Rethinking Spay and Neuter

[Mirzam]

I found this to be an interesting article it addresses the over population issue. The article is written for breeders who obviously want to prevent unethical breeding of their dogs.

Unless there is a very compelling reason, I do not plan to neuter my giant breed dog and have no plans whatsoever to breed from him, I believe being intact is better for his health.

http://www.thedogplace.org/Veterinary/Spay-Neuter-1101_Coats.asp

But by far the most startling news to surface this year is the result of a study that shows that keeping ovaries to the age of six years or later is associated with a greater than 30% increase of lifespan in female Rottweilers.⁴ Similar studies in humans reinforce this finding.^7,11

A 30% longer lifespan means that you could have many additional years with your bitch simply by delaying spay surgery until middle-age or later.

Behavioral studies show that sterilization increases fearfulness, noise phobias and aggression. Other well-documented adverse health effects of de-sexing include increased risk of bone cancer, hemangiosarcoma, hypothyroidism, and cognitive dysfunction in older pets. Sterilization confers an increased susceptibility to infectious disease, and also a higher incidence of adverse reactions to vaccines.¹⁰

[Arduinna]

Well expect to get all the rabid spay and neuter people freaking out, it's the modern mantra of pet ownership. At this point a lot of people have no experience whatsoever with intact animals. Spay and neuter has gotten insane to the point where it's routinely done as young as 6-8 weeks even, my sister used to work at an animal BC clinic that routinely did very young puppies. Our society seems to want that type of perpetually childlike dog. I have 9 year old intact female right now that has never been pregnant and another intact female puppy that will not be spayed. I've also had an intact male that was a retired stud dog that I bought from the breeder at 7. He was over vaccinated though and suffered severe arthritis in his later years so he only made it to 15. I'm not sure that intactness alone will add to longevity, diet and general health care for pets is very poor in many cases. Giving dogs a proper diet and limiting vaccination would be a huge improvement though.

[Jane]

I don't think no-spay no -neuter is going to go over well with Cat people.  With Toms spraying and females usually continually cycling, it becomes a big deal.  I really know very little about dogs - what are the downsides to living with an intact dog, on a yearly basis?  How many heats?  Bleeding in the house?  Escapes? 

[Ldavis24]

Originally Posted by Jane 

I don't think no-spay no -neuter is going to go over well with Cat people.  With Toms spraying and females usually continually cycling, it becomes a big deal.  I really know very little about dogs - what are the downsides to living with an intact dog, on a yearly basis?  How many heats?  Bleeding in the house?  Escapes? 

ugh, the only reason our male and females cats are fixed is because they both sprayed like the dickens and it was beyond disgusting. The male actually pissed all over our brand new carseat before DD was born. It took me over a month just to get that stench out. So bad..I didn't want to do it but I couldn't live like that anymore..

As far as dog's my only thing is that pretty much all the research points to neutering and spaying as absolutely reducing aggression (I have owned un-fixed animals before fyi)...I find it hard to believe that an unneutered male dog with testosterone flowing through him like water is less aggressive in general than a neutered male. I'd love more sources for that. Literally ALL the reading/research/training'behavioral stuff I have read says that spaying/neutering reduces aggression. It is often a last resort for super aggressive dogs to try and help them just calm down a little bit in general.
 

[Arduinna]

Originally Posted by Jane 

I don't think no-spay no -neuter is going to go over well with Cat people.  With Toms spraying and females usually continually cycling, it becomes a big deal.  I really know very little about dogs - what are the downsides to living with an intact dog, on a yearly basis?  How many heats?  Bleeding in the house?  Escapes? 

Don't have a cat. As far as dogs, for the first 5 years or so she came in heat about every six months. Since then the time has gradually lengthened and now at 9 she comes in heat about once a year. When she was young we sometimes confined her to a area of the house with hard floors that are easy to clean but even then it was just drops here and there, I haven't seen blood in years now but I can still tell she is in heat by other signs like swelling of the vulva. Never had an escape, never had stray males show up at my house. For her first 5 years or so we also had an intact male, and we basically just played musical doors of who got access to certain parts of the house and outside when she was in heat, we never even had one close call of them mating.  I'm not recommending everyone do it because you do have to be observant and know when your dog is in heat and you do have to diligent especially if you also have an intact male. For the last 4 we haven't had an intact male in the house because we lost ours to old age and it is easier not having to keep them separated.

