encouraging manners (i.e., 'hello and goodbye) with VERY shy (possibly selectively mute) 3 yr old

[mom2lucy]

DD1 just turned 3 a couple months ago and has always been extremely quiet around people other than family.  She gets a blank look everytime a cashier talks to her and says very little even to her regular friends in playgroup.  She takes a long time to warm up to situations, even with her grandparents (who she is very close to and sees several times a week).

I've never forced her to speak or even made a big deal about it, but I'm starting to feel the need to encourage her to begin using manners consistently, particularly hello and goodbye.  She is really good about asking for things in a polite way and saying please and thank you, but transitions are when I notice the most anxiety in her and is when she really clams up and retreats until she eases into the situation.

I feel strongly that respect is something that should be taught at an early age and a trait I obviously want my girls to have.  When her grandparents come in the house or we go to their house and they greet her I think it's courteous and respectful to reciprocate the greeting.  I can stand there until my face turns blue asking her to please say hello but she never says anything. 

How do I handle this and how do you encourage/teach respectful behaviors to young children?  Thank you so much for any advise!!

[~Adorkable~]

hmm i can see wanting her to say "please" and "thank you" in terms of learning manners, but "hello" and "goodbye" just dont feel like manners to me, they seem like formalities of culture, i would be way more relaxed about my kid using them if they were shy.   to clarify are you talking about her responding when other folks say those things directly to her?

[Tjej]

I expected my similar child to wave.  I reminded her before we got to the situations to "share your smiles" and that she could wave to say hello and goodbye.  It worked quite well - she was friendly and polite, but it didn't force her to speak when she just was too frozen to do it. 

I would sometimes help her get waving if she needed the help.

Tjej

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by mom2lucy 
 transitions are when I notice the most anxiety in her and is when she really clams up and retreats until she eases into the situation.

I feel strongly that respect is something that should be taught at an early age

My answer is very jaded by the fact that I have a DD who has Asperger's and a social anxiety disorder.

Anxiety around transitions and retreating are NOT signs of disrespect. Rather, the respect should be coming from the adults -- respect for her need for time for transitions and chance to ease in them.

Peace

[Spring Lily]

I think 3 is very young to expect her to override her own feelings for the sake of societal niceties.

Here's what I worry about: forcing her to say hello when she is uncomfortable doing so is teaching her to ignore her instincts. I assume at 3 that she's aware you say hello and goodbye to people, so it's not that you're trying to teach her that. You already got that message across. The real lessons are that being "shy" is a bad thing, not listening to your instincts is a good thing, and honoring her "shy" feelings is something to feel shameful about (because I'm sure she can read your disappointment/frustration/annoyance).

Two of my children are this way too--I don't call them shy though. I'd say they are cautious and take a while to warm up to new people and situations. I think "shy" has too many negative connotations in our culture. I prompt them to say hello or goodbye etc but if they aren't comfortable, we just move on and don't make a big deal out of it. Because of that my oldest is now able to smile, wave, and occasionally say hello when we're in, say, the grocery store. Some of it is maturity and some of it is confidence because we didn't turn it into a big power struggle. DD's preschool teacher does not expect that 3 year olds will even look adults in the eye, much less speak to them, because that is normal for that stage of development.

I don't want to sound too harsh here, this is an issue close to my heart with my own kids. I just want to show you another way of looking at this and suggest that perhaps your daughter is doing just fine for her age--but you should reconsider some of your expectations. If her grandparents are upset by this, maybe you could find other ways of helping her, like having her draw them pictures to give them when they come visit, instead of having to say hello right away. Try to find a happy medium.

[MusicianDad]

The best way to teach respect is to model it. The most respectful thing you can do right now is acknowledge that she is shy and has to warm up before speaking to people and not push her into doing something she is not comfortable with. The best thing you can do for her is let her overcome her shyness in her own time. It may take years for her to learn how to master it, but trying to get her to overcome it before she's ready will only make it take longer.

[syn_ack89]

Originally Posted by Tjej 

I expected my similar child to wave.  I reminded her before we got to the situations to "share your smiles" and that she could wave to say hello and goodbye.  It worked quite well - she was friendly and polite, but it didn't force her to speak when she just was too frozen to do it. 

I would sometimes help her get waving if she needed the help.

Tjej

Great suggestion!

I was painfully shy and the "forcing" interaction just made it worse for me.

[lalaland42]

I have a similar child, who is now 6, and I agree with the waving suggestion. You might also ask her, rather than telling her, what she feels comfortable with doing. Lots of 3 year olds are shy around strangers and that is perfectly OK. If the cashier or whoever doesn't understand the kid hiding behind mommy's legs is shy, that is their problem. For manners with mom and/or dad, I modeled it until recently and now I gently prompt "what do we say" when a stranger gives her a cookie or something.

