Kept from harder work to show "maturity"?

[b_light]

When I was in school, this was a common theme: I'd qualify for advanced courses via testing, but teachers recommended I not go because I had poor study skills, behavioral problems, or I rarely completed homework. My mother always took the teacher's advice. Occasionally, there was a trial in a more advanced course and when my study skills or behavioral issues (ADHD) didn't disappear, I was sent back to the regular (or slightly advanced) classes. I'll say the bouncing back and forth really did a number on my self-esteem.

My 4 year old's preschool teacher is saying something similar. He's being kept from harder material that she's said he is ready for so he can show "maturity" first.

I'm very curious if holding children back from material they are intellectually ready for is a good technique for learning skills like "following directions", "following through with a task", concentration skills, etc. These are valid skills and my son really does need to learn them (among other social skills that are lagging). He's very inquisitive and enjoys academics.

My son is not the teacher-pleasing type, and has not been identified as gifted (no tests have been administered). I just thought this the best forum to pose this question.

[Cheshire]

I know exactly what you are talking about.  If you haven't ever looked into it before google visual spatial learner and see if you and your son have the characteristics.  Both DH and I are strong VS learners and so is our son. 

If you are read the book Right Brained Child in a Left Brained World.  It helped me understand why teaching the whole idea first and then breaking it down into pieces is so important to the VSL.  And, that we understand more complicated work and the simpler things can trip us up.  Also totally explains the characteristics that many teachers see as immature but are just in our nature and who we are.  We can totally focus if we think it is worth our time or if we are interested.  It just takes looking at learning from a very different point of view than traditional schools. 

I've learned some really simple skills that have made a big difference for our son in school this year.  His teacher was also very open to it when we met with her and gave her some basic information about how to reach a VSL. 

If VSL doesn't fit for you guys then look at the other learning styles and see what you can find.  Waiting on "maturity" is a waste of valuable time - as he is more challenged he will find his focus.  Blaming it on a child who is already natural learner is the sign of a teacher who doesn't want to stretch her style to fit his needs. 

Best wishes.

[b_light]

Thanks for the reply!

I know for sure that I am a visual spatial learner.

My son has signs of both visual-spatial and auditory-sequential learning, though. He can recall large amounts of auditory information, verbatim. He's done well with phonics, and doesn't enjoy sight words (I'm not sure he knows any). Mathematically, he seems more visual, and truly enjoys playing with numbers and patterns. He'll often be found whispering to himself about numbers while playing with his fingers or objects, discovering that for instance, 12 can be broken into 3 groups of 4 or 4 groups of 3 or 2 groups of 6, etc. He's also the type of kid to pick the unusual answer (always got me in trouble in school!), is very creative and musically-inclined, and has 100 imaginary robots (that are all different with separate, involved story-lines) who live in a robot city beneath our house.

My husband also does not fit into a clearly defined learning style. He has a visual-spatial career (theatrical lighting designer), but has amazing auditory recall.

[physmom]

What kind of preschool is your son in? Can he move around a lot while he works?  Is he getting enough physical activity there?  Why can't the teacher still have him learn to follow directions with harder materials? It seems to me a child would have a harder time following through on materials if he was bored with them.  Especially for a 4 year old boy who probably has a ton of energy anyways. Is it a logistical problem for the teacher to introduce him to harder material?

[Linda on the move]

Is it possible that you were 2E, both gifted and have special needs in the form of ADHD? Is is possible that your little guy could be headed down the same, difficult path?

I think it can be harder to meet the needs of 2E kids, esp those with behavior problems. One of my kiddos is both on the autism spectrum and gifted, and raising her has been a wild trip.

I'd ask the teacher to not wait for the harder material because you believe it might HELP with the behavior problems. When our minds are fully engaged, most of us are more focused.

The other point is that for some kids, the behavior piece may be way, way behind, and holding off on interesting work until behavior magically falls into place would end up being educational neglect. Not at age 4, but it's a pattern that really can't be allowed to continue throughout a child's educational years.

There's a high schooler at my DDs' alternative school who is super bright and very ADHD. If they had waited for him to mature before starting academics, they'd still be waiting, and the kid is 16. 