[babygirlie]

I think people should have the right to choose and should base it on their own research into the subject. To take away these rights is a little.. not sure the word.. dictorial to me. I do breed cats.

I can say the earlier you spay/neuter the easier it is for the animal. A young pet at 12 weeks will bounce back in an hour where as an older pet will have a much harder recovery even at 6 months. But a vet often doesn't have the small delicate hands needed for tiny operations.

I don't breed dogs but my dogs have never been spayed. The result of not spaying can be mammery cancer and pyrometra (uterine infections).. at least in cats. My dog before this one did get mammery tumors at around 9 years of age but we got her the operation that allowed her to live a few more years.

My current dog is 13 years old unspayed. She developed a fatty tumor this year which we are not addressing at this point (I think she's too old for surgery). She's only had shots like twice in her life. She never gets sick. She is very sweet and loving and allows an autistic 2 year old to stand on her, gouge at her etc. and never bites. You couldn't tell she was getting old until about 2 years ago. She still likes to play and fetch though she isn't too fast to obey anymore. She's old enough you can walk your butt around her now alright? is her thinking. She goes into heat once a year. there's very little blood. I do have whole male cats and she  tries to breed them (she's a border collie so it's a weird site with her little foot holding the cat around the waist. She has never been pregnant nor bred.

Cats are different.  Most people let them outside. Boys are in heat 24/7. They YELL, hump each other, blankies, humans.. anything they can, they pee constantly on everything. I have to make a bedroom literally waterproof. They still dug through the linoleum destroying the flooring. I have one who pees in his food dishes. They are under a LOT of distress from these hormones. They never relax. When outside of their room they HAVE to wear diapers. They will also get agressive and the main  stud can no longer be outside of his room as he will attack my roommate and his cat. There's no warning and it will hurt and infect worse than a bulldog on ya.

The girls go into heat for a week every other week. They scream. If not mated they can get sick (a happy cat is a pregnant cat). They pee on everything just like a boy if not mated and can become stressed and angry and yes, they will mount each other causing a houseful of angry females getting unwanted humped bit etc. You can't just let a cat get pregnant willy nilly as their health will decline and should only be pregnant once a year.

Listening to a cat sound like a dying cow for 2 weeks a month is not fun. It will test your sanity and no one in the house will be happy. They can't be around anything your children are into so you HAVE to have some sort of kennel going on not cages but their own entire areas of the house to utterly destroy. Being a real breeder is the most expensive endeaver I have ever done.

Dogs on the other hand.. don't bark and scream when in heat and it's only once or twice a year (you will see blood though unlike a cat).

Having said all that.. if you are responsible in whatever you choose I would support your freedom of choice. I don't believe surgery is best for EVERYONE etc etc. Same as vaccines.

Edited by babygirlie - 4/18/11 at 6:09pm

[happysmileylady]

Cats are different.  Most people let them outside. Boys are in heat 24/7. They YELL, hump each other, blankies, humans.. anything they can, they pee constantly on everything. I have to make a bedroom literally waterproof. They still dug through the linoleum destroying the flooring. I have one who pees in his food dishes. They are under a LOT of distress from these hormones. They never relax. When outside of their room they HAVE to wear diapers. They will also get agressive and the main  stud can no longer be outside of his room as he will attack my roommate and his cat. There's no warning and it will hurt and infect worse than a bulldog on ya.

The girls go into heat for a week every other week. They scream. If not mated they can get sick (a happy cat is a pregnant cat). They pee on everything just like a boy if not mated and can become stressed and angry and yes, they will mount each other causing a houseful of angry females getting unwanted humped bit etc. You can't just let a cat get pregnant willy nilly as their health will decline and should only be pregnant once a year.

