Looking for Christian input on baptism, and whether it is neccesary for salvation - Page 2

[obscureepiphany]

dp

[Arduinna]

Originally Posted by love4bob 

Well I do not believe in the saved mentality or salvation. My church(Roman Catholic) does not teach that baptism is needed for salvation. Baptism forgives us of our sins and brings us the blessings of the Holy Spirit. It makes us more pure and welcomes us into the Church. God and Heaven is open to all people of all faiths. Sins will effect our afterlife, but for the most part, all people will end up in Heaven eventually.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c1a1.htm

VI. THE NECESSITY OF BAPTISM

1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.⁶⁰ He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.⁶¹ Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.⁶² The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are "reborn of water and the Spirit." God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.

1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.

1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."⁶³ Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"⁶⁴ allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

and regarding hell

1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."⁶¹⁷ The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

[love4bob]

Originally Posted by Arduinna 

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c1a1.htm

VI. THE NECESSITY OF BAPTISM

1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.⁶⁰ He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.⁶¹ Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.⁶² The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are "reborn of water and the Spirit." God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.

1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.

1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."⁶³ Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"⁶⁴ allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

and regarding hell

1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."⁶¹⁷ The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

Yes, I see it does say it is needed for those Christians who know they need it. I was referencing that it is not the only way to be saved for all humans. It also says that God is not bound by his own sacraments meaning he can save whomever he wants, and all that do not know of the Lord or baptisim, or are actively seeking God(ie other religions and religious beliefs). That is what I was taught it to mean while in RCIA.

And about the Hell, yes, some people do go to Hell for mortal sins which are of a specific difference from venial sins which can be shed in Pugatory.
Edited by love4bob - 4/15/11 at 7:50pm

[Purple Sage]

Originally Posted by Mammajamma 

I totally agree~ good use of Scripture...also I might add that those who require baptism for salvation are requiring a " work" to accomplish what Christ already finished on the cross. I would say that it is erroneous and is contrary to Scripture to state that God requires a work when Ephesians 2:8-9 states " For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast." Anyway, like I said~ I agree with you, and believe you stated it well!

James 2:17 says "Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead." 

James 2:24 says "You see then that a man is justified by works and not by faith only."  (NKJV)

What does faith look like that does not show works?  Why would Jesus tell us to be baptized if it didn't matter and we don't really need to do it?  Why would he tell us to do anything at all?  I understand that it is God's grace which saves us with the cooperation of our faith, but to completely eliminate the connection between a living faith and the actions that are inseparable from that faith is, imo, not at all helpful or even possible. 

Yes, God can save whomever he wants with or without baptism.  But anyone can look at a Bible with a concordance and read all the passages on baptism and see that it is plainly written that we are told by Jesus Himself to be baptized, and nowhere does it say that it's just a nice thing to do but is completely optional for believers who have the means to do it.  In Luke 7:30 it says that the Pharisees had "rejected the will of God" by not being baptized by John.  What does that say about anyone who willingly rejects the baptism that Christ has commanded of us?  If He told us to do it, then He must have good reason for it.  I think we should have faith that He knows what He's talking about and do what He says.

[les_oiseau]

Originally Posted by Purple Sage 

James 2:17 says "Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead." 

James 2:24 says "You see then that a man is justified by works and not by faith only."  (NKJV)

I think this is talking about living out your faith, which would include applying the Word to your life and becoming more like Christ. Of course baptism is something we are supposed to do as followers of Christ, but does it have any active part in salvation. If one is truly saved then they will apply the Word of God to their lives... that's what I have understood to this point this scripture to mean.

I don't have the reference right now to where the verse is but one that comes to mind is something like ;  ... share the good news and make disciples; baptizing them and teaching them to live according to all my teachings.

So baptism would be on the same level as living according to all His teachings, which would be imposible for all to follow correctly all the time, hence our obvious need for grace.             ?

This is my understanding. Which, obviously I am wondering whether it is correct.

A lot to think about. Thank you for all the responses and scripture. Look forward to studying, thinking, reading more.

