We Know It? What if our society collapses and we no longer have access to modern medicine and clean water?

Is anyone else concerned about this? I'd love to hear from those of you that do think that TEOTWAWKI is a real possibility in our lifetimes. Would you consider vaxing just in case of a future disaster? If we are able to see TEOTWAWKI slowly approaching, will you start trying to catch up on vaxes? I'd love to hear your thoughts.

[BeckyBird]

I am happy to see someone using the term "TEOTWAWKI" here on MDC. I fully expect to see lots of posts criticizing you, me, and anybody else who believes in the possibility of TEOTWAWKI. My advice--try not to pay attention to the naysayers. They have their opinion, and we have ours. Let's pray that our opinion never becomes a reality, but let's still prepare for it just in case

So, since you asked for feedback from people who think TEOTWAWKI is possible, I would love to respond. First of all, invest in a water filter. We bought an Aquarain filter--a high quality nonelectric water filter. We actually needed a filter, TEOTWAWKI or not, since we lose electricity several times per year, and of course, our well pump is electric!  The filter came in handy when we lost power from the last snowstorm.

As for vaccines, I don't want to vaccinate out of fear of a collapse. I am part of the minority who believes that vaccines cause more damage than good. So, instead, I am learning how to naturally heal/prevent certain illnesses. Actually, the threat of TEOTWAWKI has inspired me to change my life in many ways.

If you want to be healthy, why not grow your own food, or at least buy organic? Stock up on quality vitamin supplements and food. Learn about silver, fermented foods, probiotics, honey, etc. Become more self-sufficient, and less reliant on a crumbling system. Preparing for TEOTWAWKI will change your life, and it can be a fun, rewarding challenge if you let it.

And, to all of you who snicker at the thought of TEOTWAWKI, I feel sorry for you. To think your country will remain in a wealthy, first world status forever is totally naive. There is always, always the possibility of change, no matter who you are or where you live. We are just as vulnerable to a collapse as anybody else. You are living in a dream world if you think nothing bad could ever happen!

A wise person should prepare for the hard times, and enjoy life during the good times. TEOTWAWKI might not ever happen in our lifetime, and we will be fortunate if it doesn't. Still, there is a need to be prepared, just in case it does happen!

[Lakeeffectsnow]

I saw this under new posts.  I find the whole idea of the "End of the world as we know it" rather self absorbed.  I'm pretty sure for the people of Darfur, Japan, Somalia, and many other places around world, "the end of the world as they know it " is here.  I'm all in favor of self reliance and strive for myself, but I'm also believe in offering help to the people whose world is ending right now.

I have a ridiculous and completely illogical fear of radiation.  I logically know the risks, the statistics, and reality.  My first and viscerally reaction is to run out and buy pottasium iodine, buy and hoard all the staples (pre March 14th of course) I can find, and keep my kids indoor 24/7.  I lie over 9,000 miles from Japan (yay, I mapquested it on March 14th).  I already have a reverse osmosis water system, buy local grown natural beef and chicken (stored away in my freezer).  We have a generator, can heat with wood/passive solar, gravity feed water, we have chickens and grow some of our own veggies.

But, the reality is the potassium iodine needs to go to Japan where the people who are actually exposed to the radiation.  Keeping my kids inside 24/7 will cause more long term damage to their psyche and my mental health.  My biggest regret is that my youngest is so small.  I'm a nurse.  I was able to go with a volunteer group to help after in New Orleans after Katrina and Hurricane Rita.  I was able to go to Mexico during the flooding in 2007 and Haiti after the earthquake.  If my youngest wasn't still breastfeeding, I'd consider going to to Japan. to help, if they would let me. 

[Arduinna]

No, I don't see that scenario as a reason to vax. After all if TEOTWAWKI really happened those that are vaxed would only be "safe" as long as their "vax immunity" held out. And then what is your plan?

[chaoticzenmom]

Now, I'm going to have that song stuck in my head all day...feel sorry for me for that. 

