I think I've dug myself a hole...

[swd12422]

DS is 3, and generally good-natured and (for 3) a decent listener most of the time.

The problem, I think, is me. I am trying my best to be gentle with him, but I do yell. I don't want to, but I have always had very low patience and tend to be loud even when I'm not intending to yell. I'm working on it, but I'm not going to claim perfection.

Lately he has been really terrible at doing/stopping what we ask. I know part of it is still that lack of impulse control that nearly drove me insane during early toddlerhood, and part of it is his brain being too occupied by the details of whatever he's doing, and part is just boundary testing. But I'm not really sure how to handle this. I have always counted to three when asking him to do something, and then I just do it for him if he's still not listening. (I rarely make it past two.) This past week, he has not only NOT been responding positively to that, he simply ignores me and then states, "I don't want to." when I ask him if he heard me. Or he'll say, "No, it isn't." if I tell him he needs to stop doing xyz b/c it's dangerous, or not good public behavior or something.

Obviously, I'm not going to get into a shouting match, or a "yeah-huh"/"nuh-uhhhh" argument with him. When I was a kid, that would have gotten me a smack and sent to my room. Normally I disengage, but then he "wins" the battle. And frankly, I'm okay with him winning, but not when I'm asking him to wash the jelly off his hands before he climbs onto my great-aunt's antique couch.

How do you avoid escalating these situations where things are simply not negotiable? If I don't yell, or otherwise upset him, he doesn't listen. I had to carry him to the bathroom to wash, and even though I did it gently, he was upset and angry. Then when I explained to him that if he had listened the first time that wouldn't have happened, he tuned me out. (Believe me, I'm not into lecturing, but you can say, "I just bought cookies. What did I just say?" and he will not be able to tell you that you bought cookies. His selective hearing has become that fine-tuned.

[msmiranda]

I hope someone else has a magic bullet to offer you!  I have a child who is just like this, and it is tough.  He still responds to counting to three, though (if I do it -- not if DH does, because DH is more of a softie than I am, he knows I will follow through and DH often won't, which is tough to listen to because I want to step in!).  I often have to tell him that things are not negotiable, that we "have to do" x, that "it's time for" y, and so forth.  He complains and resists, but eventually he will acquiesce.  The not listening is maddening, isn't it?  Sometimes I have to ask a question 5 or 6 times and end up raising my voice some before I get an answer because he's so focused on what he's doing.  I explain how rude it is to ignore someone when they are asking you a question, but that has not resulted in any huge epiphanies yet on his part lol.  I also know what you mean about yelling.  I yell more than I wish I did, and DH and I are constantly working on it but always falling short of where we would like to be.  You are not alone.  Some kids are just challenging this way.  When it something truly non-negotiable, I think sometimes you can't really avoid escalating it, if by that you mean he will get upset if you physically take him to wash his hands so he doesn't get jelly on the antique couch.  Sometimes you just have to do what has to be done even if they don't like it, y'know?

[Just1More]

I would do two things:

Firstly, say it one time, in a normal (or quieter than normal) voice, and mean what you say.  If you say, "wash your hands."  Then say it one time, and make it happen.  He's making you say it over and over because you WILL say it over and over. So, don't.  I believe in being respectful to our kids, but that doesn't mean you should be a doormat.  He needs to be respectful to you, too.

Secondly, practice listening skills.  Say, I'm getting a cookie, do you want one?  ONE time, and then go do it.  If he doesn't, then he missed out.  There were only two cookies, you see.  I'd do stuff like this over and over.  I'll bet his listening ability improves dramatically.  Just stop playing his game.

[LynnS6]

Originally Posted by swd12422 

DS is 3, and generally good-natured and (for 3) a decent listener most of the time.

The problem, I think, is me. I am trying my best to be gentle with him, but I do yell. I don't want to, but I have always had very low patience and tend to be loud even when I'm not intending to yell. I'm working on it, but I'm not going to claim perfection.

Lately he has been really terrible at doing/stopping what we ask. I know part of it is still that lack of impulse control that nearly drove me insane during early toddlerhood, and part of it is his brain being too occupied by the details of whatever he's doing, and part is just boundary testing. But I'm not really sure how to handle this. I have always counted to three when asking him to do something, and then I just do it for him if he's still not listening. (I rarely make it past two.) This past week, he has not only NOT been responding positively to that, he simply ignores me and then states, "I don't want to." when I ask him if he heard me. Or he'll say, "No, it isn't." if I tell him he needs to stop doing xyz b/c it's dangerous, or not good public behavior or something.