[mom2lucy]

Thank you so much for the replies!  I didn't want to go into it in the OP, but the whole reason for this question is because of the pressure I've been getting from my parents regarding the issue of respect and giving a proper greeting.  They've always been totally supportive of the way we parent DD (AP), but for some reason "respect" is a huge issue for them.  My dad is a retired state trooper and has seen so many people that have no respect for others and he feels it's very important to acknowlege adults, especially family, with a poper greeting.

I feel exactly the same way as all of you suggested-not forcing her, asking her to wave, and being respectful of HER and honoring her boundaries.  Thank you so so much for this reinforcement that I'm doing the right thing by encouraging (but not forcing) her to wave hello, and respecting her space.

My parents have said that if we don't get her saying hello, etc., now that when she gets to school she will have a hard time making friends and being seen as a friendly, polite person.  I definitely worry about her going to school if she is still so anxious around new situations, but it's something that's not for a couple years (we're doing a co-op preschool in the fall), and I have faith that she will be much better by then.

So thank you so much, and any other suggestions are greatly appreciated!

[mamalisa]

My dd was the same way until she was about 3 1/2.  Then suddenly one day she just blossomed into this amazing outgoing social butterfly of a child.  I never pushed her, always offered to be the person that did her greetings and thank yous for her.   One day she was just ready to talk to people, just like that.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by mom2lucy 

Thank you so much for the replies!  I didn't want to go into it in the OP, but the whole reason for this question is because of the pressure I've been getting from my parents regarding the issue of respect and giving a proper greeting.  They've always been totally supportive of the way we parent DD (AP), but for some reason "respect" is a huge issue for them.  My dad is a retired state trooper and has seen so many people that have no respect for others and he feels it's very important to acknowlege adults, especially family, with a poper greeting.

I feel exactly the same way as all of you suggested-not forcing her, asking her to wave, and being respectful of HER and honoring her boundaries.  Thank you so so much for this reinforcement that I'm doing the right thing by encouraging (but not forcing) her to wave hello, and respecting her space.

My parents have said that if we don't get her saying hello, etc., now that when she gets to school she will have a hard time making friends and being seen as a friendly, polite person.  I definitely worry about her going to school if she is still so anxious around new situations, but it's something that's not for a couple years (we're doing a co-op preschool in the fall), and I have faith that she will be much better by then.

So thank you so much, and any other suggestions are greatly appreciated!

My dd1 was much like your daughter. She wasn't good with "hello" and "goodbye", even worse with "please" and "thank you" and more-or-less refused to say "I'm sorry" about anything (she meant it if she said it, but when she knew she'd screwed up, she'd become almost paralyzed with embarrassment and humiliation and could barely even speak - in a whisper - to me).

I won't lie. It took a long time to work through this stuff. I didn't put pressure on her in front of other people. I'd simply say "oh, thank you" or "oh, look, dd1 - grandma's here!" and let her take it from there. And, now she's almost 8. She's homeschooled, not in public school, and she's still socially anxious (and just to get it out of the way, that's not because she's homeschooled - dh and I both did public school all the way through, and we both have issues with social anxiety - mine got steadily worse from about 5th grade until grad), but she's learned. She started ballet with a new group of classmates in September, and was terrified when she realized that she didn't know any of them. But, she's smile at the girl next to her when the teacher said something funny, and nod or say "hi" to the girl in front of/behind her at the barre, or beside her on the floor. And, she actually makes friends relatively easily and fairly steadily. She's got a very, very good friend from ballet, and several good friends in our complex, and a couple good friends from the homeschooling community, as well. As far as I can tell, she's considered friendly and polite by the adults she interacts with, and other kids really like her.

My approach really was to talk to her about these things "off camera", and then just model appropriate responses and/or give her easy openings to respond to, when we were in the moment. I've been very lucky, in that all the grandparents have been very patient and understanding. I expected that with my parents, as we've always been pretty laidback, but my in-laws are sticklers for formal manners and such, and I was concerned there'd by flack, but there hasn't been.

I hope your parents back off, OP. There's no one right way to teach manners and courtesy, and I think showing and modelling it is probably the key is most cases. (Even families where the manners are expected/demanded usually also model them, yk? And, ime, the kids who are told to say "please" and "thank you", but whose parents don't do so themselves generally don't pick up good manners. I'm inclined to think it's primarily the modeling.)

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by mom2lucy 

 They've always been totally supportive of the way we parent DD (AP), but for some reason "respect" is a huge issue for them.  My dad is a retired state trooper and has seen so many people that have no respect for others and he feels it's very important to acknowlege adults, especially family, with a poper greeting.

