Just at a loss with my six year old.

[mamaecho]

Alright ladies, I'm in desperate need.

We are relatively new to gentle discipline so I will say I still don't know the tricks of the trade.

My oldest son Riley has decided to really start using his words to hurt me, his brother, his dad, etc. Today at Target after I told him he couldn't have something he kept yelling that I was so dumb, I was the dumbest mom ever, etc. I am at a loss on what to do.. Obviously this doesn't hurt my feelings as I know he's just frustrated, but I don't know how to curb the behavior. I would rather him honor me with his words but I don't know how to accomplish this.. HELP!

[Thandiwe]

I don't totally agree with everything she says, but Naomi Aldort's book "Raising Our Children, Raising Ourselves" has helped me some in this area.  I cannot guarantee this will work, but coming at the problem from that perspective, have you tried validating his feelings right then?  Instead of denying him and shushing him up (which is so tempting when they are being so, er, um, "pleasant"?? lol), what about speaking right to that anger.  Perhaps this:

"You're really mad at me right now, huh?"  "You must think I'm dumb because I won't give you what you want."  "This must be really upsetting to you."  And then let him talk about it.  It is our job - and it's not an easy one! - to teach our kids to use their words to express feelings articulately instead of barbarically.  It is so much easier to say, "You're stupid!" or "You're so dumb!" but much more work to say, "I am really mad right now that I can't have that toy!" 

Perhaps even try talking to him once he's simmered down a bit and explain exactly why he can't have that toy and talk about alternatives.  With my boys, I might say:  "Y'know, we don't have a lot of extra money right now, so I just can't get that toy.  I know you want it, but we can't always get fun stuff."  Whining and fussing would ensue, to which I would probably answer, "Why don't we go home and add it to a wish list?  I know birthdays and holidays are coming up where it might be fun to get it," or, "Maybe you'd like to do a few more chores/tasks at home to earn some extra $ so you can buy that yourself?" if you're doing chores/allowances.

Good luck.  It is very difficult.  There are so many great books out there; I'd totally urge you to look into reading some of the gentle discipline books out there.    Some days are better than others, even for those of us who've been doing this longer.  And sometimes, nothing works, lol!

[hakeber]

Ouch.  That sounds really hard. I would definitely try modelling with him, and just don't react to the negativity negatively.

Something like: "I'm sorry you feel that way.  I know it is hard to hear no.  It isn't no forever, just no for now."  And I find it is helpful to hug my son when he gets like this.  It usually leads to him crying uncontrolablly, and sometimes especially when disappointment has been added to other emotional/physical issues (frustration, school troubles, hunger, triedness etc) it's a real release.  

When DS blows up with me with "I hate you!" or "I'm never going to be a part your family again!"  I get down on his level, hold his hand and say "what's really going on?  'cause I don't think it's about a toy.  I'll put the toy on your list for Christmas, okay?  Now what's up, pal?"  I usually have to get down shoulder to shoulder on a bench or a curb to get it out of him (he tends to communicate better side by side rather than face on) but eventually after whining about the toy, and me and how nobody listens to him and he never gets what he wants he gets down to the root.

It's tough, and some days (ugh especially at a place like Target) I just feel like turning around and saying "Yeah, well, the feeling's mutual, pal!"  Of course I don't say it, but sometimes I think it...hard.  Knowing that it's not about you, but it's about feeling powerless and feeling like no one hears you, helps me to find the empathy I need to get through the murk and mire and find the little boy I love. 

[hakeber]

BTW, the power of the word is a fascinating thing to discover and he may justbe experimenting. Give him the tools to communicate without violence and give him the chance to see how effective that is and he may never turn back to violent communication again...well almost never ;-)

Check out CNVC.org...all I ever needed to know about gentle discipline has its foundations there.

[Dandelionkid]

Something that always works with my kids (from "playful parenting") is "you can call me dumb, I really don't care, but don't ever,EVER call me ___________!!!! (something silly like loopy-doopy or something). Then act horrified when they call you the new "bad word" and go from there.This game always stops the disrespectful words and puts everyone in a better mood. 

[D_McG]

I cut that off immediately. "that's rude and unacceptable. Go in your room and think about a better way we can talk". It just doesn't get any airtime.

[mamazee]

I would say something like, "It's ok to be angry, but it's not ok to talk to me like that. I don't call you dumb and I expect you to not call me dumb as well. Next time try saying something like 'that made me really angry' instead of saying hurtful things.". At 3 I might try playful parenting, but at 6 I think this is a different issue.

The important thing is to stop and say something every single time he uses language like that until he gets out of that habit. It will take effort but it will help him in his interactions with other people as well and throughout his life, so it's worth the time.

