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Vaccine eradication of disease - Page 5

post #81 of 101


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverMoon010 View Post

 



Yes, it's all so hilarious to have such a closed mind and have no idea what's going on in the country.  Not my problem.

 

Anyhow, I doubt any of you above will read the article, but that's okay...Just keeping getting your vaccines and antibiotics for every ailment (superbugs anyone?) and continue falling trap to every single thing you see on TV and read.  What do I care.  Oh, if you still haven't gotten my point, my point was they don't push vitamins! They push the vaccines. Do you ever hear them push Vitamin D for the flu??? NO! I still haven't heard (from the last three posts) anyone make a comment regarding vitamins and illnesses versus vaccination.  You can contribute any time you like, to the topic at hand, rather than focus on everything I say.  If you had anything good to say, you would have said it by now. JMO.

 

http://www.naturalnews.com/022586.html 

 

On that note, I'm out, so no need to respond.  I really need to speak to mature adults and I certainly can't find that here, at least on this thread anyway.wave.gif

 

 


Actually, where I live, our GPs are very, very stingy with the anti-biotics. They ''prescribe'' liquids, vitamins and rest 99% of time. I have NEVER been offered the Flu vaccine at my doctors practise. Nor has my child. They seem to like to save it for the eldery and those who are more at risk or being killed by the flu. I have been prescribed Arnica though.

 

My Chemist/Pharmacy is the same. They would much prefer you take Ivy Leaf Extract over Sudafed. So please. Don't generalise.

 

post #82 of 101
Thread Starter 

NannyMcPhee, I would say that your situation is not what most people experience with MD's.  I know there is a spectrum of what more natural treatments MD's are knowledgeable about and interested in recommending, but most people would have to go to an ND to get that kind of recommendations on herbal treatments, etc.

post #83 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by JMJ View Post

NannyMcPhee, I would say that your situation is not what most people experience with MD's.  I know there is a spectrum of what more natural treatments MD's are knowledgeable about and interested in recommending, but most people would have to go to an ND to get that kind of recommendations on herbal treatments, etc.


yup...in a nutshell. I haven't come across an MD yet who hasn't pushed vaxes like their life depended on it.  

I also haven't come across one yet who has mentioned anything like vitamin D or the like...at all....

I would love to find one but the odds are slim because our insurance dictates who we see and there isn't a ND that is covered under our plan...

 

post #84 of 101

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ldavis24 View Post


yup...in a nutshell. I haven't come across an MD yet who hasn't pushed vaxes like their life depended on it.  

I also haven't come across one yet who has mentioned anything like vitamin D or the like...at all....

I would love to find one but the odds are slim because our insurance dictates who we see and there isn't a ND that is covered under our plan...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JMJ View Post

NannyMcPhee, I would say that your situation is not what most people experience with MD's.  I know there is a spectrum of what more natural treatments MD's are knowledgeable about and interested in recommending, but most people would have to go to an ND to get that kind of recommendations on herbal treatments, etc.


Ditto all of the above. And it's not for lack of trying to find an MD that has an approach you describe NannyMcPhee. I think you have a very unique situation. Just out of curiosity, where is it that you live? What you describe sounds like the kind of MD we'd be looking for.

 

post #85 of 101

I have never put any effort into finding an MD who will talk about nutrition and supplements, and every single one I've ever had a routine physical with has done it.  They don't seem to make time for it when I only see them for sick visits, but my children's pediatrician strongly encourages that parents give a multi-vitamin with vitamin D and a bunch of other things (they gave me a pile of handouts and I lost them), and my person doctor recommends a supplement for his patients as well, as does my GYN.  They aren't NDs or anything, but they have a lot to say about nutrition even beyond recommending a supplement. 

 

I hear tell this isn't typical, but I also sort of wonder if a certain population of patients doesn't give off an "I already know everything about this, don't meddle too much in my life" vibe that doctors respond to by keeping office visits really short.  

post #86 of 101

 


Quote:
Originally Posted by stik View Post

I have never put any effort into finding an MD who will talk about nutrition and supplements, and every single one I've ever had a routine physical with has done it.  They don't seem to make time for it when I only see them for sick visits, but my children's pediatrician strongly encourages that parents give a multi-vitamin with vitamin D and a bunch of other things (they gave me a pile of handouts and I lost them), and my person doctor recommends a supplement for his patients as well, as does my GYN.  They aren't NDs or anything, but they have a lot to say about nutrition even beyond recommending a supplement. 

