Honour Roll/Potential Suspension - same kid, same day *sigh* - Page 3

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Originally Posted by mtiger 

Here's the thing - NO ONE is indispensable. Really. No, not even Audrey's puppeteer. They could easily find a teacher to pick up the slack, if not another kid. We've done Little Shop - and it's not THAT hard a job. Sorry. If your kid wants to do the musical? I wouldn't play that card.

As for the rest? Just because your son always does these sorts of stunts doesn't mean they're appropriate for the venue he performs them in. There does come a point when we should be able to expect our kids to use some level of common sense.

I'm not fond of suspension myself, but if that's the tool they use, then such is life.

Thank you.  That was my point all along, I just didn't say it so simply.  Just because you CAN jump on the roof of a storage room, doesn't mean you SHOULD jump in it.

There should not be a sign for the kids saying "This ceiling cannot support your weight, it is only drywall".  And, the school shouldn't make a ceiling stronger to support the weight of a teenager who might decide to jump on it.  It is not the responsibility of the school to make ceilings safer for kids to jump on them.

This is why coffee cups have to say "Coffee is hot and can cause burns if spilled on skin".  And why my new pack n Play says "do not use near open flame".

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by mtiger 

Here's the thing - NO ONE is indispensable. Really. No, not even Audrey's puppeteer. They could easily find a teacher to pick up the slack, if not another kid. We've done Little Shop - and it's not THAT hard a job. Sorry. If your kid wants to do the musical? I wouldn't play that card.

I'm not going to play that card, because ds1 would be crushed. Seymour is his best male friend. Audrey is his best female friend. He'd feel like worm if he got pulled out of the show.

However, ds1 has put in 4-5 hours a night, just learning how to run the puppet, and when he's supposed to do what. It's taken him some effort. I don't believe that people are  indispensable, in general, but I do believe people can be situationally indispensable, and ds1 comes pretty close to that right now. Opening night is Wednesday - there's really not enough time for anyone to learn the part, yk?

As for the rest? Just because your son always does these sorts of stunts doesn't mean they're appropriate for the venue he performs them in. There does come a point when we should be able to expect our kids to use some level of common sense.

Well, I see things differently, because I wouldn't/don't have an issue with this particular behaviour. DH is, admittedly, in the "there's no way he should be doing something like this in school" camp, though. I don't see why a school is an inappropriate venue for something like this. During school hours, with people all over the place? Sure. But, at 8:30 at night, when the halls are almost completely empty? I just don't see the big deal. I don't see this as being about common sense.

After ds1 revealed to me last night that he's heard many kids over the years talk about doing that jump, I think the school is going to need to address this. DS1 is the kind of kid who would do it, but he's not the only kid like that. It probably won't happen for a few years, because the story of "that kid who went right through the ceiling" will make the rounds, but it probably will happen again. This part of the school was put in when the renovated, and that was only five years ago, so it's not like this tempting spot has survived decades of kids until now, yk? I'm a bit concerned about that, although I wasn't before ds1 mentioned that lots of kids have talked about jumping it.

I'm not fond of suspension myself, but if that's the tool they use, then such is life.

Well, I can't necessarily stop them, but we'll do our best.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by nextcommercial 

This is why coffee cups have to say "Coffee is hot and can cause burns if spilled on skin".  And why my new pack n Play says "do not use near open flame".

I disagree completely. He definitely should have been certain of his jump target, but this isn't the kind of common sense thing that hot coffee or setting a Pack and Play on fire is. He knew he could make the jump, and had no way to know that ceilings can be made of substances that can't support a person's weight.
 

[Lisa1970]

I don't think he meant to damage it. But I am confused...where was this dry wall? Was it a place kids walk? I would be a little concerned the school was not safe enough if it has straight dry wall where kids walk or something.

I would let him serve the suspension with no computer or cell during that time and let it go. It does not sound like a big deal to me. 

[Lisa1970]

So he was jumping on a ceiling or roof? That makes more sense then. I think that is a bigger deal because it sounds like a place he should not have been regardless of damages. I would keep him grounded until all time served.

[heartmama]

I just want to disagree with the statements that imply intent does not matter, rules are rules. This is definitely not the way the real world works. Intent is very important in a legal sense. Whether or not you INTENDED to do x absolutely may impact the consequences you face.