I'd also check  out alternative schools where you live.

[b_light]

He is in a Montessori school. I don't think activity level is an issue, as he really isn't a particularly active 4 year old boy. He does have some big peer/social issues (and not just at school).

I notice with him that he doesn't like to do the same thing twice. I can imagine him being shown a material and then no longer wanting that one as he feels like he already "knows" it (wether or not he has actually gotten everything intended from it). And the teacher not willing to move on until he shows mastery. They call him "strong-willed". The teacher has admitted that he's ready for more in reading but she wants to see him complete "cycles" etc. first.

As an at-home example, he enjoyed playing Uno when he was learning numbers at school. Once he could play well, he no longer enjoyed the game. He might play once, but then he's done. Games that are (more) different each time, he is more likely to play longer. I've had my mom mention to me that he "has a short attention span" specifically with Uno as his similarly-aged cousin enjoys playing many, many hands at a time. While my son would prefer to play six different games in that span of time. I can just visualize teachers enjoying my nephew's style over my son's.

I suppose as I refine my original question, I'll state it this way:

Is the educational goal of learning to "follow directions" and to "stick to a task" best taught with simpler materials that a child finds easy or is it best to find a proper "hardness" level that the child finds more interesting? Or, is that catering to the child too much (as, of course there are "easy" things I must do in everyday life)?

[KCMichigan]

Originally Posted by b_light 



My 4 year old's preschool teacher is saying something similar. He's being kept from harder material that she's said he is ready for so he can show "maturity" first.

I'm very curious if holding children back from material they are intellectually ready for is a good technique for learning skills like "following directions", "following through with a task", concentration skills, etc. These are valid skills and my son really does need to learn them (among other social skills that are lagging). He's very inquisitive and enjoys academics.

My son is not the teacher-pleasing type, and has not been identified as gifted (no tests have been administered). I just thought this the best forum to pose this question.

I teach 3-4 yr old class (old 3s young 4s) and I have a little guy much like this. I will say, I do not keep him from harder material- but he is *very* selective in what he wants to do and engage in. He is polite but says  'No thank you I do not want to do that' if it does not deal with the two subjects he loves best. He also has great difficult following directions and not disrupting his peers or wandering away. All these things are age typical, but his are about 10x more than standard for the age. He also does not play with other students as much as wanders around the class or plays by himself. He just is not developmentally ready for long term attention (even his favorite subjects) or joint play.

As much as possible, the co-teacher and I try to make sure he is engaged using methods we know intrigue him- and I do make sure that I offer ?s at his academic level ( when working with shapes- I introduce more complex ones and also challenge him with higher level thinking questions). I make sure that during free play that we discuss what he is doing using rich vocabulary and label his art work with all his favorite subject titles.

I will say he is the youngest and entered past our cut-off date. His behavior reflects his age (he is 14 months younger than our oldest and 8 months than our next youngest)-- which when you are barely 3 and in with 4.5 yr olds it makes a difference.

I would talk to his teacher and find out *why*. Is he not given harder material due to fine motor concerns? Ability to attend? Etc? That will make a big difference.

A child may be able to verbally spell and dictate fantastic stories, but due to fine motor (physical) reasons struggle with writing even a name or letters. Same with attention--- maybe if attention span is a concern. Do a challenging/harder material but break it down into small er bits or allow more physical movement with it so that there is a closer match between cognitive abilities and physical capabilities.

At 4, I think there is a wide variety of 'normal' behaviors and not all kids will travel a tidy path down development (as in cognitive skills may be higher than physical capabilities or social growth). A good preschool teacher will try to meet a kiddo at their level in each subject and not wait for all the levels to be equal- for that may never happen. for some kiddos. Even adults do not have equal level of skills in every area (social, cognitive, gross motor, fine motor, etc), why would we expect our kids to be that way?

