7 yo runs off when I try to discipline

[loraxc]

This is a new behavior from my challenging and intense 7yo. When we are somewhere she can get away (outside) and I am speaking to her about her behavior or she thinks she is going to be disciplined, she physically runs off. Today she was heading towards the street, and not looking, either. I magine she would have stopped, but it was freaky. I called to her to stop but she didn't, so I physically grabbed her arms and guided/her along with me inside, as gently as I could, but she is 52# and strong and was yelling "You're hurting me, stop." She was not actually hurt at all, but I'm sure it was not comfortable, and I actually worried the neighbors might call CPS. I have determined now that she is just too big to physically move anymore, but I do not know how to deal with this behavior--it's maddening and scary. It would be one thing in a 2yo but it's quite another in a 7yo, and it troubles me.

BTW, she is not severely disciplined or scared of me or anything. Time-out in her room or occasional "reparations" (make it up to me in some way) or writing out sentences (retro, I know) are the worst it gets around here. She just has a very hot temper and gets very inflamed and upset in the heat of the moment.

[mom2grrls]

BTW, she is not severely disciplined or scared of me or anything. Time-out in her room or occasional "reparations" (make it up to me in some way) or writing out sentences (retro, I know) are the worst it gets around here.>>>>>

Well I probably wouldn't want to write out sentences for "discipline" lol.  Discipline and punishment are 2 different things and she may just want to get away from the punishment, even though it is mild in your eyes.  Have you asked her what's up at another time when you are both calm?

[loraxc]

Have you asked her what's up at another time when you are both calm?

We try to reconnect later after something like this, but it's a good reminder. I think she would just say that she was really upset and didn't want to get in trouble. She is sort of socially/emotionally immature and the sentences I have her write are basically social rules that she needs to remember--"I will repsect adults," "I will be kind to my brother," etc. I know it's a bit unusual these days, but I find this works better than other consequences. It is "logical" in the sense that it relates to what she has done. Also, we find that the focus necessary to sit and write defuses her angry energy in these situations. She is usually calm by the time she is done writing.

[HeliMom]

I'm tired so i might be missing the point but here goes anyway.

I think mom2grrls made a good point about wanting to avoid punishment. Really who doesn't want to avoid punishment? As far as the writing lines thing goes for punishment in your house, what is the purpose of it? Is it to calm her down? Get her to focus on the positive behaviors she should have?  Or  are you trying to find something she doesn't like and spin it in a way that you feel should benefit her?  If it really is about calming down and focusing on the problem or possible solutions, you could try art therapy too. Drawing can be just as meditative, but less punitive.  I'm not saying force her to draw, but  maybe sitting down and focusing on something, music, drawing, writing,  as a way of working through the feelings and destructive impulses in a more pleasant way.

As far as the road thing is concerned, I think she's old enough for her to understand if you explain the whys of grabbing her arm.  It's not just "you weren't listening to me so I'm punishing you" right? You were concerned for her safety. When she didn't respond to you calling you were frightened. You need to know that she heard your fears, so ask her to help you brainstorm how the situation could go so that that you would know she was safe but she felt respected.  She may be able to start helping you come up with solutions for engaging in discipline in the future. Though her ideas when calm might not work out when in the mix of emotions, you two can debrief later and see if you want to continue that strategy, or try a new one. 

[mom2grrls]

She is sort of socially/emotionally immature and the sentences I have her write are basically social rules that she needs to remember--"I will repsect adults," "I will be kind to my brother," etc. I know it's a bit unusual these days, but I find this works better than other consequences. It is "logical" in the sense that it relates to what she has done. Also, we find that the focus necessary to sit and write defuses her angry energy in these situations. She is usually calm by the time she is done writing.>>>>>>

I honestly don't find writing sentences about rules at all a "logical" consequence, it is imposed by you.  There are many other ways she can diffuse her anger, including writing(but about things that she wants to).  Although you had said she is challenging and intense in your first post, in this one you say she is socially/emotionally immature.  Perhaps being behind in these areas makes things harder for her at 7 and leads to the behaviors you're having trouble with.  Rather than trying to come up with punishments or consequences you could focus on helping her in the area(s) you feel she is immature.

[Shami]

Maybe she needs help expressing herself. Maybe she is running away because she doesn't know what to say or how to interact with you after she has misbehaved. Maybe she needs help with using her words to express herself. Her running away is an expression of her feelings at the moment, but not knowing her i don't know what she is feeling/thinking. It seems like an avoidance tactic. What is she avoiding? either she doesn't want to hear what you are going to say or she doesn't want to face that she has done something wrong (embarrassment?)in front of people or she doesn't want to be 'in trouble' or she can't get her words out...just brain storming a bit. I think i would have some spontaneous conversations with her when she is in a good place emotionally. Like maybe, what were you thinking in your head when you ran away from me the other day? Do you have some words to tell me how you were feeling inside. If this happens in front of people, it may just be embarrassment.