I think that a catastrophic event is always possible and it can't hurt to feel prepared.  If VPD's are part of your fear of catastrophe, maybe a selective vaccination schedule would make you feel safer.  Remember that fear sells and that people are always going to be playing on that.  People have always felt that things were going "to hell in a handbasket."  In some ways things are improving in the world and in other ways, they're not.  I find that staying away from the news and staying away from things that seem sensationalized help me tremendously.  When I was dealing with PPD and telling my husband all of the horrible things that were sure to happen and that we had to be prepared for them all, he reminded me that whatever may happen is surely not going to be anything that I've thought about and I was wasting so much energy fretting about the "what-ifs" that it was like I was living it when I didn't have to.  Do what you have to do to feel secure and gather up an emergency kit, but then re-assess where you're getting this information and maybe you should shut it out for awhile and see if you don't feel a little better about the world.  It really does depend on where you get your news, what kinds of fears you have.  I have a fear of our world turning into a theocracy and people being thrown out into the street with no possibility for help...which would seem weird to a lot of people, but where I get my news, that's the thing that brings fear and anger to the reader.  That's what sells the magazines I read.  "Don't live it if you don't have to and if you do have to live it, let the time that it's really happening be the only time you have to live it." (this is the phrase I used to get my through my ppd anxiety)

Back to your question, I would not consider vaccinating in case of future disaster, but if the thought of diseases caused me to be anxious a lot, then I would then consider vaccination.

[amnesiac]

I wonder which diseases specifically you are thinking would be more problematic in that case?

[heathergirl67]

I do think of the end of the world as we know it, but perhaps from more of a religious stance than most.

However, my concerns about TEOTWAWKI have nothing to do with infectious disease. My infectious disease concerns have to do with TWAWKI (the world as we know it). That is why I am pro-(mostly) immunization. There is just so much sickness floating around and I would prefer that me and those I love are spared from that suffering if possible. I accept that other people have other opinions, but I was just hoping to add my own two cents !

Also, I don't see TEOTWAWKI as a slow-growing type of thing. I see it as more of a "thief in the night" type of thing, so that may be where I differ from you. I just think it's not something that can be expected.

[PlayaMama]

yes. i think that our future is not certain and, when i can't order sodium ascorbate over the internet, i'd like my children to have as much protection as possible from some diseases.

i really do think that having clean water and a sanitation system in place are things that people often take for granted, myself included. imagining conditions without those facilities in place affirms my decision to vaccinate my children for things that they might not necessarily encounter in our current situation, like polio.

[liliaceae]

Originally Posted by BeckyBird 

I am happy to see someone using the term "TEOTWAWKI" here on MDC. I fully expect to see lots of posts criticizing you, me, and anybody else who believes in the possibility of TEOTWAWKI. My advice--try not to pay attention to the naysayers. They have their opinion, and we have ours. Let's pray that our opinion never becomes a reality, but let's still prepare for it just in case

So, since you asked for feedback from people who think TEOTWAWKI is possible, I would love to respond. First of all, invest in a water filter. We bought an Aquarain filter--a high quality nonelectric water filter. We actually needed a filter, TEOTWAWKI or not, since we lose electricity several times per year, and of course, our well pump is electric!  The filter came in handy when we lost power from the last snowstorm.

As for vaccines, I don't want to vaccinate out of fear of a collapse. I am part of the minority who believes that vaccines cause more damage than good. So, instead, I am learning how to naturally heal/prevent certain illnesses. Actually, the threat of TEOTWAWKI has inspired me to change my life in many ways.

If you want to be healthy, why not grow your own food, or at least buy organic? Stock up on quality vitamin supplements and food. Learn about silver, fermented foods, probiotics, honey, etc. Become more self-sufficient, and less reliant on a crumbling system. Preparing for TEOTWAWKI will change your life, and it can be a fun, rewarding challenge if you let it.

And, to all of you who snicker at the thought of TEOTWAWKI, I feel sorry for you. To think your country will remain in a wealthy, first world status forever is totally naive. There is always, always the possibility of change, no matter who you are or where you live. We are just as vulnerable to a collapse as anybody else. You are living in a dream world if you think nothing bad could ever happen!

A wise person should prepare for the hard times, and enjoy life during the good times. TEOTWAWKI might not ever happen in our lifetime, and we will be fortunate if it doesn't. Still, there is a need to be prepared, just in case it does happen!

I would have thought more MDC mamas would realize the possibility of TEOTWAWKI. I mean, I think most of us realize that our current way of life (at least in the U.S.) is not sustainable. Anyway, thank you for the advice, I'm just now beginning my journey to become more self-sufficient.

