Bob books and memorization

[RollerCoasterMama]

I'm not 100% where to post this question...we don't really homeschool due to my schedule, but DS asked me to teach him to read and so I am.   :) 

Anyway, the question is about Bob books.  He loves them.  He also has a freaky memory.  (My dad has a photographic memory...I didn't inherit it that strongly, but DS seems to have a decent chunk of it!)  So after once through pretty much any book...he's got in memorized.  And he's seriously coasting through his Bob books using that as a crutch. 

Pros:

His sight words are great--and if he learns a word in one book, he can find it in the next, or if I write out sentences for us to read.  He's gradually learning to look beyond just the first letter of a word.  He does know why words say what they do if I ask him to break it apart.  (We're only on book 10 of the first set, so it's still mostly 3-letter words.)  He's excited and interested...and REALLY wants to read that last book in the first set since he saw the lion.  :)  He knows letter sounds.  He can piece a word together if given the sounds. 

Cons:

He's definitely relying on his memory of the story.  He's always memorized story books, and this is no different.  He's usually not inclined to sound out words on his own if it's not something simple (sat vs sit or had vs has).  He has only tackled a new word on his own once -- and did great!  He doesn't like it when I ask him words embedded in another story book...he'd rather I just read so he can enjoy the story.

So experienced mama-teachers...any BTDT advice?  Just keep plugging through the books?  (I only add a new one when he's breezing through the most recent.  Though recently, he's wanted to stretch a little and nudged us into the next couple of books before I thought he was ready, but he's holding his own with them.)  Would you go to set 2 once he's mastered set 1 even if a lot of the mastery is relying heavilly on memory?  Does something just click at a certain point?

I KNOW he could have sight mastery of most of the words he needs to get by, but he also needs the phonics skills to cope with unfamiliar words, so I'm trying to embed that in what we're doing. 

DS is a young four.  I haven't even tried to teach him to read before the past month.  He had no interest and just didn't seem to care.  Suddenly he wanted to, so I went with it and he jumped right in and did great.

I learned with a McGuffy reader at 3 or 4 yrs old and I remember the language explosion when I was sounding out everything.  He doesn't seem that interested in the McGuffy reader, but loves the Bob books and when I write out silly sentences. 

I just want to keep things fun.  Right now, Bob books are part of our bedtime routine.  (I wonder sometimes if it's too late in the day to do them.) 

Ok...that's my novel!  :)  Oh, I don't know if it matters, but I WOHM full time and DS is in Montessori preschool.  As much as I'd like to teach him full time, it's not an option for me.  His current preschool doesn't think he's ready for Bob books and won't do them with him at school ...but he's switching to a new one in a couple of months, and they're big fans of the series and will pick up whereever we are, so we'll be reinforcing in both places.

[pigpokey]

I'd say ... one ... the BOB books aren't harming him, and he may have a lightbulb moment on the phonics later.  And maybe he doesn't really want to learn to read unfamiliar words, maybe he just wants to do his version of reading, and his strategy is pleasing him.  So what's the rush.

I myself used Teach Your Child to Read in 100 Easy Lessons at that age with my son, minus the writing and comprehension exercises and some of the script.  It was a great basis and proceeded smoothly for both my children.  I would think we spent 10-15 minutes a day and sometimes we repeated a lesson 2 or 3 times.

[Dar]

My daughter basically taught herself to read in the way you describe. For a long time she would want me to read books one time, and then she could read them herself. Through doing that enough times she gained a pretty big sight word vocabulary, which she then used to start phonetically unwrapping words she didn't know. It's backwards from the way kids are generally taught in schools these days but it's the way a lot of unschooled kids who aren't explicitly taught to read seem to learn...

[RollerCoasterMama]

Thank you both.  I had looked at some of the learn to read programs, and at this age, when I'd really rather avoid academics at home since he is already in preschool and our time together is limited in the evenings...I just didn't feel like going that route.  But he has been nagging me about reading for a couple of months, so I finally started just by writing out AT sentences when we were coloring.  He gobbled them up, so I picked up some Bob books and he zoomed right through the first three until we hit the point where his skills met the level of the books. 

It's nice to hear other kids reading a bit backwards.  I guess as long as he knows the phonics, it's not so bad to use sight reading.  That's what the rest of us do most of the time anyway.  :) 

I don't feel like we're under any schedule at all.  No one said he had to read early.  And if he hadn't been butting heads with teachers at the school we're leaving soon, I wouldn't have even gone there.  But his power struggles at school were giving him a real distaste for school, so it seemed like listening to his wishes and showing him what he wanted to learn (and they were refusing) was one way to keep him excited about learning new things.  Four seemed too young to be that burned out on school already!!  And it did the trick for now.  So in that way, his books are a success. 

I guess we'll just keep plugging through them and see where we end up.

[heatherdeg]

I actually used the Bob books to break exactly what you're describing.  Because unless he's being given help or someone telling him the words, then really--he must be phonetically figuring it out, no?

Mine started just around 3yo and because he was flagged for the autism spectrum, I was anxious to break the CONSTANT "memorize, spit out" that he did all. the. time.

