Getting 3 yo raised vegan to eat meat, BTDT?

[Lazurii]

My son, BuggaBoo, has been raised vegan since birth.  We've told him his whole life that it's mean to kill animals and we don't need to eat them.  Now we're launching into TF and he doesn't want to eat animals, which is totally understandable.  I have him try one bite and if he asks for it I'll give him some.  He never eats more than a bite.

He has no problem with eggs and will eat several a day if we let him (and we do!), and we're still on the fence about animal milk.  We're also not adverse to hiding animal products in things, like smoothies or bone stock in soup, because we would do that with veggies and now we believe that animal foods are just as important.

He has had a lot of questions and we try to answer things truthfully on his level, he's really struggling with the new information.  He asks us why the animal had to die, and we say to feed us, and we're grateful for that animals live and we tell God that.  That's also why we don't waste anything from an animal.  He's told me that "bad men" kill the animals, I tell him that a butcher kills the animals as nicely as possible ( which for us is true, we're trying very hard to find ethically sourced meats).  Today I had chicken soup, he asked why the chicken was dead.  I told him it was killed so we could eat it and we're grateful for that.  He then asked if "a butcher is going to come kill our chickens and chicks."  I told him, no, they aren't going to die right now, but when they were very very old then we would do it, and I would do it myself since I know how to butcher chickens.  He really didn't like that, asked me not to kill our chickens.

He's been doing a lot of play to work out his feelings, today he had a truck that was "a butcher truck, and it kills trains and trucks."  I played with him, and while we were playing I told him butchers only kill animals, and so I brought some animals into our play and he "butchered" those.  There was a lot of anger involved.

I knew this was going to be rough when we started, and it's so hard with a three year old because they're so much stronger in their convictions (just the other day he told The Hubby to go get him some water at a fast food place because he doesn't drink soda anymore because it has sugar in it!).

So, anyone BTDT?  Any advice?  We're trying to go slowly with him but he asks such direct questions and I try very hard not to lie to my kids.

[sapphire_chan]

I know there are materials out there that changed the minds of adult vegans about the ethical nature of meat, but I really don't know if those arguments will resonate with a 3 year old. You might find them useful for yourself though.

I believe that one is The Omnivore's Dilemma.

[Arduinna]

Well, I didn't specifically raise my kid vegan with the whole killing animals is evil story. I was veggie and then vegan when she was young but it was just the way we ate, I left out the propaganda. Later when she was about 7 or 8 I went back to an omni diet after I got cancer and was craving meat and dairy and was honest as to why I changed my diet. Since I did the cooking and shopping and she is pretty laid back I don't even really remember it being a big deal. She is 21 now and only recently started asking me why I had been veggie, and she didn't even remember that we were vegan. Personally, I'd seriously consider telling my kid I was wrong. As the mom of an adult kid there have been times when I've had to flat out tell her that I thought something was the right thing but that I was wrong on more than one occasion. I think it's one of the reasons that we are have always been close and had a good honest relationship.

[SandraMort]

I've never told my kids that eating meat was ethically wrong, but I shared my opinion that eating dead animals was disgusting.  My husband did basically the same thing.  When I needed to start eating meat, I told them that I was sad about it (and I still am, to be honest).  So they often tell me that they're sad that I have to eat meat.

Recently, I discussed staying vegetarian with my 12 and almost 10 year olds.  They both looked at me like I was INSANE for suggesting such a ridiculous thing to them.  No anger or criticism, just incredulous that I'd even consider feeding them meat.  I told them that because the 12 year old is anemic and has elevated cholesterol & bp and they eat the same thing, they probably both are.  Therefore, they need to work with me to improve their diet.  I told them that they were old enough to take a lot of the responsibility themselves, since they're at school and out away from me a lot of the time, so I can't control their diets the way I do for the littler two.  Then I explained that it's very possible (because I believe it is) to deal with these issues as vegetarians.  However, it's a lot harder to resolve anemia as a vegetarian, so they need to really commit to working on it, or they're going to have to start eating meat.  I'm leaving that choice up to them,

The younger two haven't been brought into the conversation yet.  My three year old knows that mommy eats "yuckymeat" (what we call it when they're too little to understand what meat is) but I could probably get her to eat it without too much fuss.  My almost six year old is a different story.  I have no idea how he'd react to the idea.

