Spin-off discussion about Chlorine Dioxide/MMS and the eradication of disease - Page 16

[Annie Mac]

Originally Posted by ElizabethE 

Yeah, that's about what I expected. /\

Not too long ago I insinuated over at those forums you just mentioned (irrelevance, anyone?)  that people who just came to argue with our beliefs had questionable reasons for being there and I was branded as trying to control who comes and goes. Now you are suggesting I don't belong here. Funny how that works.

Oh and LDavis and Annie need a little reading comprehension help, because they very obviously misunderstood me something serious. One of them thought I was referring to her, and one of them got me all mixed up as soon as the word "mainstream" entered the picture. But attack away!
 

Elizabeth, I do hope whatever's upsetting you IRL settles down soon & you find some joy in your life. Totally serious about that. I found your posts to be disproportionately hostile, and I wonder what's going on with you that you feel it's normal and OK to say things like this.  It's one thing to disagree with someone's viewpoints; it is quite another to make the attacks personal. I assumed you were referring to me because you quoted me directly. And then you proceeded to make mean, personal and, given the context, puzzling accusations. Now you're saying I "need a little reading comprehension help." Maybe you don't realize, but these statements come across quite personally, baffling so, in fact. I have to wonder just WHO is hanging around poking WHO? I also never attacked you, or anyone else for that matter. Go re-read my post to you. I defended myself against what I (apparently) mistakenly thought were comments directed at me, and then I went back to the subject of the thread: MMS. 

I won't engage with you again if you continue with your insults, but I do feel the need to point out how hostile and personal your posts come across. If this wasn't your intent, you might want to rethink the wording (that's not a personal insult, but honest constructive criticism). However, if it IS your intent, you're doing a bang-up job! If it IS your intent, I'm sorry that you're in that mindspace. And just one more observation: when you're selling a product on the internet (ie, your book), YOU are your advertisement. Just something to think about. 

[ElizabethE]

Thanks for the advice.

You're playing a game in which you draw first blood and then cry foul when someone stands up to you. The continuous turning of the tables is not lost on everyone. I hope you're aware of that.

[Calm]

Quick to attack yet quick to cry foul.  Can dish it but can't take it.  That's a theme in this thread.  Elizabeth is the only one to (publicly) point out how I've been treated in this thread and oh how quickly she was told to basically go away.  

Just incredible.  I've not experienced anything like what happened in this thread as an adult, yet everyone seems to be in freakin' denial about it.  Whatever.

[saoirsehann]

I have used MMS quite often over the past few years travelling to other countries and will say that the side effects have alot to do with the persons belief system, as I have shared it with many people.

When I take 15 drops for something like the flu...I will say it is a horrible drink, but, boy the following day I am healed of the flu. Every time.

I use it for all sorts of things and no, I do not believe it to be toxic...I have only had healing results, not more sickness.

Margarine is one molecule off plastic...does that make margarine plastic and if so why is it sold in food stores? This product is akin to a prescription drug, in the sense that if you take too much, too fast, you will have negative symptoms.   

If you are really sick, like with cancer...it is probable that you will have some detoxification after taking...but, if you have decided to live, I believe it will take you towards health.

People who listen to their doctors (or the FDA) exclusively, will always have problems with alternative therapies...in my experience, anyway. Health is a personal choice...if you want to put your health in someone elses hands, go for it...I choose to learn about and treat my own health, and by the way, I live in a country that allows that.

Here's to your health.

[Rhonwyn]

Sorry to come late to this discussion.  Calm, is this something one can buy in the US?

I am really surpised at the amount of acrimony this alternative healing has caused here at Mothering.  I had always thought that the parents of Mothering were more open to non-Western medicine.

[rhiandmoi]

If people could get better by drinking chlorinated water and believing they would get better, no one would ever be sick in the US as the vast majority of our drinking water is chlorinated. Probably a good amount of it with ClO2 as a top commercial purpose for ClO2 is to sanitize drinking water.