[girlmeetsknitting]

A six year old is totally capable of handling disappointment without becoming verbally abusive.  In that situation the very first time he made a rude comment I would say something like " That's not okay.  I don't call you names and you don't need to be calling  me names".  If the behavior continued I would leave the store right then and there.  Then the next trip to the store, he would not be invited to join you.  I would simply explain "Last time you screamed and called me names, and I didn't like that, maybe we'll try again later".  Then simply go.  This way you are teaching him that verbal abuse does not pay off, and it can have lasting consequences.  I would try not to get into a verbal discussion with him when the abuse is taking place.  Let him know its not okay, and you will not tollerate it.  At a more peaceful time its a good idea to go over appropriate responses to disappointment.  Give different senarios, tell stories, roll play, brainstorm solutions etc.  Good Luck! 

[philomom]

Originally Posted by D_McG 

I cut that off immediately. "that's rude and unacceptable. Go in your room and think about a better way we can talk". It just doesn't get any airtime.

Us, too. We do a lot for our children and we don't deserve to be treated that way.

[Jenni1894]

Originally Posted by girlmeetsknitting 

A six year old is totally capable of handling disappointment without becoming verbally abusive.  In that situation the very first time he made a rude comment I would say something like " That's not okay.  I don't call you names and you don't need to be calling  me names".  If the behavior continued I would leave the store right then and there.  Then the next trip to the store, he would not be invited to join you.  I would simply explain "Last time you screamed and called me names, and I didn't like that, maybe we'll try again later".  Then simply go.  This way you are teaching him that verbal abuse does not pay off, and it can have lasting consequences.  I would try not to get into a verbal discussion with him when the abuse is taking place.  Let him know its not okay, and you will not tollerate it.  At a more peaceful time its a good idea to go over appropriate responses to disappointment.  Give different senarios, tell stories, roll play, brainstorm solutions etc.  Good Luck! 

My son is 6 and has uttered "those" words ONCE.  He was sent to his room.  He threw a fit for what seemed like hours and then came down apologizing sincerely!   I don't remember the cause...I think I told him to clean up!! 

So he knows better at this point and I'd just leave the store and he would lose a privilege (computer, TV time, bike, whatever) once we got home also. 

My 3 year old when thru an I don't like you stage.   And she has no issues with letting you know how she feels about things!!!   I handled her outbursts exactly as PP described.   She has not uttered those words to me or her brother in a very long time.   You just have to be consistent and they will get it.   

[GoBecGo]

I sometimes use the playful approach, sometimes the hard lines.

For example the other day DD was belligerently nagging me about something she wanted (and had been respectfully and apologetically told she couldn't have) and i was asking her to please leave my room (i was trying to put the baby down to nap) and she slammed the door.  I immediately yelled that she come back RIGHT NOW and told her in no uncertain terms that she would NOT be slamming the doors and that she would afford me the respect i afford her or she would go to her room.  She immediately apologized.

Last week she began telling me she hated me, and i told her i loved her but i hated her stinky foot.  Then i grabbed one foot, sniffed it, and said "lovely" in a funny voice, then repeated with the other and said instead "stinky".  She giggled and we moved on.  The main difference was that i knew she was very hungry, waiting for her dad to come (he'd been unexpectedly delayed after telling her he'd be there a certain time) and was feeling out of sorts still after a virus she was still coughing from.

So sometimes leeway helps and sometimes a clear boundary does.  It just depends in our house what is going down beforehand.

[hakeber]

Originally Posted by D_McG 

I cut that off immediately. "that's rude and unacceptable. Go in your room and think about a better way we can talk". It just doesn't get any airtime.

So, just out of curiosity, what happens if your kids CAN'T think of a better way to say what they're feeling? 

I have told DS (who was writing words with creative spelling by 4) to write it down in a letter.  His letter was pretty angry, but it helped him calm down and think rationally (for a four year old).

On a side note: I am really impressed by the number of moms here who never yell angry things to their friends or family and are so in control of their feelings all the time that they never ever say rude things they don't mean.  It must make it so much easier to show your kids how to express themselves appropriately, and peacefully when you lead by such glowing example.

What's your trick? 

[D_McG]

Originally Posted by hakeber 

So, just out of curiosity, what happens if your kids CAN'T think of a better way to say what they're feeling? 

I have told DS (who was writing words with creative spelling by 4) to write it down in a letter.  His letter was pretty angry, but it helped him calm down and think rationally (for a four year old).

