Spin-off discussion about Chlorine Dioxide/MMS and the eradication of disease - Page 4

[Calm]

 

none of what you posted is evidence of a cure of anything

Yet you hadn't read it.  I point that out, then you post:

 

as far as your other links I am wading through them now ...

So excuse me if I think you're just messing with me.  You went straight in to discredit the science and you hadn't even read it.  

You wrote this, without having read it:

 

your definition of "actual" science is very unique, I'll give you that one and you are right I came here as skeptic unlikely to be convinced but you have truly cemented in my mind that MMS is a big fat lie lie lie

What you say is worth absolutely nothing to this.  You blatantly misled, how can we trust an opinion based on that?  You show no genuine inquiry, not even interest in learning.  

 

in fact most of them are just as stupid as this whole argument. 

Most of them are peer reviewed studies or research done in respectable institutes - but of course, you'd know that if you'd read them.  "Just as stupid"? 

Incredible.  You want science, I give you science, you don't read the science before ridiculing the science, me, and insulting the scientists themselves.  

I really really hope that everyone's critique isn't going to be this asinine.  I don't see the point in enduring post after post of mudslinging and character assassination.

Edited by Calm - 4/26/11 at 3:02pm

[oaktreemama]

How it works against malaria specifically, via oral administration - very interesting and important work, with extensive references. 

If by extensive you mean he simply rehashes Jim Humble's work- well ok I agree with that. Many of the other references included are things no one disagrees with-that bleach disinfects. The doctor who wrote this is a big fan of Humble (and is running the Malaria Initiative), that much is clear. So much of his proof is simply what Jim Humble tells him. This kind of circle jerk is NOT scientific evidence of anything.

Effect of Chlorine Dioxide Gas at Extremely low concentration on absenteeism of school children

You read the findings at the end right? They found it was very effective at disinfecting surfaces. Even the pumping of trace amounts worked because the solution was covering the known vectors of flu transmission. At the very end the authors recommend three ways of combating the flu-

1. Disinfection of surfaces, wearing masks, washing hands

2. The use of HEPA filters, and small amounts of the gas as a virucide (which again no one is disputing that bleach kills things)

3. And to protect humans-routine vaccination against influenza, use of anti-influenza medications, and high doses of Vitamin D

From the No Need to Evacuate Link:

Taiko's chlorine dioxide product has three forms, one is a precisely controlled chlorine dioxide gas generating machine. The machine is installed adjacent to an air-conditioner of a building and the gas generated is introduced in the duct of the air-conditioner to disinfect air of a large room. Another form is a desktop-type small gas generating gel. The "gel" is used on top of a desk or table or stuck to a wall of a room to disinfect air in a relatively small room.  The third is chlorine dioxide solution used as a spray to disinfect an object's surface.

Again and again and again the links you have posted (besides the ridiculous stuff from Humble and his cronies) simply states that it is an effective SURFACE

disinfectant.

I'll be back after I've read some more-so far though it is the same old same old-a bunch of bogus claims and links to studies that agree bleach disinfects stuff.

[Panserbjorne]

Calm,

Thank you for taking the time to post the links.  I haven't gone through them yet, but am looking forward to doing so.  I'm quite clear that there are plenty of things out there that work brilliantly where the FDA either stands in direct opposition or (even better) arbitrarily decides they are harmful with no actual evidence supporting those claims. 

I don't yet know where this falls, and I'm still concerned, but I'm eager to become more informed.

[Calm]

As this was brought up... Jim is not selling MMS.  He shows how to make it yourself out of salt and electric current.  He sells his books, yes.  Rich?  If you'd traveled with him, you'd rethink the use of the word "rich".  He is a bishop of a church where they give free healing with it.  If people feel the treatment was worth it, they donate.  No healing, no pay.  Makes sense to me.

[Ldavis24]

...

Edited by Ldavis24 - 4/26/11 at 2:50pm

[Ldavis24]

....

Edited by Ldavis24 - 4/26/11 at 2:51pm

[Calm]

Oaktree, I said in the FAQ that it was external and internal... they are mixed in that list.  Many people don't even know it works at all against pathogens.  When speaking about this at a basic level, and there is much evidence here that I am, I must first show that it actually works against pathogens.  The question is, does it also do that inside the body?  If yes, then: is it safe?  

There is evidence it enters body organs intact.  I closed my links page but if someone wants that study let me know.

In another note, thank you for showing something more.. well, you know... more.  I appreciate the intelligent discourse.  

[Calm]

I'm sorry Lauren, but you crossed the line long ago.  I'm done with you.  Good luck.  

[Ldavis24]

...

Edited by Ldavis24 - 4/26/11 at 2:51pm

[Calm]

I'm surprised your posts haven't been removed, honestly.  They're pretty defamatory, you did cross the line.  Unnecessary.

[oaktreemama]

There is extensive research on use as a mouth rinse.  This is just one of them.  