[Mammajamma]

Purple sage, when quoting Scripture it is best to stay within the context of the passage. That passage is comparable to this, I have a car and it has a battery ~ just cause the battery has died ( and is not working or active)  does not mean that it doesn't exist... the battery is still there. Just like faith. Just because a believer's faith is not being acted out or visible to the outside world does not mean that it does not exist. Many people get confused on this passage and similar ones. Here is a site that might clarify it for you. I believe the Bible is without error and does not contradict itself, thus I believe the book of James is in complete harmony with Paul in Ephesians ( and elsewhere) concerning what it takes to receive salvation.

http://www.clarityministries.org/media/pdfs/faith_without_works.pdf

and for other interesting and clarifying reading...

http://www.clarityministries.org/trumpet/

Also, just as a matter of Biblical record~ and to keep this post on topic~ Abraham was justified by faith alone and was not baptized. I believe he went to heaven~ as he was a " Friend of God" I am pretty sure God didn't send His friend to fry! ( Romans 4:1-25 with the key verse being 3.

On another note ~ I really do not recall any space in Scripture ( unless it is somehow taken out of context and words are twisted ) where Jesus stated that one must be baptized to attain salvation.

Edited by Mammajamma - 4/16/11 at 6:12pm

[Purple Sage]

Thanks, I appreciate the gesture, but I'm already aware of this particular Protestant interpretation of these scriptures, and I do not think they are completely correct for a number of reasons which would be OT to get into on this thread. I'm going to bow out now because it does appear that the OP is looking for answers more in line with Protestant tradition.

[les_oiseau]

Originally Posted by Purple Sage 

James 2:17 says "Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead." 

James 2:24 says "You see then that a man is justified by works and not by faith only."  (NKJV)

What does faith look like that does not show works?  Why would Jesus tell us to be baptized if it didn't matter and we don't really need to do it?  Why would he tell us to do anything at all?  I understand that it is God's grace which saves us with the cooperation of our faith, but to completely eliminate the connection between a living faith and the actions that are inseparable from that faith is, imo, not at all helpful or even possible. 

Yes, God can save whomever he wants with or without baptism.  But anyone can look at a Bible with a concordance and read all the passages on baptism and see that it is plainly written that we are told by Jesus Himself to be baptized, and nowhere does it say that it's just a nice thing to do but is completely optional for believers who have the means to do it.  In Luke 7:30 it says that the Pharisees had "rejected the will of God" by not being baptized by John.  What does that say about anyone who willingly rejects the baptism that Christ has commanded of us?  If He told us to do it, then He must have good reason for it.  I think we should have faith that He knows what He's talking about and do what He says.

I don't question the things God directs me to do. If He tells me to give up this or change that, I don't ask questions. It is IMO ridiculous to question the Word of God or ask "why"? etc. But if someone tells me I have to give up A or change B in order to be saved, I am going to have some questions. It's not an either it's required for salvation or it's simply a nice thing to do. There could be another purpose, similar to communion?

I really don't mean to ask the question and then exclude a group of Christians, I am just confused. (see below).  I am taking this very seriously..... if this is something I have overlooked in my beliefs then I really feel like embracing this would be make a drastic change in the way I see God and read the scriptures. I'm sorry if it seems like I'm questioning your believes, but really I am, just as much as I am questioning my own believes.

Originally Posted by Purple Sage 

Thanks, I appreciate the gesture, but I'm already aware of this particular Protestant interpretation of these scriptures, and I do not think they are completely correct for a number of reasons which would be OT to get into on this thread. I'm going to bow out now because it does appear that the OP is looking for answers more in line with Protestant tradition.

In all fairness, I am looking to find what the Bible really says about it. It seems to me like there can really be a case made either way. Up to this point my understanding on the subject has been I guess Protestant, and now I'm wondering if that's right.  Is there a link you have that would give some detail information on why your church (is it orthodox?) feels this way about baptism?

[yummus]

I haven't read all the posts but I wanted to say that I was led to baptism. I was not baptized as a child and God placed it on my heart to be baptized... whether it's required or not I don't know, it was for me but in a personal way. 