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Originally Posted by Storm Bride 

I disagree completely. He definitely should have been certain of his jump target, but this isn't the kind of common sense thing that hot coffee or setting a Pack and Play on fire is. He knew he could make the jump, and had no way to know that ceilings can be made of substances that can't support a person's weight.
 

OK.. lets say he was at my house.  I have a shed that my husband built.  It might support the weight of a 17 yr old.  He could easily jump on it from the ground.  But, I would be very mad that he did... because it isn't HIS.  It isn't YOURS it's mine, and I don't want him jumping on it.  I also have closets inside my house that stick out, have a ceiling and there's enough space for a full size adult to stand on it without hitting their heads.  But, I don't want someone jumping from the bed to land on the top of the closet.  It could be done... but, I don't allow that in my house.  I don't give a rat's tail if he's certain of his jumping target. It's not intended for jumping on, and it's mine.  Not his.  

I saw the video of the kid jumping off the Coke machine.  I think he jumped from the roof of the building to the Coke machine, then he was going to jump from the Coke machine to a stair rail.  But, he missed.    FIne.. he expected to make the jump.... however it's not his Coke Machine.  He was sure of his landing... but, it wasn't HIS.  

I do agree that suspension is overdoing it.  But, it's what they use.  

As his parent, I would be incredibly proud that he was owning up to it, and he felt bad about it, and he intended to make it right.  That is all we want in our kids.. someone who is responsible and intelligent.   I am very impressed with him.  I know many kids his same age that would just try to hide the evidence, or flat out lie to get out of trouble.  Since he's more than willing to fix what he's done, I think that is best, and the suspension should be dropped.  But, I wouldn't try to justify it by saying "he was sure of his landing".  Because that isn't even the point.  The point is, he had no business being up there at all.

[JessBB]

I'm sorry, but I think doing acrobatics inside a school at any time is dumb, dangerous and should definitely be punished. Suspension may be a bit much but you aren't doing your son any favors okaying this behavior. If it was on private property he could well be arrested and charged.

[mtiger]

>Well, I see things differently, because I wouldn't/don't have an issue with this particular behaviour. DH is, admittedly, in the "there's no way he should be doing something like this in school" camp, though. I don't see why a school is an inappropriate venue for something like this. During school hours, with people all over the place? Sure. But, at 8:30 at night, when the halls are almost completely empty? I just don't see the big deal. I don't see this as being about common sense.

Given that he went through the ceiling? You don't see that it was inappropriate behavior? Okay. I see THAT differently.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by mtiger 

>Well, I see things differently, because I wouldn't/don't have an issue with this particular behaviour. DH is, admittedly, in the "there's no way he should be doing something like this in school" camp, though. I don't see why a school is an inappropriate venue for something like this. During school hours, with people all over the place? Sure. But, at 8:30 at night, when the halls are almost completely empty? I just don't see the big deal. I don't see this as being about common sense.

Given that he went through the ceiling? You don't see that it was inappropriate behavior? Okay. I see THAT differently.

*sigh*

I don't think it's inherently inappropriate to be doing acrobatics in school, is what I was getting at.

[Storm Bride]

I'm back from our meeting.

He's not suspended. He'll be paying for the repairs, of course. He's also going to have to toe the line, because his grad privileges are "on hold" (ie. we have a stick to use to make you behave, even though you're clearly remorseful, have a 4 year, 7 month clean record, etc.), and he'll be doing some kind of school service. As expected, he was okay with this.  He also embraced my suggestion that he spread the word about having to pay for this with is own money, as that will help deter people from doing it, since there seems to be a deep-seated desire to do so among the student body, in general. DH and I gave the Principal a heads-up about the fact that kids often talk about making this exact jump, and suggested that she put something on surface to dissuade them. A vase would look good, and do the job, imo. It's probably too expensive, but it would be a good idea to replace the railing on the overlooking balcony, too. It's about 8" deep, and even I found myself thinking that it would be easy to stand on (which is what ds1 did when he made the jump).

Having seen the spot, I'm astonished that ds1 jumped it, but I've never figured out how I ended up with a kid who's prone to this kind of thing in the first place. I'm one of the least kinesthetically gifted people on the planet! It would never have crossed my mind to jump to a surface like that.