It was (for us) the best thing I ever did.  The result is that he started using his brain to figure things out instead of relying solely on that which he memorized.  So I don't regret it.

I'm not big on sight reading, anyway.  I have too many friends working with kids who were taught that as the primary method of reading (during that "this is the hot new thing" movement in education) who have nothing good to say about it as the main method of reading.  I see your point that it feels like what we do now; but it's not the same.  Just because you have grown to recognize these words as an adult in a way that feels like sight reading, it doesn't mean that's what we're doing.  There's a difference in the way you have learned it and the way you used your brain to get to this point.

[RollerCoasterMama]

Heather, I am a firm believer in phonics. I think they're key in so many ways! I have been asking him to disect words for me if he breezes through a page too quickly. I did it even more tonight and he does fine. Plus I saw him sound out a word on his own again...I think we're getting further along than I was thinking. He just goes so quickly from thinking about it to sight word that it's disconcerting sometimes. And once he learns a word, he knows it in any context.

Maybe it's that he's not sounding things out slowly...it seems less like what a beginning reader "should" sound like.

I appreciate the feedback here...I'm definitely going to keep it up and see how it goes.

He's definitely having fun and is very proud of himself.

[eclipse]

My oldest son pretty much taught himself to read with BOB books doing exactly what you described. He was internalizing the phonics without ever going through the sounding out out loud phase that so many kids go through. And if he figured out a small (cvc) word, and then saw that "chunk" in a bigger word, he would intuitively know how to pronounce it. This was really helpful for him with complicated phonetic combos that are usually considered sight words. For example, if he learned the "sight word" might, and then saw that -ight in another word (like sight), he would instantly know how to say it. He was a very young reader and was just very intuitive about it. My younger son, however, knows a ton of cvc and sight words, but doesn't seem to be getting the phonetic side. I'm not really sure what to do about that, since he's been memorizing words since he was wee - but it makes it hard for him to figure out new words in a way that it was never hard for his older brother or his sister (who was also a young reader, but learned in a more straight forward phonetic style).

[AAK]

Since he is in preschool still, I wouldn't worry too much about it since you said that he can piece a word together with sounds.  Before he moved on to a new book though, I would make a word list from the latest book.  Have him read the list to you.  (At this point I wouldn't worry about whether he was reading them by sight or not; though if he stumbled on one, I would encourage him to try sounding it out).  If it gets really concerning for you, create some non-sense word lists.  That requires "sounding out".  Also, my preschooler loves to use the tiles from my older children's spelling program.  She will make a cvc word (real or not) and I help her sound it out.  Then, I will change a tile and she tells me how I "changed" the word.  We use all about spelling.  The vowels are a different color than the consonants and she (for now) knows to put one in the middle.  

Good luck!

Amy

[RollerCoasterMama]

Originally Posted by AAK 

Since he is in preschool still, I wouldn't worry too much about it since you said that he can piece a word together with sounds.  Before he moved on to a new book though, I would make a word list from the latest book.  Have him read the list to you.  (At this point I wouldn't worry about whether he was reading them by sight or not; though if he stumbled on one, I would encourage him to try sounding it out).  If it gets really concerning for you, create some non-sense word lists.  That requires "sounding out".  Also, my preschooler loves to use the tiles from my older children's spelling program.  She will make a cvc word (real or not) and I help her sound it out.  Then, I will change a tile and she tells me how I "changed" the word.  We use all about spelling.  The vowels are a different color than the consonants and she (for now) knows to put one in the middle.  

Good luck!

Amy

Ooh!  Fab idea on the word list!  I hadn't thought of that.  I'd been putting similar words into my own sentences and he zips right through them.  But he might get a kick out of a list of words if we keep it like a game.  And I should probably keep reminding myself that we've only been at this for less than a month.  Every day he gets more confident.  Just a week ago, he was totally intimidated by two lines of text on a page even though he knew the words. 

I spent a little more time asking him to break down words last night.  And in the car, we were talking about what letters make what sounds -- going backwards from what he usually does in school.  He's engaged and excited...that's all I really wanted after all of the drama at preschool this winter!  I'm just biding my time until he starts at the new school in a couple of months!

He spotted the other sets of Bob books on the back, so he's all excited about them.  (Two and three are hiding in the cupboard right now.) 

He brought his books to school today, so the teachers might let him try reading again.  We'll see how that goes.  He dearly wants to read with the other kids.  I really don't know why they have been discouraging it.  Seems like they want his handwriting to be to a certain point before reading.  You know...because reading and writing must be mastered at the same time!  (New school in 8 weeks and counting!!!)

[heatherdeg]

Yeah--he's just grasping it easily and you're likely used to seeing kids struggle to sound it out.  I had the same mental image.  :)

And I came back to post that a good test of his phonics would be to have him read you Dr. Suess books aloud.  There are a TON of nonsense words in them that he HAS to sound out--he can't recognize them by sight because they're not "real"/common words.  I detest Dr. Suess, personally; but when I needed to really push the phonics learning with mine, I was grateful that at birth--my brother gave my son a full set of them (like 20 or 25 of them).  :D

I cannot even believe they are pushing a child that young on handwriting.  I'm wondering if they're doing that in lieu of the reading because he already has the reading?  Ridiculous.