[Purple Sage]

Originally Posted by les_oiseau 

I don't question the things God directs me to do. If He tells me to give up this or change that, I don't ask questions. It is IMO ridiculous to question the Word of God or ask "why"? etc. But if someone tells me I have to give up A or change B in order to be saved, I am going to have some questions. It's not an either it's required for salvation or it's simply a nice thing to do. There could be another purpose, similar to communion?

I really don't mean to ask the question and then exclude a group of Christians, I am just confused. (see below).  I am taking this very seriously..... if this is something I have overlooked in my beliefs then I really feel like embracing this would be make a drastic change in the way I see God and read the scriptures. I'm sorry if it seems like I'm questioning your believes, but really I am, just as much as I am questioning my own believes.

In all fairness, I am looking to find what the Bible really says about it. It seems to me like there can really be a case made either way. Up to this point my understanding on the subject has been I guess Protestant, and now I'm wondering if that's right.  Is there a link you have that would give some detail information on why your church (is it orthodox?) feels this way about baptism?

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to sound dismissive or anything.  I'll do my best to explain where I'm coming from, but I'm only a catechumen in the Orthodox Church so I'm not the best spokesperson.    Lilyka posted a link to this article on Baptism upthread that is very helpful.

Now, these are just my personal thoughts on the subject...(and obviously, others disagree)

First, it isn't really as simple as just finding out what the Bible says about it - and that's because, as you can see, people have different interpretations of what the Bible says.  I can support the Orthodox position on baptism with scripture (read the article linked above and see the scriptural references throughout), but that doesn't mean that Mammajamma's church is going to agree. (Just using her as an example because she gave the links which tell us what that church believes and why.) And that's because both of our churches rely on their own tradition to interpret the scripture.  Well, actually, Mammjamma's church relies on their tradition to interpret the Bible, while the Bible is part of the Orthodox Church's tradition, if that makes sense. 

Why I believe the Orthodox Church's position on baptism over any other is because the Orthodox have held the same beliefs about baptism since the very beginning (approximately 2000 years), and that can be seen through study of the history and life of the Church, of which the Bible is a part.  Nothing has changed - Christians from the start have always believed that baptism cleanses us of our sins and mystically unites us to Christ through His death and resurrection.  It is not just symbolic.  The belief that it is only symbolic, or only a public declaration of faith, is an innovation, and a fairly recent one at that.

Second, no one on this thread, I don't think, has said that God can't choose to save anyone He wants with or without baptism.  But that doesn't mean that it isn't required of those of us who are able and aware of His command to do it.  There's a difference.  I'll use myself as an example - I'm not baptized yet, but if I were to die today I have hope that God will have mercy on me and not hold it against me that I haven't been baptized yet.  I have every intention of being baptized when my priest decides that it's the right time.  Now, if I decided it didn't really matter if I ever got baptized and felt that I held the correct beliefs (faith alone) and that's all that counts, then that would be a different story.  Then my faith that Jesus meant what He said in John chapter 3 would be meaningless, dead...that's how I feel about it, anyway.  In other words, I have faith in Christ so therefore I will get baptized.....not, 'I have faith in Christ so therefore I do not need to get baptized.'  Big difference.

Regarding "works" - what Paul is saying about not being saved by works is that works that are done for the wrong reasons will not save you.  Following the commandments for your own selfish reasons will not merit salvation.  He is not saying that the works which are naturally and inseparably tied to faith in God are unnecessary.  Separating faith and works in that way is another fairly recent - and IMO dangerous - innovation.

[lilyka]

Obscureepiphany's post pretty much sums up the Orthodox position.  

You also have to keep in mind the Orthodox have a very different view of what Salvation is, how one receives the gift of salvation and why one needs it, than most protestant denominations do. Salvation is more of a process for us rather than a moment in time.  Christ saved us all when he died on the cross.  We are continuously working out our salvation by participating with Him in becoming holy, and we will be saved at the final judgment if he so decides.  He can save whomever he wants and we beg for His mercy at all times for all people, but in the mean time we need to live like we believe Him and participate in our own journey towards holiness that we might please Him.  Baptism is for the remission of sins.  It is hard to be Holy without remission of sins.  We do  not believe it is merely a symbol or outward sign or public declaration, right of passage or photo op.  It is a Holy mystical, sacrament, instituted and blessed and sanctified by God himself where he imparts his grace to us to help us on our journey.  YAY!!!  