ETA: we cross posted. I would be hesitant to work with a teacher that insists that a earlier mastered skill be repeated just to fit a cycle. If your son has mastered a material he should  be able to skip forward until he is learning instead of just doing rote work. The teacher seem inflexible, although I would see if your DS needs some 'backfill' on information- but that can be done as needed not going over everything. examples: My DDs taught themselves to read-- but also are unfamiliar with some terminology if phonics because of it. I would be very very upset if a teacher made them start all over again just to fill in spots and/or be able to show mastery to fill a little required box. It is very simple to give small lessons to fill in knowledge gaps if a student is capable of harder material.

AT 4, he will need to learn to wait in line, some patience, how to share, etc with some ' just a way of life' skills that are boring and yes, needed to be learned- no one LIKES to wait in line, but it is a skill that is needed to be functional in school/life. But academically--- no way, learning should be somewhat exciting and constant, not drudgery and may not always be something of *super * interest but it should be at ability level and made to be as interactive as possible for little ones. Two separate skills ( social and academic) that can both be worked on in the same setting. 

A 4 yr old with reluctance to work independently/follow directions is much different than a 6, 7, 8+ child. At 4, it is developmentally normal---- not so much once a child is past standard 1st/2nd grade age.

Edited by KCMichigan - 4/19/11 at 1:39pm

[whatsnextmom]

I have mixed feelings on this topic. I do feel that students should be given work at their level no matter their behavioral or maturity status. However, we've experienced too many situations where accelerated classes or groups are rendered totally ineffective due to an individual's behavioral and lack of focusing issues. As a teacher, it's incredibly difficult to give accelerated work to a child who is not a truely independant worker. Honestly, I don't think holding kids back from advanced material teaches them these skills but I do understand a teacher's reluctance to move a child ahead when they know they can't give them the individualized attention they need to keep focused and progressed.

That said, it could be that this montessori isn't a good fit for your DS. They are all very different. I can understand their wanting him to show mastery but perhaps the quantity of repetition they are expecting from him is unrealistic. I know it's late in the year for a change, but often, gifted kids do better in play-based preschools where they may have academic options but they can flit from activity to activity and have it be considered totally normal.

[b_light]

Originally Posted by whatsnextmom 

I have mixed feelings on this topic. I do feel that students should be given work at their level no matter their behavioral or maturity status. However, we've experienced too many situations where accelerated classes or groups are rendered totally ineffective due to an individual's behavioral and lack of focusing issues. As a teacher, it's incredibly difficult to give accelerated work to a child who is not a truely independant worker. Honestly, I don't think holding kids back from advanced material teaches them these skills but I do understand a teacher's reluctance to move a child ahead when they know they can't give them the individualized attention they need to keep focused and progressed.

That said, it could be that this montessori isn't a good fit for your DS. They are all very different. I can understand their wanting him to show mastery but perhaps the quantity of repetition they are expecting from him is unrealistic. I know it's late in the year for a change, but often, gifted kids do better in play-based preschools where they may have academic options but they can flit from activity to activity and have it be considered totally normal.

Thanks very much for replying! And to the other teacher as well!

I have mixed feelings myself as well, which was why I posted.

With my limited understanding of Montessori, it actually does seem like a good idea (holding off), in theory. My son is a young 4, in his first year of the three-year cycle of primary Montessori. In theory, there should be plenty of other areas of interest that could help develop his concentration.

Perhaps the statement just set me on alarm because of my schooling (mine was much worse than just the bit I explained in the opening). He has a very different learning environment. And I had vowed since my childhood to stay on top of it...

I'm not interested in talking with the teacher on this, or for changing schools. This isn't his biggest school issue, I wouldn't want to talk about it without significant in-classroom observation, and he's getting a new teacher next year.

[Calliope84]

hahaha I don't know if I need to read more. DH and I both look like this but we both thought it was just our personality types. I'm an INTP and he is an ENFP. According to those the P part tends to make us less than neat.

And here we have another VS learner.... 

[Galatea]

Poor kiddo and poor you - it sounds to me like this experience was not good for you and may not be good for him, either.  If a bright child is not motivated to demonstrate mastery in the way the teachers want, holding him or her back to force it is likely to frustrate the child and prevent him or her from achieving what he or she wants in the areas of choice.

Do you have different educational options (homeschool, etc.)?