Spin-off discussion about Chlorine Dioxide/MMS and the eradication of disease - Page 2

[Jugs]

Is a little light-hearted humor unwelcome here?

Silvermoon, the point that was being made is that buying supplements is buying pharmaceutical products. They may not be vaccines, but they are produced by the same industry. I feel like you are assuming that all vaxers are getting every vaccine and not using any natural methods, as if the two are mutually exclusive . The government may not be promoting specific vitamins, but they are promoting eating a well-balanced diet to ensure adequate nutrition and vitamin intake, as a healthy body is more resistant to disease. I'm not sure what you mean by "no one" promoting supplements; I see advertisements for individual vitamins, fish oils, immunity-boosters, etc on TV and in magazines all the time. They have generic statements like "promotes cardiovascular health" or "supports the immune system" because they cannot advertise their products as preventing or alleviating illness without FDA approval to do so; they are regulated as dietary supplements, not drugs. And FWIW, the FDA has extensive information on the benefits of dietary supplements, and NIH has entire CAM division, devoted exclusively to herbal remedies and supplements.

[Ldavis24]

hmm am I the only one who doesn't particularly care what the government "promotes" or doesn't "promote"??

I am a grownup, the government tends to be the last place I look for suggestions on how  to live my life. I can read, so I do just that...

IMO a lot of "supplements" are BS, I think a lot of vaccines are pointless, I think it is pretty silly if someone really believes that pharmaceutical companies who make vaccines don't have their hands in "supplement" productions, there is so much money there. I find myself inundated with ads etc for this or that vitamin...look how well the fish oil supplement is doing...5 years ago nobody really knew about that and now everyone seems to be taking them...Big pharma is Big supplement... is there really an argument over that or am I being stupid and missing some larger point here?

[Chamomile Girl]

The main difference here is that most supplements cannot be patented (although attempts have been made with turmeric for example). So they will never be the cash cow that vaccines or medications like viagra are, and are thus of less interest to Big Pharma.

The thing that disturbs me about vitamin supplements is that they are often used by well meaning people as a panacea. Because they are "natural". But they actually are not for the most part. A laboratory manufactured nutrient (say Vit C) made in China with little oversight (as most vitamins are) is no better for you than laboratory manufactured anything else IMO. That is not to say that nutrition does not matter..it is central to health. But it is access to good healthy food that is going to make the biggest difference.

Herbs on the other hand can be very helpful. But the less processed the better...they are basically food. But again, I hate the whole "superfood" label because I would rather not look at my food through the lens of a drug, thank you.

Anyhoo...Hopefully I will have time to come back to comment on some of the other issues here...

[JMJ]

I think that the issue is the research.  If "Big Pharma" does a study that shows that the drug they developed is effective in treating something, because they have a patent on that drug, they are the only ones who can sell that drug for many years.  If they do a study on how Vitamin D works just as well as their flu shot, they don't have as much to gain for it because anybody can make a Vitamin D supplement, so the profits for Vitamin D supplements will be shared amongst many companies, not just the company that sponsored the study.

It's not that there is no money in selling Vitamins.  It's that there's not as much money going to all one place to pay off the research.  For this reason, it's hard to get a lot of good quality, scientific, double-blind, large sample size, peer-reviewed studies published in major journals showing the positive effects of taking xyz supplement.  There have been some high-profile studies on Vitamin D recently that have gotten a lot of press and caused changes in major medical associations' recommendations concerning Vitamin D, but this has not been the case with a lot of other nutrients.

I think that it is important to remember, both for vaccines and supplements, that just because the large, controlled scientific studies are not out there to show their benefits/risks does not mean that it is or is not worth it.  It's very difficult for us as parents sometimes, to dig through extravagant claims, shoddy research, anecdotal evidence, and naysayers in order to attempt to find truth.

[Calm]

I've been coming to MDC for many years.  I've interacted in intimate ways with a ton of members here (in the past), some I've met and I had to travel 10 thousand miles to do so.  I'm not some fly in spammer.  I don't sell anything.  But I have had a life altering experience with MMS.   Two of my friends also traveled with Jim to Haiti and Africa because they simply couldn't believe it and wanted to see it with their own eyes.  This isn't some distant internet theory to me.  I do find it difficult to stay quiet, you would too if all this happened to you.  

And no, the doctors didn't give a shizer what their AIDS patients said about MMS.  In fact, one of them never went back to their doctor, the other two found the doctors just wanted to give them more drugs "just in case", even though they told them the drugs made them sick to begin with.  The doctors don't care.  The media doesn't care.  No one cares but the mothers of those children who are being saved, right now, while we sit here and debate if those mothers even exist.  