[velochic]

I agree with some of the previous posters.  I think the very first thing is to recognize that punishment is not discipline.  I think that some people can "justify" it in their own minds if they call it discipline, but it's just plain old punishment.  Discipline means to teach.  Punishment is meant to make the person suffer.  Your intent is to make your dd suffer for what she has done (yes, I think that writing sentences, which has nothing to do with the behavior, is punishment).  Suffering doesn't really teach a lesson, it just teaches her to not get caught the next time.  This is not gentle discipline.  You'll probably get more gentle reactions if you talk to your dd, gently, not punish her with writing sentences or other punitive punishment.  I don't see any gentleness or understanding in your "discipline".  It's just punishment.  I'd run away from it, too.  In fact, I did.  I know exactly where your dd is coming from.  It teaches you to be sneaky, not responsible.  I don't mean to be severe, but really, unless you understand the difference between discipline and punishment, you're not going to get the results you are looking for.  Good luck!

Edited by velochic - 4/20/11 at 10:12am

[Shami]

I think it would be more helpful to give ideas to the poster rather than harping on her for using sentence writing. She explained earlier why she does this and that she thinks it helps. It's okay to disagree with her but how about some help for new ideas?

[mamazee]

I imagine she would have stopped before reaching the street too. I would have just let my dd run. Shed have to come back at some point. I wouldn't join in the game. I wouldn't have dragged a child that age into the house in those circumstances. My impression is that this was more about a desire for control than about safety.

I also doubt making her write lines is doing anything of value. It's probably just making her more annoyed with you. You two need to get on the same team, and I dont think an arbitrary punishment like writing lines is productive at all as far as that goes.

[Cheshire]

When my DS gets angry we work with him in the moment to help him see what is acceptable to let off steam and what isn't.  Sometimes he gets so angry he can't hear us and in those cases we don't try and point anything out - we just wait until he is calm again.

My DS is almost 7 and he is 85 lbs.  He is tall for his age and there is no way I can physically restrain him without causing damage to myself and/or him.  If he was running toward the street I would have done something because I know he would have kept on going.  I won't risk his life.  But, if he was just getting away, like he does every now and then in the house, I let him have his time to calm down.  If I feel it was disrespectful when he decides to get away then we talk about that later, too.  I ask how he would have felt if he was trying to tell me something and all of a sudden I just turned around and walked off.  Once he's calm he is very receptive to the conversation.  Even though sometimes it seems to take serious repetition he eventually gets it - whatever it is at the moment.

I think helping her talk about what she was feeling is a good jumping off point.  I'd acknowledge her feelings are valid and real but her actions are not acceptable.  Then, talk about what would be acceptable.  Let her brainstorm and don't nix anything until after you've both brainstormed for a while.  Then discuss what would work and wouldn't work.  I bet there are plenty of things she'll throw out there and then when she looks at them again she'll even know what will work and what won't.  We seem to get the best responses that work the longest if it is an idea he thought of on his own.

Recently he got in trouble and I told him I was disappointed in a decision he had made.  I didn't make a big deal out of it and I told him I was going to have to think about it to figure out what a good resolution would be.  He came to me a little later and said he felt really bad about it when he was caught.  I told him that feeling was a great thing - it was his conscience telling him he had done something wrong.  I told him he needed to learn to listen to that part of his brain when he was actually doing something - if it felt wrong it probably was.  Then, later in the evening DH and I had figured out a good plan and explained to DS what his discipline would be.  He fussed a little about it but then felt it was fair.  I could have blown up and punished right off the bat but instead I gave myself time to formulate (and let my anger go) and it gave him time to really thing about it as well.

It can be tough!  Best wishes!

[loraxc]

Thanks, Shami. Guys, I don't think the sentences have anything to do with this. That's a recent innovation and I strongly suspect she would say she prefers it to other consequences we have tried. It is punishment, I guess, but so is having X privilege taken away or a time-out or whatever. I think there is room for consequences in GD, and I don't think writing sentences is "punitive" more than taking away privileges or time-outs or whatever, all of which are advocated and discussed here. We did not arrive at this option lightly and I honestly do feel it is a better choice than anything else.

You'll probably get more gentle reactions if you talk to your dd, gently, not punish her with writing sentences or other punitive punishment.