It is available pretty much everywhere. It is not a secret product that is being hidden away from the world. You can purchase ClO2 precursors at any camping store, online, and in huge commercial quantities directly from huge mainstream manufacturers such as DuPont.

If I told you that you could be cured of the flu by drinking a dilute solution of Sodium Hypochlorite (another molecule that contains chlorite) I could probably sell a good number of people on that just because of the scientificish sound of it. And then if I said, this is a remedy that FDA doesn't want you to know about even though there are tons of studies showing how it is a highly effective water sanitizer, it kills pathogens on contact, etc. etc. etc. I could sell a few more.

The plain truth is that Sodium Hypochlorite is bleach. Like buy it in the laundry aisle at Target bleach. It is used daily to purify water, sanitize surfaces, and is safe to ingest in extremely low concentrations.  But it can and will make you very ill if you consume high concentrations of it.

I think people who don't get nausea from drinking MMS solutions are diluting it below toxic thresholds. As per the directions for use.

[Ldavis24]

Originally Posted by Rhonwyn 

Sorry to come late to this discussion.  Calm, is this something one can buy in the US?

I am really surpised at the amount of acrimony this alternative healing has caused here at Mothering.  I had always thought that the parents of Mothering were more open to non-Western medicine.

I don't consider MMS non-western or medicine and I bet I am not the only one....So I think you can rest easy knowing that a lot of mamas here ARE open to

non western-medicine but maybe aren't so open to drinking industrial water sanitizer that has been diluted.

[Rhonwyn]

Well, I have worked with Calm as a healer and I have known her for over 10 years.  I trust her and her knowledge.

[oaktreemama]

 Well, I have worked with Calm as a healer and I have known her for over 10 years.  I trust her and her knowledge

Cool. How many people has she cured of AIDS, malaria, autism, shingles, fibro, and cancer with MMS? Seeing as she clearly doesn't even understand the basic chemistry of how MMS supposedly works (or even how the body actually works) I must admit I remain unconvinced.

And I see we have a first time poster chiming in with how MMS cures the flu. Wow-even more miraculous healings attributed to MMS. Where will it stop? I am still wondering if it will raise the dead. Because that seems to be the ONLY claim Calm and her buds have yet to promise.

[Calm]

Originally Posted by oaktreemama 

Cool. How many people has she cured of AIDS, malaria, autism, shingles, fibro, and cancer with MMS? Seeing as she clearly doesn't even understand the basic chemistry of how MMS supposedly works (or even how the body actually works) I must admit I remain unconvinced.

And I see we have a first time poster chiming in with how MMS cures the flu. Wow-even more miraculous healings attributed to MMS. Where will it stop? I am still wondering if it will raise the dead. Because that seems to be the ONLY claim Calm and her buds have yet to promise.

Yes.  She must be lying too, because you can't believe it.  FWIW, I have never interacted with saoirsehann before.  

And since you seem to have a memory deficit, I'll repeat it for the forth or fifth time... I have not cured anyone of anything.  I reported the three men who took MMS and reported to ME what happened.  I have no reason to distrust them, as I had known them long enough before they used MMS.  I personally have used it for endometriosis, fibroids, ovarian cysts and migraines.  Two friends have traveled with Jim and worked with it since that time and have a ton of testimonials of some incredible healings (yes, AIDS and cancer included) but again, I am not curing them, I am just reporting it.  

As for chemistry... ask your doctor how some of his drugs work.  He wouldn't have a bloody clue.  Do you hold that against him?  Do you expect him to explain the chemistry to you of any drugs you take?  I guarantee that if you push him to do so, he'll pull a book off the shelf and look it up.  Do you know how tylenol works, or how any of the herbals or whatever you take work?  Did you need to understand how they worked before you used them?  If so, you are definitely in the minority.  