It would make me laugh if it wasn't so friggin' tragic.  

I can't respond on this topic further here, I'll take the issue to the thread but right now I have to get breakky for the kids. 

Edited by Calm - 5/3/11 at 3:07am

[Ldavis24]

Originally Posted by Calm 

I've been coming to MDC for many years.  I've interacted in intimate ways with a ton of members here (in the past), some I've met and I had to travel 10 thousand miles to do so.  I'm not some fly in spammer.  I don't sell anything.  But I have had a life altering experience with MMS.   Two of my friends also traveled with Jim to Haiti and Africa because they simply couldn't believe it and wanted to see it with their own eyes.  This isn't some distant internet theory to me.  I do find it difficult to stay quiet, you would too if all this happened to you.  

And no, the doctors didn't give a shizer that MMS cured their patients of AIDS.  In fact, one of them never went back to their doctor, the other two found the doctors just wanted to give them more drugs "just in case", even though they told them the drugs made them sick to begin with.  The doctors don't care.  The media doesn't care.  No one cares but the mothers of those children who are being saved, right now, while we sit here and debate if those mothers even exist.  

It would make me laugh if it wasn't so friggin' tragic.  

I can't respond on this topic further here, I'll take the issue to the thread but right now I have to get breakky for the kids. 

oh please...if you ever actually open this thread instead of randomly blurting out how your "cure" has saved thousands and thousands of people, I will happily jump into the discussion but since that thread appears to never actually occur why don't you stop schilling for that product on other people's threads. You have enough time to post the same thing over and over again on other vax threads but never the time to open a thread specifically about MMS so apologies if I take your claims even less seriously than I had  before.
 

[WildKingdom]

Originally Posted by Calm 

I've been coming to MDC for many years.  I've interacted in intimate ways with a ton of members here (in the past), some I've met and I had to travel 10 thousand miles to do so.  I'm not some fly in spammer.  I don't sell anything.  But I have had a life altering experience with MMS.   Two of my friends also traveled with Jim to Haiti and Africa because they simply couldn't believe it and wanted to see it with their own eyes.  This isn't some distant internet theory to me.  I do find it difficult to stay quiet, you would too if all this happened to you.  

And no, the doctors didn't give a shizer that MMS cured their patients of AIDS.  In fact, one of them never went back to their doctor, the other two found the doctors just wanted to give them more drugs "just in case", even though they told them the drugs made them sick to begin with.  The doctors don't care.  The media doesn't care.  No one cares but the mothers of those children who are being saved, right now, while we sit here and debate if those mothers even exist.  

It would make me laugh if it wasn't so friggin' tragic.  

I can't respond on this topic further here, I'll take the issue to the thread but right now I have to get breakky for the kids. 

Whatever. WHATEVER. If one of my AIDS patients was cured I'd be crying with joy. I'd be calling the media and writing it up in journals. For you to say that doctors don't care- well you can you know what yourself. How DARE you say that doctors don't care about seeing their patients cured. How DARE you. I just have no words.

[Calm]

Originally Posted by WildKingdom 

Originally Posted by Calm 

I've been coming to MDC for many years.  I've interacted in intimate ways with a ton of members here (in the past), some I've met and I had to travel 10 thousand miles to do so.  I'm not some fly in spammer.  I don't sell anything.  But I have had a life altering experience with MMS.   Two of my friends also traveled with Jim to Haiti and Africa because they simply couldn't believe it and wanted to see it with their own eyes.  This isn't some distant internet theory to me.  I do find it difficult to stay quiet, you would too if all this happened to you.  

And no, the doctors didn't give a shizer that MMS cured their patients of AIDS.  In fact, one of them never went back to their doctor, the other two found the doctors just wanted to give them more drugs "just in case", even though they told them the drugs made them sick to begin with.  The doctors don't care.  The media doesn't care.  No one cares but the mothers of those children who are being saved, right now, while we sit here and debate if those mothers even exist.  

It would make me laugh if it wasn't so friggin' tragic.  

I can't respond on this topic further here, I'll take the issue to the thread but right now I have to get breakky for the kids. 

Whatever. WHATEVER. If one of my AIDS patients was cured I'd be crying with joy. I'd be calling the media and writing it up in journals. For you to say that doctors don't care- well you can you know what yourself. How DARE you say that doctors don't care about seeing their patients cured. How DARE you. I just have no words.