Oh, lord yes.  A female cat in heat is horrendous.  My youngest cat was spayed pretty young, but apparently was left with an ovarian remnant, which is exactly as it sounds.  They missed a piece of tissue, and as the cat ages, this tissue can start to produce hormones again.  She had been spayed for over a year, when she suddenly went into heat again.  Oh man, it just reminded me why we spay.  She sounded like we were running her over with car.  Keeping her inside was darn near impossible, and it took a couple of weeks to get an appointment to get it taken care of.  It really seemed like she was in heat almost the entire time, she might have had three or four days off. 

[babygirlie]

We say they're peeling the wallpaper because the sound is that bad. My cat also rubs. She rubbed the veneer ( is that what its called?) off my beautiful new white cabinets and chewed the rest. I just spend many thousands completely insulating the garage so as not to irritate the neighbors nor ourselves. They've already peed on the brand new carpet I bought so I'm off to the stores to buy super hard flooring and silicone and glue it down including the walls.

[Sol_y_Paz]

Originally Posted by Arduinna 
Spay and neuter has gotten insane to the point where it's routinely done as young as 6-8 weeks even, my sister used to work at an animal BC clinic that routinely did very young puppies. 

Not working well enough to prevent overpopulation, shelters and rescues are still busy and dogs are put to sleep due to high numbers of irresponsible human decisions. 

I don't spay or neuter until adulthood, but have no qualms with people spaying and neutering animals very young. 

[Mirzam]

Originally Posted by Sol_y_Paz 

Not working well enough to prevent overpopulation, shelters and rescues are still busy and dogs are put to sleep due to high numbers of irresponsible human decisions. 

I don't spay or neuter until adulthood, but have no qualms with people spaying and neutering animals very young. 

According to the article I posted the your first point is not the case, there are many more people wanting animals than animals available, so the issue is getting these people matched up with pets.

In recent years, according to Avanzino, annual shelter death numbers have dramatically declined to about 12 per thousand human residents, or about 3.6 million deaths each year. This amounts to a staggering 85% reduction in killing since the 1970s.²  We have reached a nationwide pet shelter death rate averaging just 1.2% per population, effectively a “no kill” rate.

According to shelter expert Nathan Winograd, every year in this country, approximately 3 million adoptable pets die in shelters.* At the same time, around 17 million US households are looking for a new pet. That is 17 million households above and beyond those who already will adopt a shelter or rescue pet. There are nearly six times as many homes opening up every year as the number of adoptable pets killed in shelters!⁸

And as for your second point, pediatric spay and neuter can have both negative behavioral and long term health impacts on a dog, and waiting to adulthood to neuter is definitely better for the animal. But of course the decision should be up to the individual pet guardian.

[Arduinna]

Not working well enough to prevent overpopulation, shelters and rescues are still busy and dogs are put to sleep due to high numbers of irresponsible human decisions. 

You misunderstood my post, it had nothing to do with the reducing pet populations.

[Sol_y_Paz]

Originally Posted by Mirzam 

According to the article I posted the your first point is not the case, there are many more people wanting animals than animals available, so the issue is getting these people matched up with pets.

Too bad that article isn't making that happen then.  Because petfinder is full of animals who need families and also so are my local shelters and even local purebred rescue organizations.  It really is a real concrete problem.  
 

[Ldavis24]

Originally Posted by Sol_y_Paz 

Too bad that article isn't making that happen then.  Because petfinder is full of animals who need families and also so are my local shelters and even local purebred rescue organizations.  It really is a real concrete problem.  
 

seriously the last thing your local shelter worker will tell you is they are having issues with all the people clamoring for shelter dogs..I just can't buy that line that there are more people seeking to adopt pets than there are available animals. That is pure BS.

[Arduinna]

Originally Posted by Sol_y_Paz 

Too bad that article isn't making that happen then.  Because petfinder is full of animals who need families and also so are my local shelters and even local purebred rescue organizations.  It really is a real concrete problem.  
 

Pet finder is full of animals that need homes because we live in a culture where pets are disposable. Those pets had homes, but they lived with people that chose to give them up instead of take care of them. Spaying and neutering every animal born isn't going to change that.

[kristandthekids]

Originally Posted by Arduinna 

Pet finder is full of animals that need homes because we live in a culture where pets are disposable. Those pets had homes, but they lived with people that chose to give them up instead of take care of them. Spaying and neutering every animal born isn't going to change that.