Sandra 

[janinemh]

DS has never been veggie as we began eating meat right around the time he started solids but we are very open about the fact that meat comes from animals who die. We thank the animals---both at the dinner table  and when we butcher our ducks.  DS has usually been around for the butchering and we talk a lot about how it is sad to see out friends the ducks die but that we try to give them the best life and the gentlest death that we can and we celebrate and honor their lives in our bodies.

I think you are doing a great job honoring his confusion, sadness and anger.  If you continue to do this but also help him celebrate the beauty of the food that comes from the animals body, I imagine he might come to a place of acceptance.  I think the PP who said that saying you were wrong is also a powerful thing as well.  I love Full Moon Feast where she writes about "living taking life."  We talk alot in our family about being part of the cycle of death and life---that all things die but they go on to feed other life somehow or other.  All food we put into our bodies comes from this cycle and our bodies too will return and feed the earth eventually

[Lazurii]

Everyone, thanks for the replies and inspiration.  I've read the Omnivore's Dilemma a few years back and really appreciated it.  I live on a family farm growing up and butchered a lot of our animals so I get that aspect of it.

We have told him we're wrong and that we're sad we have to kill the animals, but we feel like it's the right thing to do.  Right now we're just taking it slowly and I remember that he's still nursing frequently so that should help in that way.

Again, thanks for the responses, I love reading them.

[prancie]

I think that you really need to leave the word "sad" out of the discussion with your kids.  It's not sad to kill animals for food and telling your child that will just make him feel guilt whenever he eats.  Meal times shouldn't be funerals for the animal you are eating. 

What would be sad is heirloom varieties of meats dying out because everyone only eats factory farmed meat.  Eating animals gives them purpose and a reason to exist.  There is nothing sad about that.    

[rhianna813]

I am in the same boat. I had been a long time vegetarian (no meat or fish, occasional eggs, yes dairy) when DS came along. When I was PG I started eating eggs daily and added fish into my diet. I craved it big time but planned on going back to veg as soon as he was born. Well that didn’t really happen… the eggs and fish stayed and about 2 + years ago I added all meats back into my diet. DH was a taga long veg but happily eats meat again and we’ve found out recently he is gluten intolerant.

So DS has been vegetarian since birth and I was still on the veg bandwagon during his food formative years. He is also a very picky eater. He is now 7 and has never eaten meat or eggs and refuses. He eats diary with no problems. Dairy, tofu and peanut butter are his main protein source.

What I find surprising is that I never talked about being vegetarian to him. I was in a huge diet transition myself so I didn’t take a stance with him. All on his own he believes eating animals is bad. He has begged me not to eat them L This doesn’t help my journey to broadening his food palate.

I am also not sure what to say to him. His diet is totally backwards to TF: lots of tofu, wheat bread peanut butter sandwiches and cold cereal. I sneak chicken stock into his brown rice and he loves carrots and broccoli. His sweet tooth isn’t horrible – he is equally picky about the treats he likes.

Rhianna

[earthmama369]

We just introduced the kids to chicken for the first time a couple days ago. They're 6 and nearly 5 years old. I've been some variation of veg/pescatarian for nearly 30 years, going back to eggs with my first pregnancy and seafood with my second pregnancy. Recently, dh felt the need to explore the idea of local, humanely-raised meat over soy products shipped from a different continent, with the huge carbon footprint that entails. He asked the kids if they'd be willing to try some meat as well, and they thought about it, asked some questions, and both decided to give it a shot. (Actually, dd's first reaction was "OK, Dadoo. Hmm. How about horse?")

Friends of ours have a small farm. They raise animals for wool, fur, feathers, eggs, milk, and meat. They use sustainable free-range and organic management techniques and they process their meat animals as humanely as possible. Most importantly, they have a son the same age as dd who's very articulate and able to explain their practices and beliefs on a kid level. Last weekend they invited us out to meet the new lambs, watch them nursing, and visit the other animals. For dh, they processed an aggressive rooster so that he could see the whole process and participate in some of it. We gave the kids the choice of watching whatever part they wanted to, or none at all. Both kids participated in the whole thing. They went to the shed to get the rooster, took part in the blessing the family said for his life and the energy and food he would be providing, and helped pluck his feathers afterward. Our friends explained the whole process step-by-step, from how the rooster's energy left his body to what his organs looked like and the function they performed. They gave the kids some feathers and gave us the meat to take home. DH made chicken noodle soup and cooked the heart and the liver and we all tried some. I really appreciate being able to be a part of the whole process and to have known exactly where our meal came from. I was very much on the fence about joining dh on this particular journey until we got to the farm.