Chemistry is a massive subject, I did it 15 years ago myself and I don't remember all of it.  Ordinarily, a healer (doctor or alternative) doesn't need to remember such things, because it is easy enough to look up should someone be that concerned about the chemistry.  Go to a chemist for the nitty gritty on chemistry... and I never said I was a chemist.  I said I had friends who had success, as did I, and that I believe all the testimonials and my friends who traveled with Jim to Africa and Haiti and Europe.  

Why is that so hard to deal with?

You always had the option to simply not believe my word or the words of others who have used it successfully.  You don't have to keep trying to belittle and invalidate me.  What do you get out of doing that??  It just seems silly to keep telling people they are claiming miracles just because it cured their flu.  It ain't that miraculous... the flu is a virus, and chlorine dioxide kills viruses.  With all the testimonies - at some point, the person who looks ridiculous is the one who won't believe.

ETA - although being offended on here is nothing new, I do think it is rather offensive to say I don't know how the body works simply because I couldn't explain the chemistry of this to your liking.  Many others grasped it long before you, so I'm not sure I'm the one completely at fault here.  

Edited by Calm - 5/11/11 at 7:25pm

[Calm]

I believe it is available in the USA, Rhonwyn.  I just don't know where.  A google would pull up sources.  

[Marnica]

Originally Posted by oaktreemama 

Cool. How many people has she cured of AIDS, malaria, autism, shingles, fibro, and cancer with MMS? Seeing as she clearly doesn't even understand the basic chemistry of how MMS supposedly works (or even how the body actually works) I must admit I remain unconvinced.

And I see we have a first time poster chiming in with how MMS cures the flu. Wow-even more miraculous healings attributed to MMS. Where will it stop? I am still wondering if it will raise the dead. Because that seems to be the ONLY claim Calm and her buds have yet to promise.

No actually this poster shared that she has cured HER flu with MMS. She is not making any universal claim, nor has Calm who has merely spoken about the success her friendds have had with it. Both are personal anecdotal stories - not claims of cures. I could sit here and write about several things - "snakeoils" that I have taken that have cured me of various ailments. I wouldn't assume that everyone would have the same success with it nor would I say it was a universal cure for something. I would say I took this - it worked for me. I don't see that the poster you are referring to has said anything different. I have followed this thread from the beginning and am disgusted by the way certain people have been traeted here. Name calling, accusations - seriously High School wasn't even this bad. The bottom line is this - MMS is controversial. There are those that believe it to be nothing more than industrial bleach - dangerous to ingest and those that do so are foolish. There are those that have had positive experiences with it and feel it may be helpful. Some have no experience with it and are interested in learning more (like me) which is why the last few pages (before it turned ugly again) when it was a more cordial discussion of chemistry was interesting. I hope we can get back there.

Calm you wonder why folks are not more public in their displays of support. (whether it be support of MMS or support of you persoanlly) The way you have been treated here should be an obvious answer for you. As someone who has been publically  and privately eviscerated in the distant past by certain posters at MDC - I am no longer willing to engage in debate with people who have the capacity to be so vile to others. I applaud you for having thicker skin than I do. I think what people tend to forget since this is a message board and we don't actually know each other IRL - there are no faces to our names - is that we are all people, we all have feelings and we all deserve respect from one another - even if the things we say are not popular. I notice that there are several people on this thread who clearly think you are wrong about MMS and it's chemistry but they have managed to keep the personal insults out of their posts. I wonder why all posters cannot do the same?? I guess some people just don't know how to play nice. I've also seen that some posters are almost incredulous about the fact that some MDC members do not seem more open to alternative ideas. MDC is a microcosm of the real world. Just like out there there are all kinds of folks here.

Anyway It would be great if the actual discussion about MMS and the chemistry involved could resume.

[rhiandmoi]

Originally Posted by Rhonwyn 

Sorry to come late to this discussion.  Calm, is this something one can buy in the US?

I am really surpised at the amount of acrimony this alternative healing has caused here at Mothering.  I had always thought that the parents of Mothering were more open to non-Western medicine.