What would YOU do if a patient came to you and said they took MMS and it cured them?  What would you say?  Because no doctor has yet alerted the media or suggested it to their other patients, and there have been many, many doctors presented with the results of MMS.  If you are the exception to the rule, I'm glad to know you and would love to work with you on this.  There are many HIV positives on my list who are looking for a doctor with a mind open enough to support them with the use of MMS.

 

oh please...if you ever actually open this thread instead of randomly blurting out how your "cure" has saved thousands and thousands of people, I will happily jump into the discussion but since that thread appears to never actually occur why don't you stop schilling for that product on other people's threads. You have enough time to post the same thing over and over again on other vax threads but never the time to open a thread specifically about MMS so apologies if I take your claims even less seriously than I had  before.
 

It is not my cure.  An oxidiser rips electrons from pathogens... I don't do a thing, nor did I discover it.  A man with HIV contacted me 3 years ago as I had a rep for helping people with herbs and diet.  He told me about MMS, said it helped him get off meds.  Thought I could use the info.  That man is the reason the chain reaction began for me.  Several HIV positives decided to give it a go, but it was the three who were highly symptomatic and/or dying that were of most interest to me.  They are not claiming anything miraculous.  It was fascinating, and then their blood work altered.  I wrote some things down.  And that was that.  Nothing startling, standard chemistry with an oxidiser... I've just never seen it happen so consistently or so fast before.  I do not sell it.  It can be made for 2 cents in your bathtub with salt.  It is sold for 20 bucks online for a year's supply.  I assure you, no one is getting rich off this stuff.  So, I guess I'm not motivated by greed, I look forward to learning what other motivations I have.

I don't know where your hostility is coming from, I've been fairly respectful in my discussions.  I have mentioned it on here on two threads.  TWO.  I've mentioned it when it was relevant - and eradication of disease to me makes it relevant.  A moderator suggested I start a thread as it seemed a topic of interest.  Initially, I was concerned due to reactions like yours.  I've shied away due to past experience it can get rather nasty, regardless how "calm" I remain.  I am not thick skinned, and these discussions are hard on me.  I have been answering questions about vax directed at me which add up to all my alloted online time, and really, this thread was a spin off I recognise largely due to me, so I wanted to give it some due consideration.  I haven't the time to extend myself too far.  I also stated clearly I was going away this weekend.  Frankly, wth is your problem?  Can you back off and give a gal a chance?  There is no conspiracy to not start a thread, whatever that means.  I will start one.  I needed to know I would have what it will take, and I'm still not sure I do... I know for some reason this topic brings up anger, and people cannot help but direct that anger at me, and not all of us have taken our zen pills yet... perhaps we should share some.  Seems like you could use some perspective and compassion yourself.

Edited by Calm - 4/24/11 at 7:59pm

[WildKingdom]

What would I do if a patient came to me and told me they'd been cured by mms? I'd check their cd4 and viral load. If their lab work confirmed everything, I'd write it up as a case study and submit it for publication. Then I'd work with some of the research ID specialists I know about getting a grant to start a study. I sure as hell wouldn't write it off.

[Calm]

JMJ, as you can see, I'm in a quandary now.  I want to discuss more here, but I can't do that and an MMS thread, lest it seem I am avoiding making one or something.  Perhaps in future I'll come back, as I was interested in some things brought up about vitamins and so on.  Thanks for hosting.  *tips hat*

[Ldavis24]

 It is toxic, is not a real cure for AIDS or anything else and the most ridiculous part is that when people get physically ill taking this product they are led to believe per the instructions that it is simply "toxins" leaving the body. Oh and lower the dosage a little and you are all set.

. Perhaps the discussions are hard on your because you can't provide any real evidence to prove these fabulous claims and it gets frustrating when people won't just believe some kind hearted stranger on the internet telling them "it's true". 

I am sorry for getting personally angry. Never fair to someone else and I hate it when it happens to me....There is no such thing as a panacea and that is that. Sorry to ruin your day. 

Edited as told to.

Edited by Ldavis24 - 4/28/11 at 5:09am

[Calm]

Originally Posted by WildKingdom 

What would I do if a patient came to me and told me they'd been cured by mms? I'd check their cd4 and viral load. If their lab work confirmed everything, I'd write it up as a case study and submit it for publication. Then I'd work with some of the research ID specialists I know about getting a grant to start a study. I sure as hell wouldn't write it off.