I wonder if you really think I've never tried this? Good grief. Of course I have. However, when she is screaming in my face about how she won't share with her brother (all that was requested was that she let him know when she was done with the swing), gentle talking is not really what's called for, IMO.

What is she avoiding? either she doesn't want to hear what you are going to say or she doesn't want to face that she has done something wrong (embarrassment?)in front of people or she doesn't want to be 'in trouble' or she can't get her words out...just brain storming a bit. I think i would have some spontaneous conversations with her when she is in a good place emotionally. Like maybe, what were you thinking in your head when you ran away from me the other day? Do you have some words to tell me how you were feeling inside.

I don't think it's embarrassment, but she does get very agitated when she thinks she is "in trouble" (with anyone--this is not limited to me) and has a hard time hearing anything when upset. She also will be very argumentative and confrontational, yelling "No, I didn't!" and so on. Basically, she has a short fuse and will do and say some irrational things in the heat of the moment, running away being a new one. After she has cooled down, though, she will easily say that what she did wasn't great and why. In fact, this happened later in the evening--she said she understood how her brother must have felt because there is a kid at school who hogs the swings, and seemed genuinely sorry.

On reflection, maybe what I need is some suggestions on how to handle her in the moment when she is like this. Again, discussion of any kind is a total failure when she is like this--she will yell back and be hostile, no matter what the approach is ("You seem very angry," whatever, none of it works), and this is hard to stay calm around. In the past we have sent her to her room to calm down--in fact, that is what I was asking her to do when she ran off. But even though this does work, she does perceive it negatively in the heat of the moment. Maybe I need to make a plan with her for this kind of "red zone" incident. I do not want to teach her that this behavior is okay, but neither do I want to escalate it.

ETA: Cheshire, we cross-posted. Thanks--your post was helpful. I am going to do this:

I'd acknowledge her feelings are valid and real but her actions are not acceptable. Then, talk about what would be acceptable. Let her brainstorm and don't nix anything until after you've both brainstormed for a while. Then discuss what would work and wouldn't work. I bet there are plenty of things she'll throw out there and then when she looks at them again she'll even know what will work and what won't. We seem to get the best responses that work the longest if it is an idea he thought of on his own.

[lksuperior]

Hi, loraxc. I feel for you. My 6-year-old son does the same thing. When he knows he's done something wrong, he'll often walk away from me or my husband, run really quickly and hide... There are several variations. My husband's gut reaction was that we should start punishing our son if he runs off when we're trying to talk. We don't. Instead, my husband had a talk with my son. My husband waited until my son was calm. (Trying to talk about the running/walking away behavior while son is running or walking away tends to make the situation worse.) My husband explained to my son that we understand that he's feeling bad right after he's done something wrong and doesn't want to talk but that running away is unacceptable behavior. Then, he asked my son what my son thought we could do to help him learn to work through problems and not run away. My son suggested taking away 10 cents of his allowance each time he runs/walks away. We pretty much never punish our kids, and taking away allowance money is punishment. But, given that we've tried several other things -- talking to son about why behavior is unacceptable, explaining what will happen when he stays and talks through what he's done wrong, etc. -- we decided to give it a try. Our son tested the system right away. When he started walking away, I said kind of loudly and frantically: "your walking away. your not listening. you're going to loose 10 cents." The first attempt was not perfectly executed on either side. My son lost 10 cents. The next time, I calmly said: "your not listening. Your walking away." Son continued to walk away and lost 10 cents. I was starting to feel serious doubts about this new system. I was not happy about setting a punishment precedent. My son understood the system and wasn't getting upset about the punishment. I was not sure whether he would be able to change this behavior that had become like a reflex to him. However, the next time he started walking away, I said calmly: "You're walking away," and right away he walked back to me and talked calmly about whatever misbehavior I was concerned with. The next time, it seemed to work again. We've gone a week now without any walking/running away incidents. I'm do not believe that this problem is solved, but I found the approach of having him help figure out how to end the problematic behavior very helpful. 

Good luck! I've definitely seen this behavior in my own son under circumstances when parents are not yelling or punishing. The kid is just feeling bad about what he's done and doesn't want to have to think about his misbehavior.

[mom2grrls]

On reflection, maybe what I need is some suggestions on how to handle her in the moment when she is like this.>>>>>>

Perhaps instead of focusing on how to handle her focus on how you will handle yourself and what she can do, brainstorming together.  It may take awhile but if you're working together I bet the end result will be better.  If she feels overwhelmed it could be ok for her to walk/run away but set a limit(you wouldn't want her to run more than 2 houses down the street for example).   Then you agree to discuss the situation in 10 mins or whatever works.