But asking an Orthodox Christian if someone must be baptized to be saved begs the question "what is salvation".
 

Originally Posted by obscureepiphany 

I've noticed that, although the original poster asked for scripture, no one has cited any. OP, you are quite correct that, before one is baptized, one should have clarity on the purpose of baptism. The Bible gives us that purpose: the remission of sins (Acts 2:38).  I would ask you to seriously consider the following:

1) Can one be saved without partaking of the benefits of Christ's death? "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?" Romans 6:3

2) Can one be saved without being spiritually circumcised? "In [Christ] also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;" (Colossians 2:11-13)

3) Can one be saved without the remission of sins? "Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2:37-38). Baptism is not because sins have already been remitted: "For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins." (Matthew 26:28), but in order to have sins remitted

4) Can one be saved without putting on Christ? "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ." (Galatians 3:27).

5) Can one be saved without being in the body of Christ?"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit." (I Corinthians 12:13) The body is the church (Colossians 1:18), to which the Lord adds those who are being saved (Acts 2:47). How is one added? (Acts 2:41)

6) Can one be saved without having his sins washed away? "And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord." (Acts 22:16)

7) Can one be saved without having a new life in Christ? "Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life." (Romans 6:4). According to this verse, how can one be a Christian before they are baptized and then still be a Christian after baptism? If one has a new life after baptism, and they were a Christian before baptism, then the Christian life is the old life! One must be born of water as well as spirit in order to be a Christian (John 3:3-5).

8) Can one be saved who cannot wear the name of Christ? "Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?"
(1 Corinthians 1:12-13). Paul here points out that in order to where someone's name on a religious sense: a) the person must have been crucified for you, and b) the person must have authorized your baptism.

9) Can one be saved without being saved? "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." (Mark 16:16). There are two statements here. One that tells us what to do to be saved, and one that tells us what to fail to do to be condemned. If one wants to be condemned, all they must do is fail to believe. If one wants to be saved, he must look at the first statement. (See also I Peter 3:20, 21)

Offered in Christian Love,

Elizabeth

Here are some links on the Orthodox view of Salvation:

http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/inq_salvation.aspx

http://fatherstephen.wordpress.com/2008/05/21/the-orthodox-church-and-personal-salvation/

Two GREAT videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WosgwLekgn8

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=16a_1285963583

Links about baptism:

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Baptism

http://www.saintbarbara.org/faith/sacraments/baptism/baptism.cfm

http://www.goarch.org/chapel/liturgical_texts/baptism  This is the actual service and prayers that accompany Baptism.

this is long.  I didn't read it all but looks meaty.  http://www.orthodox.net/articles/orthodox-baptism-explanation.html

[Purple Sage]

Originally Posted by lilyka 

Obscureepiphany's post pretty much sums up the Orthodox position.  

You also have to keep in mind the Orthodox have a very different view of what Salvation is, how one receives the gift of salvation and why one needs it, than most protestant denominations do. Salvation is more of a process for us rather than a moment in time.  Christ saved us all when he died on the cross.  We are continuously working out our salvation by participating with Him in becoming holy, and we will be saved at the final judgment if he so decides.  He can save whomever he wants and we beg for His mercy at all times for all people, but in the mean time we need to live like we believe Him and participate in our own journey towards holiness that we might please Him.  Baptism is for the remission of sins.  It is hard to be Holy without remission of sins.  We do  not believe it is merely a symbol or outward sign or public declaration, right of passage or photo op.  It is a Holy mystical, sacrament, instituted and blessed and sanctified by God himself where he imparts his grace to us to help us on our journey.  YAY!!!  

Yes, YAY to that!  Thanks for adding this because I couldn't figure out how to approach the whole 'what does it mean to be saved' thing.  

[mamabadger]

Originally Posted by Purple Sage 

(...)