Could you do anything with the blood work details of patients who are not currently your own?  Could the details be faxed to you?  There have been some who have blood work that has a significant viral load and CD4, yet they physically so much healthier after treatment.  Why doesn't the blood work change for some of them?  I couldn't explain that to them, and perhaps these are some of the things you can help me with.  I haven't done HIV work in over a year, but I still have contact with them.  Shall I PM you?

[WildKingdom]

If the still have a significant viral load and cd4, then they are not cured. Period. You can't claim otherwise.

And I'm sorry, but I am not comfortable sharing my identifying information with you.

[Calm]

I didn't claim those ones were cured.  I was wondering about some that do not show a change in numbers.  I didn't say all don't show a change in numbers.  But I assume, as a doctor, you would still find it significant if someone goes from emaciated, weak and given three months to live to being vibrant and healthy with a healthy weight - regardless of blood scores.  

[JMJ]

Originally Posted by Calm 

JMJ, as you can see, I'm in a quandary now.  I want to discuss more here, but I can't do that and an MMS thread, lest it seem I am avoiding making one or something.  Perhaps in future I'll come back, as I was interested in some things brought up about vitamins and so on.  Thanks for hosting.  *tips hat*

I understand that we all have limited computer time for these intense discussions.  It sounds to me like there is an interest in a discussion on MMS, but I think it is a discussion that should happen in its own thread so that you can lay out the evidence that you have in full and let people respond to what you do have rather than what they believe about what you do have.  I am still very interested in what evidence you (or anyone else) have about illnesses draining the body of nutrients and people dying of nutrient deficiencies associated with infectious diseases.  If you need to suspend this discussion for now and return to it later, that is fine with me.  I am interested in what you have to say whenever you get the chance.  I can be patient.

If any of the rest of you would like to continue this discussion of how diseases can be effectively prevented, treated, and eradicated, please feel free to join me.  Please remember to be respectful of each others beliefs and feelings and avoid labeling other people as unreasonable or uncaring.  I know that we look at our computers and see only words, but there are real people writing those words and there are real people reading these words.  Part of the beauty of MDC is the fact that it is a place where people with alternative ideas can be given a voice and be taken seriously, even if they are viewed with a healthy amount of skepticism.  We are a wonderfully diverse crowd, but we can relate to each other respectfully even as we disagree.

[chaoticzenmom]

Spin-off discussion about Chlorine Dioxide and the eradication of disease

In an attempt to keep the conversation about Chlorine Dioxide in an appropriate forum, I am moving the conversation here for further responses. Here is a link to the original thread.  http://www.mothering.com/community/forum/thread/1308476/vaccine-eradication-of-disease

Thank you

Edited by chaoticzenmom - 4/25/11 at 9:53am

[Panserbjorne]

I'm interested in hearing more as MMS scares the crapola out of me and there are several people I dearly love that are taking it.

The marketing scares me and I don't feel that there's a lot of clarity or honesty.  I hate that it's called multi MINERAL supplement when it is absolutely and without question a chemical.  I mean...it's a BLEACH.  The way in which it works makes it all the more dangerous.  Because of how it works it circumvents the body's natural defenses so you can truly do a LOT of damage very quickly and not really know it-ESPECIALLY when you're told that everything you feel is a "healing reaction" which is one of the things I really detest about natural medicine.  A healing reaction is generally a sign that you're body isn't handling something you're doing well, and therefore symptoms are produced.  It isn't necessarily "damaging" but it's a stress.  AND when do you determine when the line has been crossed and it IS damaging?  OR when do you determine that there was never a line and something is straight up toxic?

Due to it's nature as an oxidation agent it is only "safe" (and I use that term loosely) for healthy tissue.  Just as it will attack diseased tissue it has the potential to attack tissue that is in the process of repair-so how can it heal if it's knocking you down when you're weakest?  I don't know...I'm all for alternative medicine but this just screams dangerous to me.  I'd love to hear more information and I'd love to be wrong.  I'm generally very open to being wrong.  I just don't think in this instance I am.  BUT anything you can provide would be helpful  I know that modern medicine doesn't have all the answers, and I personally will generally value a person's experience over lab results, but in this case I just need more.

[Ldavis24]

Thank you mod for doing this!

As far as I am concerned I will make a point to try and stay respectful without getting personal. That said I think that when someone brings in their personal experiences into an argument then you tend to open yourself up for a more personal discussion.

I am primarily interested in one thing. EVIDENCE. Actual physical scientific (verifiable) evidence that proves MMS's claims. 

I do NOT accept as evidence the following (maybe others will agree here)

 1. anecdotal stories of thousands of people being saved from the brink of death. This is not provable.