On a side note: I am really impressed by the number of moms here who never yell angry things to their friends or family and are so in control of their feelings all the time that they never ever say rude things they don't mean.  It must make it so much easier to show your kids how to express themselves appropriately, and peacefully when you lead by such glowing example.

What's your trick? 

He'll learn! We're all learning all the time. There are repercussions for all of us when we are out of control and rude. Even if I wanted to (which I don't) I couldn't engage in some playful parenting exercise if he is spewing hateful things at me. No way.

[hakeber]

Even if I wanted to (which I don't) I couldn't engage in some playful parenting exercise if he is spewing hateful things at me. No way.
 

I couldn't really ever get it up for playful parenting either...not even at the best of times.  But I would worry about the reprecussions of shutting down communication at a moment when my kid is clearly freaking out...he may learn not to talk like that, but I am not sure he'll learn how to really communicate effectively if I only allow nice communication. 

So, Mamaecho, I think it might be a good idea to think about how you would like to be treated if you were out of control and losing it.

A few weeks ago I had a USB virus situation about two hours before a major presentation that I had spent seven hours preparing a Power Point for.  I sat in the staff room cursing out the computer under my breath and when my co-worker asked what was wrong, and I told her on the verge of tears and she said "well just call IT, I'm sure they can fix it." I lost my mind and said some pretty rude and horrible things about her, about the IT department, about the school in general and their sucky computer system...I was like a verbal cannon of ire pointed straight at her innocent face.

Do you know what my co-worker did?  She put her hand on my shoulder and kissed my cheek and hugged me and said "I'm sorry.  I hate when I have days like that." and she gave my hand a squeeze and when I went out to the balcony to cry, she followed me with a cup of tea and listened to me crying (and apologizing profusely for everything I said  and how I was behaving etc.) and she helped me calm down and think of a plan for how to fix my immediate problem.

She didn't deserve my outburst, and I certainly didn't deserve her kindness or compassion after the things I said.  But, it was EXACTLY how I would like someone to treat my children if they were ever as upset as I was then.  

I try to use that sort of behavior as my benchmark for how to handle my kids outbursts of abuse.  We all have moments we aren't proud of, and sometimes a cooling off moment is a good thing, but people explode for a reason, and if you just shut down communication at the first sign of trouble, how can you find out what that reason is?

Abuse is NOT okay, and words really can hurt, but everyone's words mean something and it's a good idea to find out what that really is before we take it too personally and shut down the lines of communication entirely.

Edited by hakeber - 4/21/11 at 7:31pm

[Callimom]

Originally Posted by hakeber 

I couldn't really ever get it up for playful parenting either...not even at the best of times.  But I would worry about the reprecussions of shutting down communication at a moment when my kid is clearly freaking out...he may learn not to talk like that, but I am not sure he'll learn how to really communicate effectively if I only allow nice communication. 

Abuse is NOT okay, and words really can hurt, but everyone's words mean something and it's a good idea to find out what that really is before we take it too personally and shut down the lines of communication entirely.

I disagree that abuse is communication. I think you can absolutely shut down abusive communications and still help children articulate their feelings or needs in a postive and proactive way.

While what your co-worker did was (very) generous I don't know that it would be effective as a general parenting strategy for a kid who is testing limits because it misses the crucial step of teaching the child a better way to cope before (and possibly after) the frustration. As an adult you could probably connect the dots between your behaviour and the outcome, and make better choices down the road, but younger kids especially aren't developmentally able to always understand the consequences of their actions or the perspectives of others.

OP It is hard to offer advice without knowing how old your son is.  In our house the response to something like that would be "It's okay to be angry. It's absolutely not okay to try to hurt someone because you feel angry. Do you want to talk to me about how you are feeling now or do you need some space to calm down first?"   We have a set of 5 family rules which the kids were instrumental in writing and which include the rules be kind, and use your words to solve problems. We'd use both those rules as a jumping off point to talk about the behaviour, why it doesn't meet our family's expectations and what other strategies could be used to solve those problems.

hth

Karen

[One_Girl]

I suggest talking to him when you are both calm, and before the next incident, about it being okay to be angry but not okay to say things to hurt other people and it isn't okay to yell in a store because it disturbs the other people in the store.  I have always walked my dd out to the car when she misbehaves in the store, or at least offered her the choice between calming down and going to the car (something she knows I will follow through on), when she needs to regain control of her body in the store so she doesn't disturb other shoppers.  When she is calm we go back inside and finish our shopping.  At home we have a rule about not disturbing the peace in the rooms we share as a family so she has to choose a place to be alone that isn't for everyone to be in peacefully (bedroom or bathroom) to yell and say mean things.  Along with that though I try to always be there for her to work to find a compromise and to listen to her when she wants to talk.  I empathize a lot, we talk about feelings a lot, I have taught my dd to how to express uncomfortable emotions like anger in appropriate ways (and she has done so for years), we talk after an inappropriate outburst about what the problem was and she makes a plan for expressing herself more appropriately the next time, and I try to find other things that we can do or remind her of the fun things we have coming up to take her mind off of what she can't have. 