Second, no one on this thread, I don't think, has said that God can't choose to save anyone He wants with or without baptism.  But that doesn't mean that it isn't required of those of us who are able and aware of His command to do it.  There's a difference.  I'll use myself as an example - I'm not baptized yet, but if I were to die today I have hope that God will have mercy on me and not hold it against me that I haven't been baptized yet.  I have every intention of being baptized when my priest decides that it's the right time.  Now, if I decided it didn't really matter if I ever got baptized and felt that I held the correct beliefs (faith alone) and that's all that counts, then that would be a different story.  Then my faith that Jesus meant what He said in John chapter 3 would be meaningless, dead...that's how I feel about it, anyway.  In other words, I have faith in Christ so therefore I will get baptized.....not, 'I have faith in Christ so therefore I do not need to get baptized.'  Big difference.

Exactly - God can and does save anyone He wants to, and is not limited by baptism or non-baptism; but that does not change our duty to be baptized if we are able.

A problem I often run into in talking with Protestants is the "necessary" issue. If I understand correctly, a big part of Protestant history involved getting rid of many excessive or worldly things which had developed in the RC church. The idea that cutting out "unnecessary" rituals, customs, or displays is purifying seems to be part of the Protestant world view, if I am interpreting right. Protestant friends have asked if I consider it necessary to have icons, incense, various church rituals, etc. in order to be saved. From the Orthodox perspective, it is simply the wrong question. Nothing is necessary for me to be saved except God's will that I be saved. In fact, that is the only thing that really counts. From our Church's history, we know of people who have been saved without baptism, without having read or heard the Bible, without ever entering a church, without really knowing who God or Christ is, let alone without receiving any of the other Sacraments or blessings of the Church. Theoretically, that would mean everything the Church has to offer is unnecessary and should be eliminated, including the Bible and baptism itself.

We tend to look at it from the other direction. We are trying to find out way to Heaven, and that can be a struggle. Discarding sacraments, etc. because we might be able to manage without them is like the climber trying to scale Everest without resorting to oxygen. The only reason to attempt it would be so he can brag that he managed the climb without artificial assistance. Our "climb" is far more serious, and we cannot afford to take risks. We will accept anything that might give us a better chance of reaching our goal. Oxygen? Sure. Tent, blankets, space heater and energy bars? We'll take them all. We also gladly accept the Sherpa guide, and if necessary the emergency helicopter ride back down the mountain. That is how we see things like the Sacraments: not "is this really necessary?" but "if it can help me reach salvation, hand it over, along with anything else you got!" 

[love4bob]

Originally Posted by mamabadger 

Exactly - God can and does save anyone He wants to, and is not limited by baptism or non-baptism; but that does not change our duty to be baptized if we are able.

A problem I often run into in talking with Protestants is the "necessary" issue. If I understand correctly, a big part of Protestant history involved getting rid of many excessive or worldly things which had developed in the RC church. The idea that cutting out "unnecessary" rituals, customs, or displays is purifying seems to be part of the Protestant world view, if I am interpreting right. Protestant friends have asked if I consider it necessary to have icons, incense, various church rituals, etc. in order to be saved. From the Orthodox perspective, it is simply the wrong question. Nothing is necessary for me to be saved except God's will that I be saved. In fact, that is the only thing that really counts. From our Church's history, we know of people who have been saved without baptism, without having read or heard the Bible, without ever entering a church, without really knowing who God or Christ is, let alone without receiving any of the other Sacraments or blessings of the Church. Theoretically, that would mean everything the Church has to offer is unnecessary and should be eliminated, including the Bible and baptism itself.

We tend to look at it from the other direction. We are trying to find out way to Heaven, and that can be a struggle. Discarding sacraments, etc. because we might be able to manage without them is like the climber trying to scale Everest without resorting to oxygen. The only reason to attempt it would be so he can brag that he managed the climb without artificial assistance. Our "climb" is far more serious, and we cannot afford to take risks. We will accept anything that might give us a better chance of reaching our goal. Oxygen? Sure. Tent, blankets, space heater and energy bars? We'll take them all. We also gladly accept the Sherpa guide, and if necessary the emergency helicopter ride back down the mountain. That is how we see things like the Sacraments: not "is this really necessary?" but "if it can help me reach salvation, hand it over, along with anything else you got!" 