Originally Posted by Lakeeffectsnow 

I saw this under new posts.  I find the whole idea of the "End of the world as we know it" rather self absorbed.  I'm pretty sure for the people of Darfur, Japan, Somalia, and many other places around world, "the end of the world as they know it " is here.  I'm all in favor of self reliance and strive for myself, but I'm also believe in offering help to the people whose world is ending right now.

I have a ridiculous and completely illogical fear of radiation.  I logically know the risks, the statistics, and reality.  My first and viscerally reaction is to run out and buy pottasium iodine, buy and hoard all the staples (pre March 14th of course) I can find, and keep my kids indoor 24/7.  I lie over 9,000 miles from Japan (yay, I mapquested it on March 14th).  I already have a reverse osmosis water system, buy local grown natural beef and chicken (stored away in my freezer).  We have a generator, can heat with wood/passive solar, gravity feed water, we have chickens and grow some of our own veggies.

But, the reality is the potassium iodine needs to go to Japan where the people who are actually exposed to the radiation.  Keeping my kids inside 24/7 will cause more long term damage to their psyche and my mental health.  My biggest regret is that my youngest is so small.  I'm a nurse.  I was able to go with a volunteer group to help after in New Orleans after Katrina and Hurricane Rita.  I was able to go to Mexico during the flooding in 2007 and Haiti after the earthquake.  If my youngest wasn't still breastfeeding, I'd consider going to to Japan. to help, if they would let me. 

I'm not sure why you think the idea of TEOTWAWKI is self-absorbed...would it be better if we called it "The end of North America as we know it"? Doesn't sound quite as catchy. I do think it's possible to be aware that our nation could be devastated, and still care about and help other nations that are already devastated. And actually the events in Japan are what really got me started thinking about all this.

Originally Posted by Arduinna 

No, I don't see that scenario as a reason to vax. After all if TEOTWAWKI really happened those that are vaxed would only be "safe" as long as their "vax immunity" held out. And then what is your plan?

It's been awhile since I researched vaccines, so forgive me if this is a stupid question, but do all vaccines require boosters?

Originally Posted by amnesiac 

I wonder which diseases specifically you are thinking would be more problematic in that case?

Well, any disease that could be cured with modern medicine, or any disease that would spread more easily without modern sanitation and clean water.

Originally Posted by PlayaMama 

yes. i think that our future is not certain and, when i can't order sodium ascorbate over the internet, i'd like my children to have as much protection as possible from some diseases.

i really do think that having clean water and a sanitation system in place are things that people often take for granted, myself included. imagining conditions without those facilities in place affirms my decision to vaccinate my children for things that they might not necessarily encounter in our current situation, like polio.

Thanks for your input, I'm glad I'm not the only one thinking about this!

[littlec]

Am I the only one trying to say "TEOTWAWKI " as a word? Tee-ot-waw-ki.

I would likely not vaccinate if the world changed, but this thread has given me a lot to think about regarding how much I rely on the world as we know it.

[laohaire]

I don't claim to know what the future will look like, and I don't claim to know the exact efficacy of vaccines nor the exact dangers of them.

But personally, no, I'm not inclined to run out and vaccinate my family to prepare for TEOTWAWKI or even just SHTF. Maybe I'm wrong, but it's just not how I see things.

Things I think are important:

- Storage of clean water supply

- Provisions and know-how to purify additional water

- Knowledge of where to get water to purify, and any equipment needed (rainbarrel attached to non-toxic catchment, nearby stream, etc)

- Setup of a hand washing station operated by foot or other (so you don't cross contaminate with dirty hands) - see www.tippytap.org for a great idea on that

- Storage, access to, and knowledge to grow good, nourishing food

- Emergency medical references (preferably with survival perspective, which will describe how you can makeshift certain tools or medicines)

- Supply kit of basic medicines and first aid (and beyond) though the medicines will all eventually expire anyway

I'm just having a hard time picturing thinking "darn, we should have gotten the MMR." I mean, I guess I could see it, but it doesn't seem to really relate to TEOTWAWKI, at least as far as I can see. I mean, maybe everything will collapse because of a measles outbreak... but if that's the case, then I would assume the vaccine was ineffective anyway, right?

[PlayaMama]

i don't think it's that the world will collapse from a measles outbreak, but more that a consistent reasoning for not needing vaccines is better sanitary conditions and clean water.

so, given the lack of those conditions for a long-term amount of time and it seems plausible and logical that diseases would come back. in that case, i'd like my kids to have whatever sort of protection they can.