 2. Personal accounts of how it worked for you...again not actual evidence of anything (for all you know it could have had a placebo effect)

 3. Videos of those claiming to be cured by MMS. I know there are LOTS and lots of these videos floating around the internet, I have watched several myself. If all one had to do to prove something is post a video of it there wouldn't be a discussion as to the reality of a big foot or UFOs whizzing around the skies.

If one argues that this is all there is then I am sorry to say this skeptic won't be very impressed at all. 

I am looking for one study, a single study that shows that a person who took MMS (say who has AIDS) had the virus pre MMS and then after MMS the virus was no longer in the body. That is a cure, that is something that is cured. Just feeling better after taking it is NOT a cure. That is a placebo effect if anything.

I appreciate that the common counter argument to the lack of actual scientific data is the FDA doesn't want this info to get out or the FDA is somehow conspiring against MMS, I am not interested in these theories personally, although someone might be. That is like saying the government is keeping it quiet about aliens...I can make an outrageous claim but don't expect anyone to take it seriously. 

Finally, I personally think Jim Humble is quite the clever con man. His mantra is this stuff can be made for pennies but he SELLS a product MMS and books about it and I very much doubt that money is going to charity. So my final point is, why if Jim Humble says this stuff can be made for nearly free is he encouraging people to buy his book (to hear fantastical claims of it curing everything?) and buy his product.

MMS is bleach glorified. The claim is that it attacks only the disease, that is strictly impossible. Bleach is an opportunist, it kills everything good and bad there is no magical way it can suddenly only attack diseased cells. That part of the argument has long confused me. Bleach doesn't act differently inside the body than out just based on it suddenly being ingested.

MMS is being touted as a PANACEA, it has been claimed to cure the following (that I have read thus far) AIDS, MALARIA, CHOLERA, HERPES,ANCE, BAD BREATH, FLU and finally CANCER...Maybe more that I haven't read about. Throughout recent history there have been many claims of a panacea being found and they have ALL been untrue. There is literally no such thing as a panacea and there are people all over the internet claiming MMS is that very thing. I have seen zero actual proof to this effect. The only thing I do see is repeated claims that doctors don't care (I find that hard to believe on numerous levels) the FDA is conspiring against MMS because there is no money it or something, and people just are too close minded to BELIEVE...Once again some form of actual scientific proof would be real swell..

edited as told to.

Edited by Ldavis24 - 4/28/11 at 5:11am

[WildKingdom]

Thank you, Lauren. I agree 100% with you, and I think you were perfectly respectful- probably more respectful than people who hawk MMS deserve. It's hard to not get emotional when you see people with life-threatening illness being taken advantage of.

[MeepyCat]

Originally Posted by Calm 

Could you do anything with the blood work details of patients who are not currently your own?  Could the details be faxed to you?  There have been some who have blood work that has a significant viral load and CD4, yet they physically so much healthier after treatment.  Why doesn't the blood work change for some of them?  I couldn't explain that to them, and perhaps these are some of the things you can help me with.  I haven't done HIV work in over a year, but I still have contact with them.  Shall I PM you?

Calm, I am not WildKingdom, but here's one issue:  paperwork regarding blood tests can be faked.  Faxing is a fantastic way to obscure the indications of forgery.  (Seriously.  Give me one original lab report, a PC, and a multi-function copier and within 24 hours, I can fax you a lab report that says anything you want it to say about anyone you name.)  Furthermore, a single run of bloodwork proves nothing.  Sure, a test may genuinely show that Patient A has a good CD4 count and low/no viral loads, but what were those values last week?  Did this person ever test HIV+, or exhibit symptoms of AIDS?

Plenty of AIDS patients are asymptomatic, and we have various tactics for attempting to return patients to that state or to keep them there in the first place.  What researchers want to do is to cure the disease - to assist the body in mounting a successful immune response against the retrovirus, such that they cease to carry it.

An oxidiser rips electrons from pathogens... Nothing startling, standard chemistry with an oxidiser...

This is decidedly NOT standard chemistry.  How can an oxidiser "rip electrons" from a retrovirus encased within lipids and glycoproteins?  How can bleach operate to rip electrons from a pathogen already contained within a human host cell without doing catastrophic damage to that cell, and ultimately to the host? 

I have seen a lot of scientific hoaxes, and this one has many of the red flags I associate with those:  fundamental misunderstanding of the problem, vague and scientifically questionable descriptions of the mechanism of the solution, and "proof" consisting of poorly documented individual cases, resulting in rejection and indifference from the larger scientific community.