Again you are not ingesting it. You are using it like Listerine which also cautions you against swallowing it. Same with gargling salt water. If you swallow it chances are very good you will vomit. Does this mean a salt water gargle is cleansing my body of toxins and pathogens? Because that is what the makers of MMS claim when you vomit.

Chronic Administration to healthy adult males 

This study I am not sure about at all-it appears that they were attempting to study the effects of drinking water treated with CIO2 vs either untreated water or water treated with another derivative. I cannot gain access to the whole study though.

Edited by oaktreemama - 4/26/11 at 7:03am

[mbravebird]

I am having a really hard time seeing the information past all the insults. Could you all carry the insults to PM, and keep it strictly information-based here? I really want to understand more about this, as my father was recently diagnosed with stage 4 cancer, has started MMS, and is having side effects. I lean toward suspicion of the substance, especially given the awful side effects, but I am still open to learning more about it. I will be looking at the links provided as I have time.

For me, it is emotionally difficult to read people's insults to each other, and it makes me suspicious of information that comes from anyone who speaks/writes like that. Think of it as good discipline for your point of view, to present your argument clearly, cogently, and without insults. I could really use a facts-based discussion of the issue, so that I could pass it along to my father as he makes a decision about whether or not to continue on.

I continue to be grateful for the exchange of information I can find on MDC.

[Marnica]

Originally Posted by mbravebird 

I am having a really hard time seeing the information past all the insults. Could you all carry the insults to PM, and keep it strictly information-based here? I really want to understand more about this, as my father was recently diagnosed with stage 4 cancer, has started MMS, and is having side effects. I lean toward suspicion of the substance, especially given the awful side effects, but I am still open to learning more about it. I will be looking at the links provided as I have time.

For me, it is emotionally difficult to read people's insults to each other, and it makes me suspicious of information that comes from anyone who speaks/writes like that. Think of it as good discipline for your point of view, to present your argument clearly, cogently, and without insults. I could really use a facts-based discussion of the issue, so that I could pass it along to my father as he makes a decision about whether or not to continue on.

I continue to be grateful for the exchange of information I can find on MDC.

I have to agree with you here. The mudslinging is unbearable. To Calm for what it's worth, I appreciate your taking the time to speak about your experiences with MMS and what you know. I am interested in learning more and open to your point of view and looking into opposing points of view as well. I also do not believe that you have bad intentions or are hawking anything. I believe you have knowledge and experience with MMS that most people don't have and this makes you passionate about it. Personally I don't think there is anything wrong with that. As for "snake oils" and scams. Yes there are many things out there that are, but our history is littered with examples of people who have brought forth information about certain things that seemed ludicris or crazy. The ideas were met with scorn and the messanger labeled a quack or worse. Many times history has vindicated this person. I'm reminded of this quote " Truth will only make you unpopular.- WOLFGANG BORCHERT, The Outsider.

I personally have healed ailments for myself and my family using certain "snake oils". That is not to say that I believe everything I am told. I generally try to approach new things with an open mind and learn as much as I can before taking action with something. It's hard talking about something you believe in when your getting crapped on for it - particularly in a public forum. I know I've been there.

With all that being said. I am not taking sides here. I just want to learn more. People who think MMS is a scam are free to think so - they can post their opinion that they disagree with you and call it a day.

You know it gets ugly in the vax forum quite alot too. I suppose when you have a group of people who have opposite points of view and you throw passion and emotions into the mix, things are bound to get ugly from time to time. Frankly it's sad. I believe wholeheartedly in the law of attraction. What you are put out into the universe is what you get back. So if one is spewing negativity and venom, that person will somehow, someway get that back in their life. Who knows, maybe that belief makes me a kooky hippie
 

[Panserbjorne]

Originally Posted by Marnica 

I have to agree with you here. The mudslinging is unbearable. To Calm for what it's worth, I appreciate your taking the time to speak about your experiences with MMS and what you know. I am interested in learning more and open to your point of view and looking into opposing points of view as well. I also do not believe that you have bad intentions or are hawking anything. I believe you have knowledge and experience with MMS that most people don't have and this makes you passionate about it. Personally I don't think there is anything wrong with that. As for "snake oils" and scams. Yes there are many things out there that are, but our history is littered with examples of people who have brought forth information about certain things that seemed ludicris or crazy. The ideas were met with scorn and the messanger labeled a quack or worse. Many times history has vindicated this person. I'm reminded of this quote " Truth will only make you unpopular.- WOLFGANG BORCHERT, The Outsider.

I personally have healed ailments for myself and my family using certain "snake oils". That is not to say that I believe everything I am told. I generally try to approach new things with an open mind and learn as much as I can before taking action with something. It's hard talking about something you believe in when your getting crapped on for it - particularly in a public forum. I know I've been there.

With all that being said. I am not taking sides here. I just want to learn more. People who think MMS is a scam are free to think so - they can post their opinion that they disagree with you and call it a day.