[RollerCoasterMama]

Originally Posted by heatherdeg 

Yeah--he's just grasping it easily and you're likely used to seeing kids struggle to sound it out.  I had the same mental image.  :)

And I came back to post that a good test of his phonics would be to have him read you Dr. Suess books aloud.  There are a TON of nonsense words in them that he HAS to sound out--he can't recognize them by sight because they're not "real"/common words.  I detest Dr. Suess, personally; but when I needed to really push the phonics learning with mine, I was grateful that at birth--my brother gave my son a full set of them (like 20 or 25 of them).  :D

I cannot even believe they are pushing a child that young on handwriting.  I'm wondering if they're doing that in lieu of the reading because he already has the reading?  Ridiculous.

We've got a handful of Dr. Suess books.  I'll keep that in mind when he's done a little more.

The handwriting is dumb.  It's supposed to be a Montessori thing, but they're totally not doing it in a Montessori way.  That was at the core of our big drama this winter...they were requiring he do two tracing sheets a day.  And at his age (3 and newly 4 yrs old), the tracing sheets are double sided rows and rows of numbers and letters.  I'd hate that too!!!!  So, adding that to the growing list of things that didn't sit right...we started the hunt for a new school.  I so wish I could just teach him at home, but the best I'm going to manage as a single mom is to supplement evenings and weekends if there's something he shows interest in.  The reading was one of those things.  And it restored his interest in learning after he got so mad at his teachers.  They've got a truce at school right now that will get us through the next couple of weeks. 

Never thought I'd be dealing with this mess at barely 4 yrs old!! 

Thanks for all the input!  I figured this would be the forum with the most BTDT experience in this area!  I appreciate you letting me jump in!
 

[AAK]

One more thing.  I found that the Bob books made a pretty big leap between sets 2 and 3 (or was it 3 & 4).  We have really liked the "I See Sam" books because they are all decodable and the progression is slow.  The first few books only use a few words--but since the stories are different, it discourages memorization.  You can get them free somewhere, but my dd likes the "books" in a row on the shelf.  So, here is the link to the least expensive place (that I have found) to buy them. 

http://www.3rsplus.com/

Amy

[RollerCoasterMama]

Ok...after all that...he's downstairs right now carefully sounding out a more challenging sentence I wrote when we were coloring earlier. He knows what it says, but I can hear him breaking apart the words. Totally makes sense...every other skill, he prefers to practice in private then show people once it's mastered. Little booger!!

[AAK]

Originally Posted by RollerCoasterMama 

Ok...after all that...he's downstairs right now carefully sounding out a more challenging sentence I wrote when we were coloring earlier. He knows what it says, but I can hear him breaking apart the words. Totally makes sense...every other skill, he prefers to practice in private then show people once it's mastered. Little booger!!

Awesome!

[luv my 2 sweeties]

Originally Posted by RollerCoasterMama 

Ok...after all that...he's downstairs right now carefully sounding out a more challenging sentence I wrote when we were coloring earlier. He knows what it says, but I can hear him breaking apart the words. Totally makes sense...every other skill, he prefers to practice in private then show people once it's mastered. Little booger!!

This sounds so exactly like my dd.  She always wanted to practice in private too.  (I didn't know she was practicing writing her name until she came to me and showed me her whole 7 letter name written out!)  She also did lots of memorizing of books before she took the leap into "real" reading.  She mostly taught herself to read -- I only answered her questions, read to her a lot, and gave little tips, such as "sh" always sounds like "shh".  By 4 1/2, she could read a very easy reader book that she had never seen before, and by 5 1/2 she was reading chapter books.  (Magic Tree House, etc.)  Looks like your ds is on the same path!  It's a fun one to watch them travel. 

Memorization of words and even whole books is a key pre-reading skill, so definetely don't be worried about it.  Interestingly, my older ds, who has struggled mightily with reading, never did that much at all.  My younger ds (age 3) is starting to do it, and I'm glad!  Hopefully reading will be easier for him than it has been for his brother.
 

[milkybean]

Originally Posted by luv my 2 sweeties 

Memorization of words and even whole books is a key pre-reading skill, so definetely don't be worried about it.  Interestingly, my older ds, who has struggled mightily with reading, never did that much at all.  My younger ds (age 3) is starting to do it, and I'm glad!  Hopefully reading will be easier for him than it has been for his brother.

Absolutely!  Memorizing is part and parcel of reading, it IS reading for that age (or a bit younger, or somewhat older).  It's OK.

Some kids just don't work with phonics.  I never did. I taught myself to read way too young (the baby-reading ads make me shudder, because there is just no point for a baby, or 2 year old like I was, to be reading...and talk about having to child proof your house once they are reading!!!!!), did sight-reading, and when we did phonics in 1st or 2nd grade it did nothing but confuse me.  Wait, I have to relearn what I memorized?  Why? 

So you don't have to learn phonics before you learn sight-words, it just works however it works for each kid, IMO.