[Marsupialmom]

My nephew did this!!  He did this because once he came back my aunt had forgotten why he ran off and he would go uncorrected.

It didn't work with my mom and he knew it.  My mom would write down why he ran off and when he decided to come back she discipline him them.  He has been in and out of prison.  Even though my mom was/is not the best he has thanked her for trying.  

I agree with how she handled it.  She sat down and waited for him to come back.  She had already established she would not chase him, and every time he ran off he punishment would be doubled.  

He tested her a few times.  He finally stopped the crap when my mom took his bike wheel off and chained it up for two days.  

My mom was calm. cool, and collect.  She was firm if you do run off  Y will happen and she did it.  Running off always made things worse not better.  My mom was VERY VERY consistent and predictable with her discipline.  He needed the if you do X - Y will occur and he actually needed Y to occur.  The time we had him he went from being a nightmare to a good kid. He didn't need ADD meds and his grades improved.  Then my aunt and her dh were moved and took him back.  With in months he was on ADD meds and monster unless my mom was around.  

I remember watching him one day.  He ran into clean laundry on a line.  He started to run but came back and admitted his mistake.  Then he was surprised when my mom only showed him how to fix his mistake, wash laundry.  She told him thanks for being a "responcible" person and admitting mistakes.  He learned he got in less trouble and more respect buy admitting to things.  Well with my mom. 

[Bird Girl]

I think sentences are a great way of offering a consequence for behavior, and they provide a quick and logical way to solve the running-off problem--if she runs off, her sentences will be doubled. You should be able to remind her quickly, and hopefully that would be enough of a clue that she should shut off the temper and start acting in her own best interest. If not, well, she may have to write a LOT of sentences a couple of times...but that won't be the end of the world.

My DD is eight, and she can be pretty hot-headed, too. I may try the sentences myself!

[MusicianDad]

On the writing lines... It doesn't work... It turns into a mindless action so fast that the only memorizing that is going on is her hand being able to make the sentence without her thinking about it until she's done. At least that was my experience when I was told to write lines by that one teacher I had.

[FiveLittleMonkeys]

I also have my children write lines.  However, when lines are assigned, the two of us come up with it together - which takes the mindlessness out of it.  If I assign the words, it's mindless.  If they come up with the words in a thoughtful manner, reflecting on what they did and what they can do to make better choices next time, it's not.

They do end up writing longer sentences with this approach, but we compensate for that by writing fewer.  

[loraxc]

However, when lines are assigned, the two of us come up with it together - which takes the mindlessness out of it.

I like this a lot! Great idea.

We also have a short list of basic rules (these are things like "Use kind words and a kind voice") that she keeps in her room. Anyway, maybe we will work on this list to make it more collaborative. We also have a "How to apologize" addendum to this list. Believe it or not, these do seem helpful for our bright, literal, but not socially skilled child.

I will say that much of the point of writing lines is to get her head out of that space. One could accomplish this in other ways--reading also works--but I do feel like when she really messes up and is rude and disrespectful, it would be weird to just say "Okay, go off and read a book." Sometimes I want something mildly punitive, even if much of the actual point is for her to shift gears and get out of meltdown mode.

[treeoflife3]

Does she have a journal?  If writing lines helps her calm down so that the two of you can actually talk about what happened (and I like the ideas of discussing ways of dealing with things in the moment with her and whatnot when things are calm or just letting her do her thing and waiting til she is back and ready to take the discipline) I wonder if along with the lines, asking her to write about what happened and how she feels and how she thinks you feel and perhaps how she can handle things better in the future might help her as well.  I'd let her write whatever she wants without having to share with you what she wrote (so private writing) even though you ask her to write about something specific (so don't check that she follows what you asked for)  and every so often, ask her to read what she has written in the past.

I know that it really helped me to write about my feelings on certain events and it DID help me reflect and make better choices as I as older.  I also really appreciated that it was my own private space.  One time my mom saw an entry that I started with 'I hate my mom' and she just said to me it was okay for me to write about my own feelings and have that private space, giving me permission to be angry with her and use words that might not be so nice.  I liked that I didn't have to follow rules in my writing.

I'm not saying take away the lines since I know you want it to reinforce what you want to teach her (and I really like having her help you decide on the line idea... that seems like it might work better since she is forced to reflect before writing) but maybe in addition to that asking her to just write about the events and feelings might help her slowly stop blowing up and correct herself a bit in the moment, especially if she doesn't have to show you what she writes and can have the freedom to just be angry til it tapers out.

[loraxc]

Thanks, treeoflife--I like that idea too!