You said that perfectly, that is exactly how I feel as well. I have many Protestant friends(I am actually the only Catholic), and none of them understand why I am and some dislike the Catholic church because of all of it's "extras" that they don't see as necessary. I am not Orthodox, I am Roman Catholic, but the two are similar in many things. All of the rituals ect. might not be needed, but they are far older than any other Christian tradition out there(and the church was actually started by Paul), so I put a lot of merit in that, and as you said every bit helps.

[lilyka]

Brilliantly said!  
 

Originally Posted by mamabadger 

Exactly - God can and does save anyone He wants to, and is not limited by baptism or non-baptism; but that does not change our duty to be baptized if we are able.

A problem I often run into in talking with Protestants is the "necessary" issue. If I understand correctly, a big part of Protestant history involved getting rid of many excessive or worldly things which had developed in the RC church. The idea that cutting out "unnecessary" rituals, customs, or displays is purifying seems to be part of the Protestant world view, if I am interpreting right. Protestant friends have asked if I consider it necessary to have icons, incense, various church rituals, etc. in order to be saved. From the Orthodox perspective, it is simply the wrong question. Nothing is necessary for me to be saved except God's will that I be saved. In fact, that is the only thing that really counts. From our Church's history, we know of people who have been saved without baptism, without having read or heard the Bible, without ever entering a church, without really knowing who God or Christ is, let alone without receiving any of the other Sacraments or blessings of the Church. Theoretically, that would mean everything the Church has to offer is unnecessary and should be eliminated, including the Bible and baptism itself.

We tend to look at it from the other direction. We are trying to find out way to Heaven, and that can be a struggle. Discarding sacraments, etc. because we might be able to manage without them is like the climber trying to scale Everest without resorting to oxygen. The only reason to attempt it would be so he can brag that he managed the climb without artificial assistance. Our "climb" is far more serious, and we cannot afford to take risks. We will accept anything that might give us a better chance of reaching our goal. Oxygen? Sure. Tent, blankets, space heater and energy bars? We'll take them all. We also gladly accept the Sherpa guide, and if necessary the emergency helicopter ride back down the mountain. That is how we see things like the Sacraments: not "is this really necessary?" but "if it can help me reach salvation, hand it over, along with anything else you got!" 

[obscureepiphany]

Originally Posted by lilyka 

Obscureepiphany's post pretty much sums up the Orthodox position.  

Interesting! I didn't know that! Actually, i am not orthodox, or protestant. I'm a member of the church of Christ.

[lilyka]

Does anyone have any scripture references for why they think it is merely a symbolic gesture or ritual? 

[csekywithlove]

I started going to a bible study at a non-denominational church about three weeks. The first week we discussed baptism. Here is what I have from my notes.

--Baptism is an act of worship through which believers express their faith and commitment. "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit..." --Matthew 28:19

--While the word baptism means the process of immersion, submersion or to be fully wet; the immersion of the believer symbolizes his death to sin and his resurrection to the new life he now has in Christ.  So when you go into the water, you go into Christ with sin. Christ is the water, he washes away the sin and you rise as Jesus Christ did from the cross after paying for the sin of the world. My pastor expressed his belief that one does not need to be baptized in water in order to reach salvation. He said that you must be baptized into Christ in order to be saved. 

--"Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection."-- Romans 6:3-5

--"And this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also-- not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ..." 1 Peter 3:21

I believe that it is symbolic and that there can be ritual to it depending on the church.

I've been baptized twice in my life and I still strive to be a spiritual sponge not just of Christianity. 

I hope that helps. 

[lilyka]

That verse in context...

¹⁸ For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. ¹⁹ After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— ²⁰ to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, ²¹ and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, ²² who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

The symbolic water they are talking about is the water of the flood.  IT was a symbol of baptism.  They are not saying baptism is a symbol of anything.  As a matter of fact the verse says the water of the great flood was a symbol of the " baptism which now saves you".

[csekywithlove]

Perhaps metaphor would have been the best word to use. I think the other two verses are straight forward enough. Just trying to be helpful.