 

I hear tell this isn't typical, but I also sort of wonder if a certain population of patients doesn't give off an "I already know everything about this, don't meddle too much in my life" vibe that doctors respond to by keeping office visits really short.  

 

I think this is a wonderful practice you are going to if they do this and you are very lucky.  Again, I don't think it's the norm.  Being a first-time parent is extremely overwhelming and I have to say that I am very disappointed in how there is no guidance whatsoever (from our practice anyway, which is supposedly the best practice in my area).  I was open to hearing all kinds of information and tips from the doctor when we brought our son in but I realize this will never happen.  I never gave the impression I knew everything because honestly, I didn't know a whole lot at the time. I was just learning about vaccines myself and had no clue what we were going to decide. 

 

All that happens at our visits are we receive an overwhelming amount of handouts on the vaccines our DS is supposed to get at that visit, the doctor looks him over, and then we are asked if we have any questions. I don't even go to well visits anymore.  They are pointless as they are only scheduled around the vaccines. 

 

I have no guidance from a professional and I feel I have to learn all of this on my own with no assistance.  I have no NDs around me, or else I would be going to one.  All of the doctors in this practice we go to push vaccines first and foremost without verbally discussing them with me (other than those handouts), or even any advice on Vitamin D, etc. 

 

This is when I started to completely doubt what I was being told and figured I had to research everything else on my own because I wasn't satisfied with the information I have been getting from the medical community.  I don't expect anyone to hold my hand but I do expect an amount of education from a medical profession when it comes to a newborn. It just seems to be the American way to overmedicate first without taking other precautionary measures in the first place other than vaccination and I just don't agree with that and I never will.


Edited by SilverMoon010 - 4/24/11 at 12:20pm
post #87 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by stik View Post

I have never put any effort into finding an MD who will talk about nutrition and supplements, and every single one I've ever had a routine physical with has done it.  They don't seem to make time for it when I only see them for sick visits, but my children's pediatrician strongly encourages that parents give a multi-vitamin with vitamin D and a bunch of other things (they gave me a pile of handouts and I lost them), and my person doctor recommends a supplement for his patients as well, as does my GYN.  They aren't NDs or anything, but they have a lot to say about nutrition even beyond recommending a supplement. 

 

I hear tell this isn't typical, but I also sort of wonder if a certain population of patients doesn't give off an "I already know everything about this, don't meddle too much in my life" vibe that doctors respond to by keeping office visits really short.  

Hehe, I wish my kid's ped would STOP meddling or attempting to. He has an opinion about EVERYTHING, I am BFing too long. I should have started with cereals. Co-sleeping is horrible. He is constantly irritated I won't vax. He insists DD needs to have the flouride stuff brushed on her teeth every day (I threw out the script he wrote for it). He tells me now is the time when I need to start saying "no" and doing time-outs. In fact my pediatrician is a veritable wealth of parenting information that isn't related at all to my child's health, just parenting. Despite all this he has never mentioned vitamins of any kind. Doesn't really discuss diet short of saying she looked pale so he thought she was anemic (until the test came back that her levels were fine) and that she should be getting lots of iron (which she does)...


I gotta agree with the PP, you are LUCKY but your experience is so not the norm.
 

 

post #88 of 101

Maybe we need a SO thread on how to find a doc who will talk about nutrition and vitamin supplements (and how to get them to do it).  

 

My pediatrician is kind of schmancy - adorably decorated office next to the hospital, someone answers the phone at all hours, most docs in the practice rated in annual "100 top doctors" listings, all board certified peds - and I told my dd's doc that I taught high school and wanted to do everything conceivable to protect my infant from anything I might bring home from work.  She's been great.  I do vaccinate.  But we also supplement on her advice, and she's been very proactive about offering nutritional advice in re. promoting immunity as well as promoting general health.  There's a big anti-obesity kick - I'm shocked to hear that only my doctors are talking about diet and exercise, but then, I did invite them to.  