....My parents have said that if we don't get her saying hello, etc., now that when she gets to school she will have a hard time making friends and being seen as a friendly, polite person.

I think that your problem is with your parents, and not with your child. She isn't being disrespectful, she's anxious. It's not the same thing. Go to bat for her and tell you State Trooper Daddy to back off. She needs you to stick up for her. You do not need your parents permission to be kind to your child.

Second, she may or may not have an easy time making friends at school. It's hard to say. My DD is always seen as a polite person, just a very quiet one. She isn't usually seen as friendly, though other kids tend to like her after they get to know her. She's very grounded and a great listener. (She's 14 now). She is actually far more respectful than most kids her age, and always has been. Partly because she is so sensitive, she easily picks up on what others are feeling. There are strengths that go along with being sensitive, though being the life of the party isn't necessarily one of them.

But I don't think that you can shame your child's basic personality out of them and force them to be a social butterfly. 

[farmheart]

We always tell our selectively shy child if she doesn't feel like talking to at least smile! especially since it is all the sweet elderly people at our church that we are usually talking to her. Strangers I wouldn't really worry about

[scottishmommy]

I would ask her to smile and wave. Just make sure that you make an effort to be courteous in her place. My DHs nieces and nephews were never taught or encouraged to say hello and goodbye and I have to say, it's a little unnerving. When we visit, they just stare at us, no smiles, no hello, nothing. They aren't shy, however, just not particularly well mannered. If they were super shy I wouldn't think anything of it, I'd just let them get comfortable with me before I tried to engage them in any way.

[LynnS6]

Yep, waving and nonverbal responses are the way to go. That's what we did with our slow to warm up, somewhat socially anxious kid. At 3, I would simply ask "can you wave to say hi/bye?" and leave it at that. At 4-5, I started explaining to ds that when you didn't greet your friends and family, they would think you were mad at them or that you didn't like them. By 4-5, he was able to respond verbally to close friends/family. By 6 he was able to say hello or goodbye to less familiar people. I would argue that allowing him his space made it easier for him, rather than harder. He's still not the most social kid. He's not striking up conversations with new kids, but he responds positively to other kids' overtures (usually, and with a a little coaching sometimes), and he's well liked. His teachers find him very respectful.

Originally Posted by Spring Lily 

I think 3 is very young to expect her to override her own feelings for the sake of societal niceties.

Here's what I worry about: forcing her to say hello when she is uncomfortable doing so is teaching her to ignore her instincts. I assume at 3 that she's aware you say hello and goodbye to people, so it's not that you're trying to teach her that. You already got that message across. The real lessons are that being "shy" is a bad thing, not listening to your instincts is a good thing, and honoring her "shy" feelings is something to feel shameful about (because I'm sure she can read your disappointment/frustration/annoyance).

Two of my children are this way too--I don't call them shy though. I'd say they are cautious and take a while to warm up to new people and situations. I think "shy" has too many negative connotations in our culture. I prompt them to say hello or goodbye etc but if they aren't comfortable, we just move on and don't make a big deal out of it. Because of that my oldest is now able to smile, wave, and occasionally say hello when we're in, say, the grocery store. Some of it is maturity and some of it is confidence because we didn't turn it into a big power struggle. DD's preschool teacher does not expect that 3 year olds will even look adults in the eye, much less speak to them, because that is normal for that stage of development.

Yes, I agree completely. I was very careful not to label ds as shy if I could help it. Instead, I'd say: "He takes a while to warm up." "He's a little quiet in new situations." "He likes to observe for a while before taking part." These are all accurate descriptions, and really help. I asked him a few months ago (when the topic of being shy came up in something we were reading/talking about) whether he was 'shy' and he said 'no'.

Another reason to avoid the term shy is that it's a permanent personality trait. You can't fix being shy. Being slow to warm up means that you're not comfortable at first, but you'll get there.
 

Originally Posted by mom2lucy 

My parents have said that if we don't get her saying hello, etc., now that when she gets to school she will have a hard time making friends and being seen as a friendly, polite person.  I definitely worry about her going to school if she is still so anxious around new situations, but it's something that's not for a couple years (we're doing a co-op preschool in the fall), and I have faith that she will be much better by then.

Tell your dad to take a deep breath and remember that she's three!  Tell him that if she's still not acknowledging him when your dd is 10, then he can start to pressure you. Remind him, if you need to, of all the women he probably saw who were abused/making poor decisions because they didn't have any self respect. Explain that you're teaching her to honor her boundaries and develop her intrapersonal strength.

Much of this will come with age and maturity. My sister and her family just left after being here for Easter dinner. When ds was 2, he avoided my sister (she's a bit loud and can be in your face). I don't think he said hello to much of anyone. Today, he gave her a big hug when she arrived and when she left. When we're at church, he'll look people in the eye and give them a handshake of peace. He's been able to do this for 2-3 years.