If you think this is more of a struggle with dealing with strong emotions and controlling them, versus him trying out the power of his words to get his way, then I think you should focus more on finding ways to help him identify emotions.  What you describe sounds like something my dd started doing when she realized that when kids call each other mean the other kid changes their mind so they won't seem mean, if this is more about him melting down than acting out then sending him out to work through this on his own won't help because it will fuel the anger more.  If you feel like your son really needs to work on identifying emotions and working with his emotions then I suggest the book Raising a Thinking Preteen because the author does a great job of giving easy to do exercises for emotional competency and setting the stage for talking things through while seeing the other persons point of view.  If you can get a copy at your library I highly recommend it.

[hakeber]

Originally Posted by Karenwith4 

I disagree that abuse is communication. I think you can absolutely shut down abusive communications and still help children articulate their feelings or needs in a postive and proactive way.

While what your co-worker did was (very) generous I don't know that it would be effective as a general parenting strategy for a kid who is testing limits because it misses the crucial step of teaching the child a better way to cope before (and possibly after) the frustration. As an adult you could probably connect the dots between your behaviour and the outcome, and make better choices down the road, but younger kids especially aren't developmentally able to always understand the consequences of their actions or the perspectives of others.

Can you explain the process you're describing here?  I don't follow.  I agree you can and should make the child aware that abuse is not acceptable and make the child aware that their behavior is unacceptable, but how do you make someone else stop being abusive?  Tape their mouth shut?  Lock them in their room until they promise to be nice? Send them to their room until they can think of a better way to express themselves? How can they be ready to work it out on their own, but not ready to have a heart to heart talk led with compassion, empathy and understanding?  I don't follow.  That seems very contradictory to me.  Can you give me more details, because I can't wrap my head around how it is effective in anything but teaching a child NOT to express those feelings, rather than HOW to express those feelings and how to apologize for outbursts when they can and WILL happen throughout their lives. 

Please just walk me through what happens if you have an out of control child, let's say my six year old who like everyone now and then has a bad day and he starts really losing it on everyone..."I hate my family, I hate gravity,  you're all stupid, I hate these stupid rules!!!!" etc etc  how would you handle that? 

Because it SOUNDS very much like you're saying you should simply shuttle them to their room until they can be nice no matter how long it takes. Is that what you would hope for from people if you were having a meltdown?  Or do you never have meltdowns and just expect your kids to get a grip and figure it out?

Because here is how I would handle it:

Hug the child and hold him close and tell him I love him very much and I know he is disappointed and sad and hurt.  I would hug him until he was done crying and if I needed to walk away to regain my energy and strength because it was making me angry, I would, but then I'd go back to them until they had released it all. Then with a younger child I would talk about choices we make, consequences of those choices, what made them angry, and strategies to help them express anger better and more respectfully and how to apologize when we forget, and with an older child I would talk about what happened and work through an apology. This is definitely something that works for us. ETA: Obviously my Co-worker does not need to teach me these things, I know them already because of a life time of learning, but I think the approach of empathy and kindness rather than defensiveness and authority is important to our family.  Do you see what I mean?

Like One Girl, we also have a rule about peaceful shared spaces so these hugs and conversations do happen in a bedroom or the office, rather than the living room. 

Everything we do is communication of some form and can tell the observer what we feel, and what we want.  Whether we like what is being said or how it is being said or how effective it is does not define communcation. 

[Callimom]

Originally Posted by hakeber 

Can you explain the process you're describing here?  I don't follow.  I agree you can and should make the child aware that abuse is not acceptable and make the child aware that their behavior is unacceptable, but how do you make someone else stop being abusive?  Tape their mouth shut?  Lock them in their room until they promise to be nice? Send them to their room until they can think of a better way to express themselves? How can they be ready to work it out on their own, but not ready to have a heart to heart talk led with compassion, empathy and understanding?  I don't follow.  That seems very contradictory to me.  Can you give me more details, because I can't wrap my head around how it is effective in anything but teaching a child NOT to express those feelings, rather than HOW to express those feelings and how to apologize for outbursts when they can and WILL happen throughout their lives. 