 

My GP was picked because he was local and willing to do a sick visit for a non-established patient at the drop of a hat.  Most of his patients are on medicaid/medicare or completely uninsured (and not in the "we're so wealthy insurance doesn't make sense" way.)  We see the nurse practitioner a lot, and they do tend to spend more time and make more nutritional recommendations than MDs do - it's the major benefit of seeing a nurse practitioner.  But when we see the MD he checks in on nutritional stuff too.  They promote the living daylights out of vaccines.  I think it's probably a condition of some of the grants that keep the clinic running.  But again, we vax, and they offer more suggestions about boosting immunity because I have asked them to.  They are not in the least bit trigger-happy with the abx.  They won't give anyone anything unless they've been sick for over a week.  But honestly, I think they also have to be a little creative in keeping their patients healthy because a lot of them can't afford a ton of medication.  

 

I also see the WHNP at my GYN's office.  I love nurse practitioners.  They can and do spend a ton of time talking with patients about their concerns and about nutrition.  When I was pregnant, she was ready and willing to talk about supplements to take and avoid (though she did not initiate the conversation).  She's always been totally willing to answer any of my questions about supplements and to recommend nutritional stuff.

 

That said, I think it helps that I vax.  I think it's possible that if you aren't vaxing, doctors might well assume that you aren't interested in their advice about boosting immunity, of which vaccination is generally a huge piece.  

post #89 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by stik View Post

 

 

That said, I think it helps that I vax.  I think it's possible that if you aren't vaxing, doctors might well assume that you aren't interested in their advice about boosting immunity, of which vaccination is generally a huge piece.  



I think this is an excellent point! I remember when the ped wrote the prescripton for the flouride we were supposed to brush on DD's teeth. We didn't ask for... He said "here this is for her teeth, if you are the kind of people who are ok with that"....He is still annoyed at me because he can't understand why I don't vax, especially when he tells me every WB visit how HE gives his kids all their shots...

post #90 of 101

 


Quote:
Originally Posted by stik View Post

 

That said, I think it helps that I vax.  I think it's possible that if you aren't vaxing, doctors might well assume that you aren't interested in their advice about boosting immunity, of which vaccination is generally a huge piece.  


I understand what you are saying but I'm led to wonder why should those who choose not to vaccinate get different treatment? Just because someone chooses not to vaccinate does not mean they are not interested in boosting immunity.  They just prefer to boost the immune system in a different way.  I feel if a doctor truly cares for his/her patients, he/she will respect the parents 'decision either way and still educate them on other natural ways to boost immunity as well, whether vaccinating or not.  There shouldn't be such judgment there without truly understanding why the patient does not want to vaccinate in the first place. JMO.  A hypothetical....if a patient came to your doctor's office and did not want to vaccinate, your doctor would not provide them with info on supplements etc, as she does for those patients who vaccinate?

 

Maybe we should start another thread? This is a really interesting topic. 

 

BTW, my OB/GYN is great with the supplements and nutritional information too. They are much better than the primary care doctors with that stuff. They seem to actually care about the health of the patients where I go.  It's a nice feeling.

 

(Edited to add: I started a new thread regarding the above topic so as to not go off topic here.)


Edited by SilverMoon010 - 4/24/11 at 5:30pm
post #91 of 101

I have moved the MMS/Chlorine Dioxide conversation to Health and Healing.   Here is the link for the continued discussion of that topic. http://www.mothering.com/community/forum/thread/1309975/spin-off-discussion-about-chlorine-dioxide-and-the-eradication-of-disease#post_16408326

 

Thank you

Lisa

post #92 of 101

Just recently found a new pediatrician because my previous one made me feel soooo guilty about not vaxing my 6mo old.  Funny story when I spoke with the current pediatrician she highly recommended Dr. Sears book and I discovered later in our conversation that she herself had only received ONE vaccine (polio) her whole life and she said it was because of the time in which she grew up.  She also let us know that her own children were only partially vaccinated.  For instance she said that she saw absolutely no reason to get the rotavirus vax (she said to her all that is is diarrhea).  Also had many other comments about vaccines.   During the visit I mentioned to her that my biggest concern was the fact that there had not been enough research done on children with special needs receiving vaccines which is where my son fits in.  I then later told her that I will get my child vaccines when he is older (school age) and his immune system is more able to deal with the vaccines.  Then she said something quite interest that really caught my attention... "The thing about waiting til your child is older is that they may no longer need the vaccine.  One of the primary reasons we give vaccines to young babies is because they are not able to fight the illnesses with their immature immune systems, however when they get older the illnesses no longer affect children the same way.  When you hear of babies dying from vaccine "preventable" illnesses its usually very young babies (under the age of 3 mo)."  She told me that if my child was home most of the time and not in day care or school there was probably really no problem with waiting for some of the other vaccines.  On a side note I am a SAHM and I exclusively breastfeed and will probably do so til he is 9mo. and then slowly introduce foods to my child.  I also plan on bfing til my child is at least 2.  Anyway thought I'd share this eye opening information.