I don't think meat is going to be a big part of my diet going forward, but I think it will for dh and at least one of our kids. (My son has always had a strong preference for a lot of protein in his diet and prefers fish and eggs over nuts and legumes.) I like that we have a local option that ethically, I feel comfortable with. We never did demonize meat consumption in the first place, although we had strong words about CAFOs, so we didn't have to jump that hurdle with the kids. But I think being open and honest about our thought process and giving the kids factual information really helped them make their own decisions. Ultimately, whatever they decide, I want my children to have the tools to reason out their decisions, and this was a good opportunity to demonstrate that in a situation where there's a strong argument that can be made either way.

[SandraMort]

Emotions are *NEVER* wrong.  How you choose to react to those feelings is your choice but it's not okay to tell somebody that their feelings are not valid.

And frankly?  I'm sad about eating meat, too.  So not only do I find what you say irritating but personally offensive.
 

Originally Posted by prancie 

I think that you really need to leave the word "sad" out of the discussion with your kids.  It's not sad to kill animals for food and telling your child that will just make him feel guilt whenever he eats.  Meal times shouldn't be funerals for the animal you are eating. 

What would be sad is heirloom varieties of meats dying out because everyone only eats factory farmed meat.  Eating animals gives them purpose and a reason to exist.  There is nothing sad about that.    

[prancie]

If the OP wants to feel sad about eating meat then that's her business.  I just meant that if her goal is to get her vegan son to eat meat then it's not wise to talk about how sad it is to him.  He is already a sensitive child, why make it harder?  If the child wants to volunteer that it's sad, that is his valid feeling, but the parents should not encourage  and entertain those ideas if it is their goal to have him eat meat.  

A lot of things in the world really are "sad" but I stand by my judgement that nourishing our bodies with the meat of animals is not one of them.  

[Toolip]

I think your point is really important. I used to be really sad about the idea of eating meat. I was never a vegetarian but I was really sensitive about the idea of killing animals. I still am somewhat but I'm working through it. I volunteered at a chicken slaughter last year and it was amazing for me. I thought it would be really difficult but it was not! Everyone there was very wonderful, caring and matter of fact. It was not emotionless but it wasn't sad either. I am so grateful for that experience, and I hope to have more. My mom had really been the only one I talked to before and she is very squeamish about the idea of killing but eats meat. I think we are so removed from the process that we (especially kids) are looking to other people to understand how to feel and I think it is valid to say that describing eating meat as being sad is probably not a good way to get a sensitive kid to eat meat. And there are certainly people who don't experience sadness when they eat/kill meat, perhaps it would be valuable for him to meet some of those people. I know it really helped me to have an emotional model to understand the process of killing and eating that was less sentimental than what I had growing up.

[bodhitree]

Maybe framing it in terms of gratitude rather than sadness would be more helpful. It's very respectful of the sacrifices being made to feed you, without imposing any kind of regret.

[SandraMort]

Except, if I understand the OP, she said she was sad in response to butchering meat/witnessing butchering meat.  It doesn't sound like he's removed at all.  For a 3 year old, vegetarian or otherwise, sad seems like a good choice for a word to validate his feeling that it was a difficult experience.  There are very few of us of any age, other than people raised on farms, who DON'T find watching killing animals to be challenging. 

 

I think we are so removed from the process that we (especially kids) are looking to other people to understand how to feel and I think it is valid to say that describing eating meat as being sad is probably not a good way to get a sensitive kid to eat meat.

[SandraMort]

Gratitude and sadness aren't mutually exclusive, but they're also not really fair substitutes for each other.  When I look at my kids and say "My body needs to be eating this meat.  I am not happy about having to do this, but it's what I need to be doing", saying "I'm grateful that this animal died to keep me healthy" is an entirely different sentiment.  It's also true, but it has nothing to do with my statement.