As I have already said, ClO2 is WIDELY available. Go to any camping store. Go to Walmart, or Kmart or anywhere that has a camping department.

It is also available as a sanitizer and disinfectant for water and surfaces in about 15 different formulations. It has been in commercial production for nearly 100 years. It is not a secret compound. It is millions of dollars in annual sales for this compound.

I would be interested to know how the product marketed as MMS originates. My best guess is that it is a commercial biocide that is being repackaged. I doubt that Jim Humble has the equipment available to him to produce it himself. And as the MMS lore indicates that the curative properties were discovered by poorly diluting a commercially available water sanitizer, that seems likely.

[Calm]

Originally Posted by rhiandmoi 

As I have already said, ClO2 is WIDELY available. Go to any camping store. Go to Walmart, or Kmart or anywhere that has a camping department.

It is also available as a sanitizer and disinfectant for water and surfaces in about 15 different formulations. It has been in commercial production for nearly 100 years. It is not a secret compound. It is millions of dollars in annual sales for this compound.

I would be interested to know how the product marketed as MMS originates. My best guess is that it is a commercial biocide that is being repackaged. I doubt that Jim Humble has the equipment available to him to produce it himself. And as the MMS lore indicates that the curative properties were discovered by poorly diluting a commercially available water sanitizer, that seems likely.

MMS is not ClO2.  It is a specific strength of sodium chlorite.  You can't just buy it at any store, plus there is the risk something like that would be contaminated.  Perhaps another look at Adam's pages and his video would help you understand those parts.  It is a 28% strength, however Adam explains how it is actually a 22% strength.  Sold with it is citric acid... but I only bought that with my first bottle.  I now just buy my citric acid from the supermarket.  Those two things are mixed as drops together, and those drops are calculated so people don't take too little or too much.  Since millions have taken it and there are no deaths or reports of harm it seems people have been smart enough to do it right.  

I suggest that if you, or anyone, were to keep assuming this was just commercial bleach and went out and used it as such, then perhaps we would have our first cases of stupidity regarding this.  I caution against that.

It can be made out of simple salt, sodium chloride.  It has an electric current put through it and this turns it to sodium chlorite.  Jim can make it himself and has done... but he does not sell it, he gives the instructions for how to do that out for free.  It is also part of the tuition at his minister's course in the Dominican Republic.  Sodium chlorite is what those drugs are made of that were spoken of earlier, and is actually a little toxic.  There is hardly any toxicity attributable to chlorine dioxide from any tests and strengths so far yet the same cannot be said for sodium chlorite.  In fact, the reason America's public water supply is not treated with chlorine dioxide has nothing to do with chlorine dioxide - as that always tests clean, simple and safe, in fact much safer than your current chlorination methods which leave toxic residues.  The reason it isn't used is because of the sodium chlorite.... there was concern too much would remain in the water.  

[Calm]

To add... chlorine dioxide is used as public water treatment in other countries, however, such as Germany.  So somehow they've managed to overcome the chlorite factor.  

[rhiandmoi]

It can be made out of simple salt, sodium chloride.  It has an electric current put through it and this turns it to sodium chlorite.

What happens when you run a current through a solution of sodium chloride using inert electrodes?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-XbxSiDQWY

It produces Hydrogen gas, Chlorine gas, and Lye. What type of electrodes are used to produce the Sodium Chlorite?

[rhiandmoi]

Originally Posted by Calm 

To add... chlorine dioxide is used as public water treatment in other countries, however, such as Germany.  So somehow they've managed to overcome the chlorite factor.  

There is no chlorite factor. Chlorine dioxide is 100% a valid biocide for use in disinfection of water, and for the disinfection of surfaces. Sodium Chlorite is a very common Chlorine Dioxide precursor for this very use. It is commercially available in several concentrations.