post #93 of 101

oops responded to wrong thread!

post #94 of 101
Thread Starter 

Now that we have that all sorted out, where I would like to go from here is to continue to analyze these three theories for how infectious diseases could cease to become a problem for society or are eradicated.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by JMJ View Post

Theory 1: We allow the disease to run its course to allow people to develop natural immunity.  This creates a sort of a herd immunity where immune factors passed from mother to child causes a slow decrease in severity of the disease over many generations of exposure.  Combine this method with better medical care for treating less common severe cases, and a killer disease has been turned into a mild illness.

 

Theory 2: Use vaccines to reduce the number of non-immune people without actually getting the disease.  Quarantine anyone who gets the disease or is believed to be a possible carrier of the disease.


 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calm View Post

Theory three: diet and lifestyle are everything.

 

Nutrient deficiencies create poor illness outcomes. Infection also drains vitamin and mineral stores. I explain this to clients by holding up my water bottle and saying that illness is like someone comes along and stabs the bottom of my bottle so that everything leaks out much faster and I must refill more often and at a greater rate to even have a chance to keep up with the loss.

 

If the depletion of certain nutrients are not replenished at a HIGH rate (not the RDA!), death can occur. Infection changes nutrient requirements

...the integrity of the body as the ultimate protector and healer.  

 

if all people were checked at time of death..., they'd find ... deficiencies simply because illness depletes stores... - which gives much more clarity as to why poverty is such an indicative state for minor disease resulting in death. 

 

Please feel free to comment on these theories or add your own.  I am particularly interested in what evidence we have that these theories can work, and if so then how?

 

It appears that theory one has happened for some diseases that just aren't a problem anymore, but what evidence do we have that each new disease that comes up could be taken care of in this fashion?

 

Theory 2 seems to be a favorite in the CDC, but we have been vaccinating people for decades, and only smallpox has been eradicated.  It appears to me that a combination of sanitation, vaccination, quarantine, and the specific nature of the smallpox disease (less contageous, obvious symptoms when contageous, vaccine worked somewhat well when administered after exposure, obviously serious disease, etc) that caused smallpox to be eradicated.  We have less evidence that maintaining a 95%+ vax rate will eradicate a disease or keep it out.  Other diseases have been eradicate regionally only to have them come back in, and while unvaxed people are often blamed, it's not just unvaxed people who get sick.

 

Theory 3 is quite interesting to me, probably mostly because I don't understand it fully, and I do not have much evidence for it, but it seems like a very nice idea if it is true.  What evidence do we have that illness drains nutrients (or against this idea) or that people who die of diseases have nutrient deficiencies (or that they do not)?  I have not been able to find any research on this in my limited searching.  I can certainly agree that diseases are more serious for people with nutrient deficiencies.  There is ample evidence for that.  I  am far more concerned about people with terribly nutrient-poor diets faring well in diseases than I am with my family when we do a good job at eating nutrient-rich foods, but we still get sick.  We are trying to rebuild health from mistakes made previously in life, and we have been sick less this winter than ever before, but I am not yet convinced that optimum nutrition could head off every disease or that targeted supplements could stave off death from disease.  Are there not pathogens that are more difficult to kill because they attack or hide from the body's natural immune processes?

 

Calm, I am particularly interested in what you have to say on Theory 3 since it is your assertion, but I understand that you are busy, especially now that you have another assertion to defend on another thread.  Take your time and get back to me when you do have some time.  I'm in no hurry.  This discussion isn't going to disappear any time soon (hopefully), so you can always come back later.  In the meantime, I'd love to hear what any of you other knowledgable women have to say on this topic.

post #95 of 101

I think everyone, whether you eat well 100% of the time or not, is going to get sick. The reason I believe this is not because I don't believe healthy diet and vitamins can prevent illness, but because we are exposed to far too many things every day that weakens the immune system that we don't even realize. Toxic overload is one.  Our environment contains so many toxins, pesticides in food and water, cleaning fluids, chemicals, etc.  Toxic overload disrupts the liver from detoxification which may cause inflammation and destroy healthy tissue.  Toxins directly weaken the immune system. 