I really, really dislike the Principal, but I always have. Even when I agreed with her, the way she phrased things set my teeth on edge. I let dh do most of the talking, because he's better at standing his ground without getting made than I am.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by nextcommercial 

OK.. lets say he was at my house.  I have a shed that my husband built.  It might support the weight of a 17 yr old.  He could easily jump on it from the ground.  But, I would be very mad that he did... because it isn't HIS.  It isn't YOURS it's mine, and I don't want him jumping on it.  I also have closets inside my house that stick out, have a ceiling and there's enough space for a full size adult to stand on it without hitting their heads.  But, I don't want someone jumping from the bed to land on the top of the closet.  It could be done... but, I don't allow that in my house.  I don't give a rat's tail if he's certain of his jumping target. It's not intended for jumping on, and it's mine.  Not his.  

This is dh's stance, too. Fair enough. People have the right to their own expectations on their own property. It just never crossed my mind that anybody would care about this kind of stuff (on outdoor things, at least - defnitely get people not wanting footprints all over their interior and such). I'd be pissed if someone damaged my property and didn't own up, but just jumping on/off it? It never even registered on my radar as something to be bothered by...

In any case, this doesn't apply to the school. It doesn't belong to the Principal. It's owned by the taxpayers. I just don't see the issue with running, jumping, etc.

As his parent, I would be incredibly proud that he was owning up to it, and he felt bad about it, and he intended to make it right.  That is all we want in our kids.. someone who is responsible and intelligent.   I am very impressed with him.  I know many kids his same age that would just try to hide the evidence, or flat out lie to get out of trouble.  Since he's more than willing to fix what he's done, I think that is best, and the suspension should be dropped.  But, I wouldn't try to justify it by saying "he was sure of his landing".  Because that isn't even the point.  The point is, he had no business being up there at all.

I had no interest in defending his jump to the Principal. He says himself that it was a stupid thing to do, so why would I try to change his mind? Nearly five years of "I bet I could jump on that" finally connected with "I have a good opportunity to try it", and the result was very bad. He's not going to do it again.

I'm very proud of him. Covering up, lying and hiding things just don't seem to be on his radar. The couple of times that he hasn't fessed up to something immediately, his conscience has bothered him so much that he confessed on his own within days. Both times, he could have gotten away with it clean, and both times, he expected to be in really big trouble (justifiably so on one of them, although the other one was hard for me to take seriously). He's just not into trying to get away with stuff, which definitely makes my life as a parent a lot easier.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by LiLStar 

The "behaving inappropriately" doesn't hold water for me, because lets say there *had* been wood there like he thought, and probably had good reason to think because again.. who makes a ceiling with JUST drywall? That can't be safe for anyone in the room. Think wind storms, and debris. Ceiling=sturdy/wood is a pretty reasonable assumption.

It's actually an indoor thing, so there's no safety concern about wind, debris, etc.. I'd have assumed it was solid, too, though (not sure why, really - think it's just the default most people's brains jump to re: horizontal surfaces or something).

Okay, so assuming it was, and he'd made the jump successfully and not fallen through or caused damage, would he have been in trouble? I seriously doubt it. If they refuse to budge on the suspension, I'd probably try to make the days off school EXTRA special somehow. Any particular place he's been wanting to go freerunning at? :D or cool amusement parks? I'd be like, "your school sucks, its time to PAAAARTY!" Stick it to them by turning a punishment into a reward. Getting hurt and paying for damage is PLENTY of consequence, so any further illogical punishments that aren't avoidable, I'd be quite tempted to simply negate!

He's not going to be allowed to play Ultimate this year. That's not a big deal, because he would have missed most of the season over Little Shop rehearsals. But, it does kind of suck for him. And, contrary to what the Principal seems to think, it's not going to have any kind of good impact on him. If he does miss the grad banquet (he has an implied - not stated, of course - promise that he won't, if he toes the line), it's just going to shift his viewpoint from "I screwed up, and need to make up for it" to "I'm getting shafted for one mistake". Pointless, self-defeating overkill, in the name of "discipline". Blech. The injury, the money and some school service would have been perfect, imo - hit him where it hurts, both physically and financially, and give a clear sign to the other students that the school considers his behaviour unacceptable. If he misses the banquet over this, they've just sent the student body the usual "we're unreasonable tyrants" message and undermined themselves. Not that I care that much at this point - he has about 10 weeks left, and I think I may just homeschool the other three al the way through. I used to think I'd put them in school for their high school years, but I haven't been very impressed by what I've seen at ds1's school, either educationally or with respect to the life lessons they attempt to teach.