I would say that almost without a doubt the MMS being sold is repackage commercially acquired products. The solids are possibly Saf-T-Chlor http://www.cdgtechnology.com/sites/default/files/MSDS_SAF-T-CHLOR_Sodium_Chlorite_CDG_Environmental.pdf

The liquids maybe a diluted form of any one of a number of commercial sanitizers.

I guess it is possible that people are making their own Sodium Chlorite solutions by pouring hydrogen peroxide over sodium chlorate (which used to be a commercially available weed killer, although that is become less so). But I really hope not.

[Calm]

Um, I'm not sure I'm following much of what you just said, it all sounds a bit thrown together. 

Out of all you said, I'll make some assumptions of what you are asking.  

Here is how to make sodium chlorite.

From the How To site.

Regarding the chlorite factor:

Chlorine dioxide is a faster-acting disinfectant than elemental chlorine, however it is relatively rarely used, because in some circumstances it may create excessive amounts of chlorite, which is a by-product regulated to low allowable levels in the United States. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_purification#Chlorine_dioxide_disinfection

Which is exactly what I said the issue was:

The reason it isn't used is because of the sodium chlorite.... there was concern too much would remain in the water.  

So what did you mean?

Edited by Calm - 5/12/11 at 5:03pm

[Calm]

Concerns of where they source the sodium chlorite would have to be addressed through each vendor.  I also like MSM, which is how sulfur is naturally found and there were once concerns about its purity.  I have found a great supplier of it, so I've overcome this problem, but I would think buying anything that isn't regulated means one takes such responsibility one's self.  

We can't have our hand held for everything, and personally, I don't want my hand held for anything.  I'm capable of figuring everything out myself, and sourcing good supplies.  I would not trade my health freedoms for so called "security" - which is basically the gov't telling me what I can and can't have based on what they deem to be safe or healthy.  Esp not from gov'ts that sanitise the life out of everything, irradiate foods, and think all microorganisms should be killed off our foods - that is the definition of "healthy and safe" to those that regulate, so I have less than NO respect for such "health security".  But almost everyone else relies on it to a sick degree... they suck from the teat of gov't and trust the agencies know what they're doing.  Bollocks to that.  Due your own due diligence... you can do it, I have faith in you, in all of us!  Hail personal responsibility.  And blah blah blah *waves little flag*.  

I even visit local fruit and vegetable growers, because I want to see the farms I'm purchasing from.  If there is animal cruelty or some practice I don't agree with, I don't care how organic it claims to be, I won't buy there.  I recommend this to everyone... most people just buy whatever they buy, including foods, without ever knowing the source.  I find that to be lunacy.  But each to their own.

With MMS all you need is a pure source of sodium chlorite.  It is up to you to find such a source.  If you find that source in a bottle marked "industrial use only" then bully for you.  Use your own head... things turn out much better when we think for ourselves.

ETA - MMS is DILUTED sodium chlorite.  If I found a pure source of it, I'd then have to research how to make MMS out of it...  Hence why most people just buy from an MMS vendor... all that has been done for them.

Edited by Calm - 5/12/11 at 5:07pm

[Calm]

Many people are waking up to private memberships to retain (or regain, in some circumstances) their health freedoms.  For those not yet in the know, if you want to purchase things that are a bit "iffy" FDA or gov't wise, join one.  I personally think Project Green Life is good, and most people I know are in there which opens up the flow of information and products much wider.  When things like vitamin C and certain amino acids or herbs are taken from our choices in some countries, it seems private memberships are becoming one of our only avenues to freedom.

Alas, we've found a solution to an otherwise insurmountable problem.  Government agencies have a mandate to protect "the public" but have very limited jurisdiction over 1st and 14th Amendment private membership associations.  By being a private healthcare membership association we are free to share products and information with one another - our fellow members - providing solutions and remedies many so desperately need. 

The agreement:

http://projectgreenlife.com/docs/Project_GreenLife_Membership_Association_Contract.pdf