A couple of thoughts: First, make sure you phrase things in terms of what he should do as often as you can. So, "don't yell" is harder to follow than "use your indoor voice". Or "sit down on the couch" rather than "don't stand" .If we're told what not to do, all we can think about is what we can't do ( don't look over your shoulder!). If we're told what to do, you at least have something new to think about (and argue about if you're three).

Second, I really like Anthony Wolfe's "waiting for the bus" technique for this. Tell him once and then wait as if you've got all the time in the world and you know eventually he'll do it. (He calls it waiting for the bus because you try to get into the mindset that you have when you are waiting for the bus -- no amount of ranting and railing will make it come faster). This works a lot of the time. Before you implement this, you need to make sure he's heard. It's easy to get out of that habit -- so practice going over, touching him gently, getting down to his level and telling him what you need. I find I yell most when I fail to get my rear off the couch! Then nothing else (fun/unfun) happens until he does what he needs to do.

Originally Posted by swd12422 Obviously, I'm not going to get into a shouting match, or a "yeah-huh"/"nuh-uhhhh" argument with him. When I was a kid, that would have gotten me a smack and sent to my room. Normally I disengage, but then he "wins" the battle. And frankly, I'm okay with him winning, but not when I'm asking him to wash the jelly off his hands before he climbs onto my great-aunt's antique couch.

If it's something 'intellectual' (such as he's telling you the sky is purple and you know it's not), my favorite line is "Oh, we have different ideas about that." With the jelly on the hands, try the waiting for the bus, and then blocking his access until he does it. If he doesn't do it in a reasonable amount of time, then I'm OK with helping him comply for something like this.

[swd12422]

Thanks for the replies. I do try to remember to say what I want him to do, rather than NOT do. But it creeps back in....

DH repeats himself even more than I do, and I wonder if that is making things worse. DS has always responded by the second time I say something, usually by the time I say, "Did you hear me?" after the first time. I have noticed that, over the months, DH has gone from his impatient, "That's one, that's two..." with no time in between for DS to react to just saying "Wash your hands" louder and louder as soon as he's met with any protest or hesitation on DS's part. We really need to stop this train we're on.  I do use the "waiting for the bus" technique when trying to get him dressed and ready, but when he has jelly all over himself and is heading for the furniture, I can't sit around and watch that.

It is definitely attention-seeking behavior, and I feel awful about that. I'm not sure I can physically and mentally give him the constant attention he seems to need in order to keep him out of trouble, and that' makes me feel terrible. Yesterday we had an AMAZING day together: park, lunch, quiet time, a quick stint at the shoe store (he loves DSW with the long aisles to run up and down), library, and home to make pizza. We didn't have a single shadow of the past few weeks til DH got home. (As soon as he walked in the door, DS was arguing and not listening. I could see the switch flip, so I simply asked him if that is how we behave with Daddy. No answer, but it stopped right then.) I know that we did so well together b/c I spent the entire day on him. I didn't try to clean up, do laundry, get "me" time, nothing. It was all about him, except the few minutes at the shoe store, and he didn't notice me not paying attention to him, b/c he had dozens of stools to climb on! I just don't know if I can sustain that every single day, all day, in order to help him succeed rather than setting him up to fail, so to speak.

[mamazee]

Waiting for the bus can be very effective. Also, there are lots of good ideas in How To Talk So Kids Will Listen. 3.5 and there a bouts is a really hard age because they're pushing for autonomy. It's a healthy drive, but it's painful to go through.

[LCBMAX]

subbing. this is my life right now too. 

I need to quit asking 3 times if he wants water. 

I'm going to implement more of the waiting for the bus thing, but I have a question (to LynnS6)  about what you do with the screaming miserable tantrum that I would get if I close the bathroom door to block his path out when he refuses to wash hands after pooping? That's where my waiting for the bus (sitting patiently on the side of the tub while he opens all the cabinet doors, flushes the toilet again, checks out the trashcan...) turns into a renegotiation at the kitchen sink, or offering a bowl of soapy water in the living room, or just anything to get his hands a little cleaner. I just don't feel good about blocking his path physically... is that just my discomfort and I need to mama-up and deal with it?