Originally Posted by bodhitree 

Maybe framing it in terms of gratitude rather than sadness would be more helpful. It's very respectful of the sacrifices being made to feed you, without imposing any kind of regret.

[bodhitree]

Originally Posted by SandraMort 

Gratitude and sadness aren't mutually exclusive, but they're also not really fair substitutes for each other.  When I look at my kids and say "My body needs to be eating this meat.  I am not happy about having to do this, but it's what I need to be doing", saying "I'm grateful that this animal died to keep me healthy" is an entirely different sentiment.  It's also true, but it has nothing to do with my statement.

But again, what's under discussion is how to encourage a young child to eat meat. It's clear that children's attitudes can easily be shaped by the values and feelings their parents model--for example, I know your kids are very enthusiastic vegetarians because you've raised them that way. There certainly isn't anything wrong with that, but the OP's goal is something different, so I would think that a lot of talk about how sad it is to eat meat would be counterproductive for her. Discussing gratitude would be a way of recognizing the value of the animal's life, while giving someplace positive to go with it instead of being stuck in feeling sad. Of course, if the child expresses sadness, then you would want to validate that and let him work through it in whatever way seems appropriate. But as the parent in the situation, I wouldn't be initiating lots of talk about being sad. Not that it sounds like the OP is doing this, of course. Unfortunately, I'm not sure there's any shortcut or magic strategy in this situation.

[SandraMort]

Actually, that's exactly what I thought she was saying.  They had the ducks butchered and she mentioned that she was sad, too.  It seemed like an appropriate thing to say to me.
 

Originally Posted by bodhitree 
Of course, if the child expresses sadness, then you would want to validate that and let him work through it in whatever way seems appropriate. But as the parent in the situation, I wouldn't be initiating lots of talk about being sad.  

[Lazurii]

Hi, I'm finally back.  So many interesting things have been brought up!

I'm trying to think if I've inadvertently encouraged his sorrow, but I don't think so.  I think what I've told him is something like, "We need to eat animals now to help our bodies be stronger.  You know those little holes in your teeth?  I want to help you to fix them.  To eat an animal it needs to die, and it's okay to be sad about that if you want to, but we're also grateful for the life of the animal and we'll tell God that when we say our food blessing.  I also feel happy to eat the animals because I think God gave them to us to eat and be healthy and have them taste good."  At mealtimes when he expresses his sadness I tell him it's okay to feel those things, but we're still grateful to have the meat.

I do see how dwelling on his sorrow can prevent him from my goal of getting him to eat meat.  I feel it's very important to validate his feelings, but, well, I don't know what I'm trying to say.  I do know that the last time I ate something animalistic (ribs) in front of him he was very angry with me and sad.  I told him it was okay to feel that way but I was still going to eat the ribs.

So, thank you for all the different perspectives, I've been enjoying reading them.  I have to ask, because I know there are other ex-vegans-gone-TF out there, was it a hard thing for your kids to change, or did they jump all over it?

[erratum]

  I'm going through this exact thing now. One of the deciding factors in our family deciding to eat meat again after being a lacto-ovo vegetarian for 17 years, was finding cavities in my 3 yo's teeth. Dh and I took to it easily, but DS is very opposed to the idea. I roasted a whole chicken the other day, and he made me cover it with a dishtowel while we were eating.

   We've tried to present our vegetarianism as "other people eat meat and that's ok, but we don't." and not push the propaganda. 

We've had a bit of success with bacon and pepperoni, I think in large part because they no longer look like an animal.

   It's only been a few weeks. Right now, our plan is to just be nonchalant about it and just make it a regular aspect of our life, ykwim.  (We take the same approach to greens )  

One thing I haven't straightened out yet is that we've always had a rule that you have to take at least one bite of everything on your plate, but I feel weird as a recently converted moral vegetarian "forcing" my child to eat something he's morally opposed to, rather than something he just thinks is "yucky."

[sapphire_chan]

I think that 3 is a big age for vegetarian/v*gan ideas. When I was that age, I stopped eating hamburgers because I learned they were cows. Another friend's ds came out with how they shouldn't eat eggs anymore because those are from chickens (vegan family).