 

So many factors play in the role of the immune system like stress, etc. Even if we eat well, there are going to be times when our defenses are down due to lack of nutrients, lack of sleep, overexposure to antibiotics, stress, etc., and we will get sick and have a harder time fighting the illness.  However, I do believe that boosting the immune system with good food, vitamins, watching sugar intake, avoiding toxins as much as possible, etc, will certainly improve on the ability to fight off illness effectively.

 

In an individual with a strong, healthy immune system, I certainly do believe targeted supplementation could ward off death in an illness/disease.  While I haven't yet searched for studies to prove this, it's my belief that a strong healthy body filled with nutrients and good wholesome food is key when it comes to illness/disease.


Edited by SilverMoon010 - 4/26/11 at 6:44am
post #96 of 101

Supplements can and do work. There is a entire industry devoted to Nutriceuticals. However, it is a largely unregulated industry. If you want to use Nutriceuticals I strongly recommend using those that are third party tested for ingredients and have actual peer reviewed studies for efficacy at the recommended dosages. I'm not seeing that MMR has either of those. They should make that information more easily available so that people can have the information before trying their products. Especially since drinking bleach can kill you if you don't get the dosage correct.

post #97 of 101
Thread Starter 

So, I found out today that Rinderpest has been officially declared to be eradicated.  Here's an article about it.

 

Quote:
“Later, sitting in a bar drinking smuggled Peroni beer, it came to us: It wasn’t necessary to constantly be doing mass vaccinations. We were trying to get 30 million cattle and never getting more than nine million. We needed to concentrate on these lowland areas where the virus was persistent. We could vaccinate two million and do better.”

 

That about sums up where I am with my thoughts on vaccines right now.  For both smallpox and now rinderpest, the battle has been won not through mass immunization, but through targeted immunization combined with quarantine and knowledge of the specific workings of a particular disease.  Whether or not my daughter is vaccinated against polio while living in the US means nothing to the polio eradication efforts.


Edited by JMJ - 6/28/11 at 3:20pm
post #98 of 101

Cattle don't get on airplanes and visit other countries the way people do.  Also, they aren't at much risk for being exposed to cattle who went to another country and came back infected with VPDs.  

 

The typical incubation period for polio is 6-20 days, which means it could circulate widely in the human population before a widespread outbreak.  The battle against polio has really not been won in huge chunks of the world.  

 

Your decisions are yours to make, and I don't expect you to change them.  However, I don't agree with the logic you are attempting to promote in this case.  

post #99 of 101

Vaccines are not really eradicating diseases. They are creating new diseases. Genetically modified and engineered vaccines are contributing to mutation, vaccine and antibiotic resistance, horizontal gene transfer, recombination with other viruses and bacteria, cross-species contamination, and therefore the creation of many new hybrid diseases. Vaccines can be contaminated by other virus strains. With all this genetic modification and experimentation going on, this presents new dangers with the emergence of more powerful superviruses and superbugs appearing on the scene. Being that everything is connected, what is happening not only to humanity, but also the animal kingdom, plant kingdom, insect kingdom, etc? There are some very real emerging threats resulting from genetic modification.

 

Use of genetically modified viruses and genetically engineered virus-vector vaccines: environmental effects: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16982535

 

GM Vaccines Recombine into Unpredictable Hybrid:

http://www.seedsofdeception.com/utility/showArticle/?objectID=39

 

GENETICALLY ENGINEERED & MODIFIED LIVE VIRUS VACCINES: PUBLIC HEALTH AND ANIMAL WELFARE CONCERNS

http://www.twobitdog.com/DrFox/specialreport_Article.aspx?ID=273f53f4-bcdc-474f-a189-cca1d1a81c38

 

 

post #100 of 101

Genetic Biophysicist Dr. Mae-Wan Ho weighs in on GM and Science:

http://www.saynotogmos.org/scientists_speak.htm#_mae_wan

 

http://www.i-sis.org.uk/Viruses_and_Virus_Nucleic_Acid_Contaminate_Vaccines.php

 

How measles jumped species after the vaccine was created:

http://www.trackingvaccinations.com/allfiles/mmr.htm#distemper

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