I will sometimes get a good result with this weird counting thing - "You need to get in your carseat now. I'll count to 5, and while I'm counting it's your turn to get in by yourself. After 5 it's my turn to help you get in." I think it's weird because it's so coercive, and obviously it's not really about doing it "by yourself" vs. "with help", it's about doing it NOW D***IT, CAUSE I'M LOSING MY MIND, but so far he still hears it as an autonomy thing and does it happily almost always. I welcome criticism of this technique because I feel so creepy about it myself.

Thanks for starting this, OP!

[Just1More]

Something I've landed on is that I want to respect my children and their feelings and choices, but it becomes more apparent to me the more I have that my children don't inherently respect ME and MY feelings and choices.  And, facts are, I have more information and experience than them. 

So, it comes down to me teaching them to live appropriately with ME, and also with others they may meet.

I don't like using manipulation to accomplish this.  I don't like being manipulated, and would be highly annoyed and insulted if someone didn't shoot straight with me.  So, I do with my kids.

So, speaking of attention seeking behavior...

Last night ds was really cuddly at bedtime and really, really badly didn't want to leave me.  We've been really busy, and are about to take a trip, so there's a lot of hustle and bustle, and he's feeling it a bit, I think.  I told him extra stories, and sang him extra songs, and Daddy loved on him extra all the way to his bed.  Well, he came out in search of another blanket.  No problem, we looked through all the blankets, but he just couldn't decide which one.  He finally picks two, and I tucked him in again.  (I have a million things to do now that all 4 are sleeping, but...I am very patient, like I've got not a care in the world.)

Five minutes, and he's out again...he needs another blanket, he says. 

I knelt down in front of him.  "You don't need another blanket, buddy.  You've got two, and it's hot in here.  I think you want more time with Mama and Daddy.  I think there's so much crazy around here right now, you'd like some more attention."  He whispered, "Yeah." 

I said, "You don't need to make stuff up.  Next time, just say so."  And we scooped him up and cuddled a bit, and then struck a deal.  One more book, and then off to bed to not get up again.  Mama's have work they need to do and we can't play during the day if we can't work at night.   So, we did, and he did, and that was that.

But, I'm not going to play a game all night up and down out of bed and trying to get more attention in a sneaky kind of way.  That's lying...and I won't let him do it...and I won't do it to him.

If you are going to make him wash his hands, just say so, and quit pretending that you are trying to compromise or whatever.  I'd be mad as a hornet to be tricked and trapped like that, and if screaming and stomping didn't work, I might resort to stalling and being annoying in retaliation.

BUT, if you truly want to be fair, then don't make him wash his hands.  You might say, "You SHOULD wash your hands."  "It's the right thing to do to wash you hands at someone's house so we don't ruin thier nice things."  Or, you could honestly say, "IF you have dirty hands and touch the couch, then you will have to work to replace the couch, and that will take a really long time and be no fun at all.  Your choice."  But you should only say THAT if you really meant it WAS his choice, and not if you were just trying to convince him.

As far as dangerous stuff, or other truly non negotiables, you either have to establish someone is in charge and gets to make the rules, or you have to avoid those situations entirely.  If you wanted to establish yourself in times of danger, but not others, you could say to you ds, "I think mamas and daddys should let their kids be a part of the family and make decisions, too.  I don't think it's right for parents to get to be the boss all the time.  But, I have a problem, sometimes we go places that you haven't been yet, and you don't know what might hurt you.  So, I have to keep you safe.  I would be so sad if something bad happened to you.  Let's make a deal, I'll let you make your own choices as much as I can, and you trust me to keep you safe.  Okay?  We have to both trust each other, though.  You have to trust me to keep you safe, and I have to trust you to listen when I need you to." 

Personally, I think that's all too much.  Good in theory, but, like I said, the more I have, the more I realize that somebody has to be in charge.  And, that's me.  I shoot straight with them, and they do with me.  And mostly, they get what they want because I can trust them to be honest, and they can trust me to listen.

Nobody can truly communicate with manipulation.

[D_McG]

I give them a time limit and then do it. Even if they're flipping out. It only takes a couple of episodes like that before they realize I'm serious and become more cooperative in general. For me anyway things like 'waiting for the bus' just give the whole thing too much emphasis (I'm thinking of the hand washing example). But honestly I feel like I have a lot more non-negotiable things than others in this forum. Or a lot less patience, or something. Life for us just got a lot easier when I made more things routine and fewer things negotiable.