You know it gets ugly in the vax forum quite alot too. I suppose when you have a group of people who have opposite points of view and you throw passion and emotions into the mix, things are bound to get ugly from time to time. Frankly it's sad. I believe wholeheartedly in the law of attraction. What you are put out into the universe is what you get back. So if one is spewing negativity and venom, that person will somehow, someway get that back in their life. Who knows, maybe that belief makes me a kooky hippie
 

I agree.

[Ldavis24]

I can only say that I get heated at times and I can't be the only person who does...Different issues bring out the ire in different people. 

Anyway sorry for making it hard for people to find the information they are looking for.

I am sorry for MY part in the mudslinging...That won't change my views on MMS but I said my piece and as PP said, I'll call it a day with this conversation.

Edited by Ldavis24 - 4/26/11 at 2:55pm

[chaoticzenmom]

I started this thread in the hopes that the everything that needed to be said about the topic would get to be said.  I know that it's a passionate topic, but the namecalling and insults are not in line with the intent of the thread and threaten the thread itself.  Please refrain from insulting each other.

[oaktreemama]

So if one is spewing negativity and venom, that person will somehow, someway get that back in their life. Who knows, maybe that belief makes me a kooky hippie 

How about people who market a fake cure to desperately ill and dying people? What do they get back I wonder?

I looked at every link Calm has posted and none of it proves anything other than bleach can disinfect hard surfaces-see my posts above. It is not groundbreaking, it is not a cure for AIDS, it is not a cure for cancer, it is not a cure for malaria. Frankly the easiest fix for malaria is providing people with mosquito nets.

Go figure-talk about a natural method for stopping the spread of a disease!!

[Marnica]

I think they would get back what they put out. So if they were intentionally trying to decieve and harm people, than they would be victims of decit and harm themselves at some point.  As I stated in my previous post, Im not declaring I believe MMS to be a cure for anything. Im not agreeing with Calm or disagreeing.  I simply don't have enough information and look forward to doing my own research and coming to my own conclusion. You have obviously done yours and come to your conclusion which is fine. What I objected to is the level of nastiness that seemed to permeate this thread.

Lauren - sorry if you feel what I posted was personal - it wasn't. That is just the way I try to "be" yk? It helps keep me grounded. Believe me I can get heated and passionate about things I feel strongly about, I just try and express things in a way that might be perceived as positive because I want positive things in my life. I understand the belief in the law of attraction won't appeal to some but it's just what I believe! You know I respect your opinions as we have communicated privately. I suppose I just want us all to get along as childish a sentiment as that may be  Again sorry if my statements offended you.
 

Originally Posted by oaktreemama 

How about people who market a fake cure to desperately ill and dying people? What do they get back I wonder?

I looked at every link Calm has posted and none of it proves anything other than bleach can disinfect hard surfaces-see my posts above. It is not groundbreaking, it is not a cure for AIDS, it is not a cure for cancer, it is not a cure for malaria. Frankly the easiest fix for malaria is providing people with mosquito nets.

Go figure-talk about a natural method for stopping the spread of a disease!!

[Ldavis24]

Originally Posted by Marnica 
Lauren - sorry if you feel what I posted was personal - it wasn't. That is just the way I try to "be" yk? It helps keep me grounded. Believe me I can get heated and passionate about things I feel strongly about, I just try and express things in a way that might be perceived as positive because I want positive things in my life. I understand the belief in the law of attraction won't appeal to some but it's just what I believe! You know I respect your opinions as we have communicated privately. I suppose I just want us all to get along as childish a sentiment as that may be  Again sorry if my statements offended you. 

 

[stik]

mbravebird, I'm sorry to hear about your father's illness.  Does his doctor know he is taking MMS?  Bleach really is toxic, but the effects of the toxicity are presented as "evidence" that MMS is working, so people who are desperate for hope can cling to the idea that they are being cured.  Do you feel comfortable bringing this up with your father's MD?  

I would caution you that most of the information on MMS on the internet is posted by salespeople.  I don't know who's coordinating the effort if not Jim Humble, but there is certainly a coordinated massive effort to make sure that any criticism of MMS online is responded to with a positive rebuttal.  Most of the rebuttals look pretty similar - I am confident that somewhere there is a form that the MMS marketing people are using.   I would urge you to stick to known sources (like government and consumer agencies that you trust for information on other matters) when looking for info on MMS.  Look out for message boards.  
 

Originally Posted by mbravebird 

I am having a really hard time seeing the information past all the insults. Could you all carry the insults to PM, and keep it strictly information-based here? I really want to understand more about this, as my father was recently diagnosed with stage 4 cancer, has started MMS, and is having side effects. I lean toward suspicion of the substance, especially given the awful side effects, but I am still open to learning more about it. I will be looking at the links provided as I have time.

For me, it is emotionally difficult to read people's insults to each other, and it makes me suspicious of information that comes from anyone who speaks/writes like that. Think of it as good discipline for your point of view, to present your argument clearly, cogently, and without insults. I could really use a facts-based discussion of the issue, so that I could pass it along to my father as he makes a decision about whether or not to continue on.

I continue to be grateful for the exchange of information I can find on MDC.