[LynnS6]

Originally Posted by Storm Bride ETA: Honestly, after the initial "you did what??" reaction, I had to laugh. I can only imagine his face as he went through. One of his best friends saw it, and I feel sorry for her, because she apparently freaked out - thought he'd died or something. (I can relate - he was warming up on the rings the provincial gymnastics finals last year, and one of them came loose while he was upside down, and he plummeted to the mat. I've never been so scared in my life.)

That sounds like a scene from a movie!

I can totally see a kid doing that and not realizing it. Yes, he caused major damage. Yes, he probably should have thought ahead. But he's a teenager. They aren't renowned for their ability to think ahead! I don't think it's that big of a deal. He owned up to it (a very mature and responsible thing!), feels bad and is willing to make restitution. I agree that suspension is probably over the top, but I wouldn't argue too hard with the school. Schools get a lot of parents who try to rescue their kids from things they've done wrong. "Oh no, little (6'4") Johnny did really mean to body slam that freshman into the locker, he doesn't deserve detention..." So, they tend to be relatively inflexible about that sort of thing.

I guess I'd help him do what he needs to do, and then let the school deal with their end.

[*MamaJen*]

Haven't read all the replies, but first of...parkour is awesome. I would be totally stoked if my DS got into it when he was older. I may have to cover my eyes a bunch, but I think it teaches kids such amazing lessons. It's great for kids to learn how to use their bodies like that in a context other than team sports. Outside of organized sports, it really seems like it's become criminalized for kids to be physical. Also, I've lurked on some of the message boards and their philosophy about things like self-growth and community and humility is really striking.

It seems like the school's response was ultimately pretty appropriate. Paying for the damages and community service is what I would have come up with too.

More to the point, I would be really proud of my DS for the way he responded. He made a mistake, he owned up to the damage he caused and he's willing to fix the mistake. It seems like he learned a good lesson from it. And he also learned a good parkour lesson about picking the right location for tricks, and for checking his target. I would have been angry if he had deliberately vandalized school property. This was an accident on par with sending a baseball through a neighbor's window. You fix what you broke, but you're not a bad person for breaking it.

Public high school is probably not an appropriate place for freerunning, and it sounds like your son knows this now. I think there's a lot of good lessons he's learning in this situation.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by LynnS6 

That sounds like a scene from a movie!

I can totally see a kid doing that and not realizing it. Yes, he caused major damage. Yes, he probably should have thought ahead. But he's a teenager. They aren't renowned for their ability to think ahead! I don't think it's that big of a deal. He owned up to it (a very mature and responsible thing!), feels bad and is willing to make restitution. I agree that suspension is probably over the top, but I wouldn't argue too hard with the school. Schools get a lot of parents who try to rescue their kids from things they've done wrong. "Oh no, little (6'4") Johnny did really mean to body slam that freshman into the locker, he doesn't deserve detention..." So, they tend to be relatively inflexible about that sort of thing.

Yeah. I got that at the meeting. DH drew up an agenda (because the Principal is a control freak, and that was very obvious very early), and it included points about what was best for ds1, and the best interests of the school. But, almost the first words out of her mouth made it clear that she was assuming that our only concern was ds1, and we felt the school could go hang. Soooo not true.

Actually, something else occurred to me a little while ago. I was trying to figure out why the authorities in these situations seem to have so much trouble figuring out that just piling artificial consequences onto a kid backfires as often as it does. And, I think some of it ties into the whole forced apology thing. DS1 was expected to approach the Vice-Principal (who was along on the field trip yesterday) with an apology and explanation for his actions. And...I don't get it. Expecting an apology accomplishes what, exactly? If he's sorry, he'll apologize on his own. If he's not sorry, it won't mean anything if he does. But, this is an expectation, so lots of kids go through a meaningless, pro forma, apology, because it's expected. What that means is that when ds1 says, "I'm sorry - I screwed up", the staff doesn't realize that he means that. They probably assume that dh and I told him to say it, and he's doing what he's told. So, how are they supposed to realize that they're working on switching him from truly repentant to feeling picked on (he hasn't said this, but I know him, and it's probably happening), when they don't know that's he's truly repentant in the first place? To them, this is all the standard dance of offense-apology-restitution-stick/carrot-behaviour improvement (if any).