And making those animals have longer life spans (supposedly) and be harder to take care of responsibility would make the problem worse, not better.

If YOU are taking care of your intact animals responsibly, awesome. Good for you. Rock on. But when we have so many unwanted animals being put down every day, encouraging others not to sterilize is just irresponsible.

[happysmileylady]

Originally Posted by Arduinna 

Pet finder is full of animals that need homes because we live in a culture where pets are disposable. Those pets had homes, but they lived with people that chose to give them up instead of take care of them. Spaying and neutering every animal born isn't going to change that.

Not necessarily true.  I have seen many shelters posting baby animals who were born in the shelter or rescue organization-they never had homes.  There are also many listed who were born to mammas who were not fixed, yet the mamma's owners weren't prepared for the kittens or puppies that resulted from leaving their pets intact.  Just because those animals were born in a house that doesn't mean it was their home.  Petfinder has many many animals who never had a home.
 

[Ldavis24]

I think the bottom line is shelters and petfinder are full of animals who both had homes and were born either in the shelter or brought right there after the birth...

Spaying and Neutering can only help the problem not hurt it. Unfortunately, yes, animals are seen as disposable, they are also seen as money makers for greedy a-holes who could care less about the animal they are breeding. Cats are a huge issue with spaying and neutering due to the number of people who just let them out (un-fixed) and then poof lots of mating takes place outside and LOTS of unplanned for/unwanted babies appear, every spring is crazy time for shelters with the number of kittens (who never had homes) that come in. So yeah especially in the case of cats spaying and neutering can only be a good thing...

Dogs I agree with as well, it can only help to get them fixed not hurt the problem.

[2xy]

I understand the position of the OP, but I will still spay/neuter every pet I ever own. Not when they're just weeks old, but after they've been allowed to develop towards adulthood.

Sure, I suppose it's nice to think of a 30% longer lifespan for your pet. I suppose it's nice to think that my great-grandchildren might live to be 120, but it's not necessarily the best thing for the species or the planet. We're already living unnaturally long lives. Are we trying to do that for animals now? A 13yo dog isn't old enough? They need 5-6 more years of hanging out in the backyard?

As someone who has spent time volunteering in animal shelters, and who has a friend who does foster care for animals the shelters have no room for, I call BS on the notion that we are in short supply of shelter pets. I worked in a no-kill shelter that literally had animals that lived there for YEARS.

[Ldavis24]

hmm purely anecdotal but my German Short Haired Pointer lived to 18 years...She was hit by a car twice too and she was spayed at 3 years old after being a show dog...Best dog I ever had

I too agree that the idea that there are more people wanting to adopt animals in this country than animals in shelters is just crazy and untrue... 

[RabbitMomma]

I'm a huge advocate of spaying and neutering dogs, basically for the behaviour problems that it avoids and because it only takes one time to have an accident, and that accident can lead to a lot of suffering for many dogs. In my opinion the majority of dog owners are not prepared to handle intact dogs, and I think for most it is far better for their lifestyle and understanding of dogs to get them neutered.

Having said that, if a person is prepared to handle an intact dog, and takes the proper measures to ensure that they do not have any "accidents" and are contained properly, I do not see a problem with a person making their own choice. There is a way to responsibly keep an intact dog, responsible breeders do it all the time and never have accidents. Having a male however, just be aware that you will have to be prepared for unspayed females around you and your dog, and take proper precautions. This means being extremely cautious if you ever choose to take your dog off-lead, and perhaps even avoiding taking him off lead when there are other dogs around. This decision is not something to be taken lightly, and is one that will require a lot of extra work on your part. I would talk to a few vets about what the health risks are in neutering and spaying, and maybe even a few dog trainers in the area to see if you can get a better idea of what having an intact dog will entail. It's entirely your right to decide, but I think you should go into it very well informed and prepared.

I also agree that the idea that there aren't is more of a demand for shelter dogs than there are dogs in shelters is ridiculous and 100% untrue. I've volunteered at animal shelters for years and the case is the exact opposite in most.