Please just walk me through what happens if you have an out of control child, let's say my six year old who like everyone now and then has a bad day and he starts really losing it on everyone..."I hate my family, I hate gravity,  you're all stupid, I hate these stupid rules!!!!" etc etc  how would you handle that? 

Because it SOUNDS very much like you're saying you should simply shuttle them to their room until they can be nice no matter how long it takes. Is that what you would hope for from people if you were having a meltdown?  Or do you never have meltdowns and just expect your kids to get a grip and figure it out?

Sorry - I seem to have pissed you off but I don't really know why. And no I don't expect my kids to just get a grip and figure it out without my help. I don't however have kids who have ever lost it in such a way as to lash out abusively as a way of communicating what they are feeling.  It's not something they see from me or their father and it's just not something that would occur to them. It's just not acceptable in our family. However that doesn't mean that they are locked in a room, or have their mouth taped shut  or not allowed to express their feelings. Quite the contrary. They get angry, frustrated, hurt etc -  absolutely -we all do but that doesn't equate to expressing ourselves in ways that are deliberately hurtful to others as a result.  My children regularly will express their hurt, anger, frustration etc - sometimes with yelling, sometimes with tears, sometimes with a door slam,  but I honestly can't recall a child of mine ever saying that they hated me or their dad or a sibling in anger.  They have no need to do that.  Things may change in their teenage years -lol - my oldest is only just 13 now so we will see.  I have a hard time imagining it though - even my daughter (10) who has diabetes and can often react with strong emotions and out of character if she is really low or high has never said those words to anyone in those circumstances.  

However if they did we would tell them that's not an acceptable way to express whatever it is they are feeling because there is no place in a loving relationship for that kind of hurtfulness.  And then we'd help them identify and express what they are actually feeling. It's not the feelings that are the problem - it's the way we express them that indicates emotional maturity. Anger is often a secondary emotion - and so if the frustration level is running high, or a child is feeling sensitive, or the energy is getting out of control I step in before they lose it. I try to be proactive in interrupting the escalation of those situations where a child is likely to feel out of control.  The kids will help each other now with it, or come and get me if they sense one of them needs some help. I try to talk to them when I feel angry etc and let them see how I try handle it proactively.

We talk about strategies to help them "right their cup" before things get to the point where the only release is an explosion. We talk about the damaging effect of hurtful words and actions and that you can't ever take those things back. We talk about the fact that hurting someone else in anger doesn't solve anything and actually makes everyone feel worse.   I have different strategies for each of my kids depending on their needs. Some need to be physically close to me or their dad to defuse, some need space, some need help with deep breaths, some need code words to remind them and make them aware of their feelings. We try and be proactive in giving them tools to identify and manage their feelings before they get to big to handle and also help them to make amends if they hurt someone.

There's a great book about raising emotionally intelligent children which has been really helpful in our family.

Hope that helps explain where I am coming from.

Karen

[Subhuti]

I ignore outburts like that, because they dont seem to be a pattern.

I would try to hug them or hear them out.

Later i might say that name calling is not ok.

But if it became routine, i would set firm limits ... Leaving the store, time alone in their room etc.


Otoh, when my kids do it each other, i wil set a fimer limit, immediately. I can ignore the comments, but a child ... Its more toxic.

Good luck

Liz

[BellinghamCrunchie]

Originally Posted by Karenwith4 

I disagree that abuse is communication. I think you can absolutely shut down abusive communications and still help children articulate their feelings or needs in a postive and proactive way.

I think what Hakeber is saying is that its more important to listen to what the child is trying to communicate rather than have it be your priority to shut down communication you don't like.

I'm surprised at some of the answers here, where the FIRST choice of the parent is to PUNISH: take him out of the store immediately. Don't take him to the store the next time you go. Even if its days later. Be sure to remind him why you are not taking him to the store days later. Make him go to his room and stay there until he can be nice. Nip this behavior in the bud. Let him know in no uncertain terms his behavior will not be tolerated. Ouch, ouch, ouch.

Why does our first response have to be "hurt him back so he'll learn?"

Isn't it always better, if you are going to err as a parent, to err on the side of being "too" loving or too understanding than to punish something you might not even have completely understood the motivation for?

I loved Habeker's example of the coworker who returned verbal abuse with kindness. If someone treated me that way, my value of that relationship would go way up, and I would work hard to honor that relationship in the future. I would do this because of the remembered kindness and caring and love that was shown to me. I would rather change my behavior out of what feels like a loving choice on my part than out of fear of what kind of punishment I might get. I would rather my 6 year old think about what words she is going to use when she is frustrated because she likes the harmony and love between us, and not because she's learned to be wary about what might happen to her if she screws up.