I have to say that when I have a kid who was talking to us for 10-15 minutes about what he did, and what the damage was, and how to fix it, etc. before he even told us that he'd hurt himself, it's kind of frustrating to watch this whole routine go down. We went in there with the position that he should pay for the damages, out of his own pocket, and do extra school service (he's a member of the Interact Club, so he already does a lot of service stuff), so it's not like we were saying, "let him off the hook"...

I guess I'd help him do what he needs to do, and then let the school deal with their end.

It's not like we have much choice. I'll be so glad to have this whole school thing over with. When I was a teenager (and a juvenile delinquent, at that), I thought on some levels that I'd understand them better when I was an adult. I understand some things better, but a lot of it still makes no sense to me, and I disagree with about 90% of what I understand better. Schools are effed up on so many levels.

[MusicianDad]

Originally Posted by LynnS6 

That sounds like a scene from a movie!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oWk4ZiuSHE

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by *MamaJen* 

Haven't read all the replies, but first of...parkour is awesome. I would be totally stoked if my DS got into it when he was older. I may have to cover my eyes a bunch, but I think it teaches kids such amazing lessons. It's great for kids to learn how to use their bodies like that in a context other than team sports. Outside of organized sports, it really seems like it's become criminalized for kids to be physical. Also, I've lurked on some of the message boards and their philosophy about things like self-growth and community and humility is really striking.

re: the bolded. You're not kidding. I've been covering my eyes since he was about five. I think it's doubly difficult, because I'm not very coordinated or athletic, and couldn't begin to do most of what he does. I also lack depth perception, so many things he does appear even more risky to me than they really are, just because of my screwy eyesight. But, I do think it's really awesome stuff.

I also agree about how hard it is for kids to get out and do physical stuff outside of team sports. I see teenagers out having an impromptu game of Ultimate or something, and people around just glare at them like their knocking over mailboxes or something. (Maybe it's jealousy - I definitely envy their energy level!)

It seems like the school's response was ultimately pretty appropriate. Paying for the damages and community service is what I would have come up with too.

His extra-curriculars and grad privileges are "on hold", which bugs me on multiple levels, but I definitely agree about the damages and community service.

More to the point, I would be really proud of my DS for the way he responded. He made a mistake, he owned up to the damage he caused and he's willing to fix the mistake. It seems like he learned a good lesson from it. And he also learned a good parkour lesson about picking the right location for tricks, and for checking his target. I would have been angry if he had deliberately vandalized school property. This was an accident on par with sending a baseball through a neighbor's window. You fix what you broke, but you're not a bad person for breaking it.

Yes to all this. I'm really proud of the way he's handling it. I hope they don't pile on any more lectures, because they're going to start pissing him off soon, which seems really counterproductive. I think any "disciplinary" action that takes a repentant, apologetic person who is freely willing to make amends, and turns them into someone who is feeling unjustly persecuted, is really counterproductive...and I think that's where they're headed at this point.

Public high school is probably not an appropriate place for freerunning, and it sounds like your son knows this now. I think there's a lot of good lessons he's learning in this situation.

He's only got about 9-10 weeks left, and I doubt he'll do any more freerunning during that time - in fact, I'm sure of it. I'll just have to make sure he knows that he can't so much as jump the last couple stairs on the stairwell, either.

[insidevoice]

The kid was being a kid- testing his boundaries, and the school is going to punish him for.. being a kid?  I fail to see the correlation between this and some middle-schoolers drinking at a dance.  I tried to see the point there, but there is just no parallel.

In my dance and drama days, kids were doing stuff like this all the time- not as well- clearly, but we tried! Usually falling on our butts and embarrassing ourselves was the only real punishment.  Any damage done was something we would be responsible to fix. This is a kid with one foot out the door of the highschool already, what kind of a message does it send to the younger kids that they can toe the line for most of their HS career and be all around good kids, and be treated the same way someone who really gets in trouble all the time is treated?  Applying a one-size-fits-all approach doesn't work. 

I'm glad you managed to advocate for him so he is not suspended, but it's inane that anyone had to waste time with this to begin with.  It should have been a non-issue with the adult in charge simply letting him know that once he'd finished applying a couple band-aids they could start talking about the repair bill. 

[Storm Bride]

Oh - and to clarify (since I have a thing about leaving incorrect details hanging), ds1 didn't land on the floor. He landed on a cupboard, and it was the actual kitchen. I thought he'd walked out, but he apparently climbed back up to the platform (with the big hole in it) and then jumped down.