We did have to give one of my nephews some remedial social training when he was about 12-13 (his parents were in on it) because when he came over to my parents house, he'd slip down into the basement to play without saying hello. So, we'd go down, bring him up, ask him to say hello to everyone and then let him go back down to the basement to play. The nephew is now in his mid-late 20s and in a profession where social skills and respect are very much needed. He's got both. He was just needed a bit of help to see how his actions were being interpreted. But age 12 was a much more appropriate age than age 3 for that lesson.

[mom2lucy]

LynnS6, thank you for putting the age timeline in perspective, and I agree with everything you (and PP said).  I don't describe her as shy, for all the reasons mentioned, but needed a concise title for the thread.  The funny thing is that sometimes she's super eager to get talking and she'll go right into conversation without saying hello (which I think it totally normal at her age), and I do encourage her to return a greeting, and she will maybe half the time.  Other times I'll try to get her to wave and she'll just freeze up and not move at all.  I could probably sit there with her for an hour asking her to wave and she absolutely won't.  So how long do I wait before just dropping it and moving on?  I defintely don't want to make such an issue of this because I truly feel it will make it worse, not better, but I obviously want to coach her on general courtesy, manners, etc.  I'm not big on forcing kids to do things that they're not into or ready for, as I do believe that with the proper modeling and environment they will do things on their own time, but this whole issue just got me questioning what I'm doing and I wanted some input from other moms.  Thanks so much for the replies, I've read them over and over and am planning on talking to my parents about it today.

[Magali]

Tell your dad to take a deep breath and remember that she's three!  Tell him that if she's still not acknowledging him when your dd is 10, then he can start to pressure you. Remind him, if you need to, of all the women he probably saw who were abused/making poor decisions because they didn't have any self respect. Explain that you're teaching her to honor her boundaries and develop her intrapersonal strength.

Yes, yes, yes! 

[earthworm]

I think I'm basically just repeating everyone else, but my son was very much like that at 3. As he got closer to 4, he became way more comfortable with that kind of thing, though he is still pretty slow to warm up in certain situations. Talking to him about it before we got somewhere (as long as he wasn't obviously nervous or irritable) helped a good bit, but of course he still didn't say anything 100% of the time. Having conversations about it during our quiet time right before bed, when it was just me and him, was helpful as well. Again, he didn't start saying those things right away, but I think it laid a foundation of understanding. He gains a lot by reading books too, so I tried to find books that had basic conversations with greetings, etc at the library.

What I gathered from talking to him was that he REALLY wanted to know what he was supposed to say and to be able to say it but he also REALLY wanted it to be OK if he couldn't remember or felt like he couldn't say it. Lately (he's just 4 now), you can see the look of pride on his face when he remembers to say "thank you" or "please." If anything was said to him in the moment, he was likely to respond with hiding behind me even more or a very 3 year old "nooooo!" which of course led even more tsk-tsking about manners from relatives.

Our in-laws are very into "manners" as well. I think with a shy kid (or probably any kid!), you just have to do your best to ignore that pressure--easier said than done, I know-- and be very gentle. Perhaps my view is colored by the fact that I have social anxiety and have had it since I was a kid, but I absolutely agree with the poster that said the respect should be coming from the adults in these kinds of situations.

Good luck!

[journeymom]

Lots of great advice here.  I'll just add that I think your State Trooper Dad isn't wrong in principle.  Not counting social anxieties, I think it's rude when a person doesn't at least acknowledge that someone said 'hello' or whatnot.  And really, how do you get comfortable with putting yourself out there, to say 'hello', or at least smile and nod? Repetition and practice.   In consideration of the other person's feelings you put up with some discomfort, and mumble 'hello' back at them.

When I started going for walks in the neighborhood it took me a while to get comfortable saying 'hi' back when fellow walkers would say hi to me.  Actually I still choke and end up smiling instead. That'll have to do.

But a three year old? Have a little patience.

[mom2lucy]

Again, thanks for so many insightful and thoughtful replies.  I've read and re-read this thread many times.  i talked with my parents tonight and they are the ones who actually suggested that they may have been a little out of line.  After really paying attention to DD over the weekend while we were there at Easter, my dad sees what I'm talking about and has agreed to drop the issue.  of course, it's still important to model and encourage her to say/wave hello, but I think everyone feels a huge weight off our shoulders and a new way of looking at the situation. 

i really appreciate the personal stories that you all gave because it has affirmed that I'm doing the right thing and has actually made my bond with DD even stronger as I feel a whole new level of empathy and compassion for her.

Thanks again so much!!