"Monks of Mt. Athos" on 60 Minutes

[Tradd]

Mods: I'm putting this here rather than under the general Spirituality area, as I suspect it might spark some debate. As some of you ask questions or show an interest in Orthodox Christianity, I thought this would be of interest... Yesterday evening on Easter Sunday/Orthodox Pascha, 60 Minutes aired an incredible two segment piece on the Monks of Mt. Athos, which is an autonomous region in northern Greece, devoted solely to Orthodox male monasticism for over 1000 years. If you didn't watch, you can view it online in two parts, including a behind the scenes web only piece. Part 1: http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7363712n&tag=contentMain;contentAux Part 2: http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7363715n&tag=topnews CBS Overtime (behind the scenes): http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504803_162-20056220-10391709.html?tag=strip I thought it was in general a very respectful view on Mt. Athos. Bob Simon had interviewed the Ecumenical Patriarch last year and showed considerable ignorance in his questions (comparing the Phanar, the EP's HQ in Istanbul as "the Orthodox Vatican" and referring to a "college of cardinals" and to the EP as "the pope," which are totally incorrect). Watch and share your thoughts and comments. And please remember MDC's UA - I'm only mentioning that because some of the comments on 60 Minutes' FB page and the 60 Minutes website itself were very combative.

[lilyka]

Thanks for sharing these links.  I was in awe as I watched.  And I thought the overtime segment was awesome.

I read the comments and didn't think they were bad.  A few people got their knickers in a know over the whole no women thing.   of course.  it is important to note that not all men are allowed to come either.   I know people who have been and are going and the process involved.  Its is not easy to get a blessing to come.  And of course some people just don't believe in the power of prayer or see the value of devoting your life to praying for the world.

One of the monks said "It looks like a resort but really it is an arena."  So true and wonderfully put.  The serentity of the place and the joy of the monks beguile what a battle is happening there.

I highly recommend everyone watch it.  

.  

And for what it is worth I thought the segment on the EP was wonderful.  It was clear the guy interviewing did not know much but he knew he didn't and approached the EP with reverence and respect and humility.  I think he did a good job of helping people unfamiliar with Orthodoxy gain some perspective on what a powerful position the Ecumenical Patriarch is.  

[Tradd]

I just watched the segment on the EP again online. It was that good only from the EP being allowed express himself. Bob Simon showed a remarkable lack of research for being a 60 Minutes veteran, though.

[Purple Sage]

Thank you for the links. I missed the show when it aired, but I'll try to watch it today. 

I saw a blog post on CNN the other day (here it is) on Mt. Athos, and some of the comments there I felt were a bit harsh.  The ones that express the opinion that the monks aren't contributing to society just make me sad. 

Have you seen The Mysteries of the Jesus Prayer?  I thought that movie was beautiful.

[lilyka]

People will be poopy.  All they see is a bunch of guys living the good life in a medetarainian paradise. (never mind the three hours of sleep or two meals a day)  They do not view prayer as a substantial thing.  They do not see its value.  The thing the report only touched on, and what I think people miss is the number of pilgrims that visit and how little is asked of them.  I know someone who is going and spending a few weeks on Athos and all it will cost him is transportation.  While there he will be fed and given a place to sleep.  He will receive wise counsel and have a chance to find some healing and grounding.  And they will not ask for a dime.  and there so many like him.

These people complain that the monks aren't "doing" anything to help people but they also are not doing anything to hurt people.  The carbon footprint is probably negative. They are off the grid, not contributing to population increase, eat completely sustainably, don't contribute or take away from the economy, use nothing disposable, waste nothing, own very little.  

And i have seen Jesus Prayer several times and loved it.

[Purple Sage]

^^ So true.

I watched the 60 Minutes piece last night.  They did a great job!   Very inspiring and beautiful.

[lilyka]

haha, I read some of the 60 minutes comments.  What struck me is how women just don't get it.  The power of distraction we have . over men.   

What sad is how many are clearly ruled by their lust.  All the comments about ho they must be this kind of sexual deviant or that.  It doesn't seem to occur to someone that when sex i not being constantly thrown at someone it is possible to control themselves (and for many of us it is possible even when everything around is designed to stimulate us sexually).  

Its is a sad world.  Thanks God the holy monks of Athos are praying for us!

[xekomaya]

Thank you for posting this! The video was absolutely breathtaking. I liked the one comment about death being our ticket to the afterlife and heaven. I don't remember what they called it but that giant pile of skulls was really amazing. I am going to be thinking about that for a while. 

Did you Orthodox mamas find it sad that at one of the monasteries - Vatopedi? - all their most beautiful icons were in a vault and the video quickly showed men venerating westernized versions. Made me think of the Panagia Portaitissa.

[Purple Sage]

Originally Posted by xekomaya 

Thank you for posting this! The video was absolutely breathtaking. I liked the one comment about death being our ticket to the afterlife and heaven. I don't remember what they called it but that giant pile of skulls was really amazing. I am going to be thinking about that for a while. 

Did you Orthodox mamas find it sad that at one of the monasteries - Vatopedi? - all their most beautiful icons were in a vault and the video quickly showed men venerating westernized versions. Made me think of the Panagia Portaitissa.

I don't remember the Westernized icons...was that in part 1 or part 2?  I loved it when they showed the icons in the vault - so beautiful!  And so amazingly vibrant for being so old. 

[lilyka]

I too  noticed some of them looked very Western.  Not the old ones in the vault but on the wall..  The Russian school of iconography often seems a little too Western for me.  Even though I have some hanging in my house LOL.  It was surprising though to see them on Athos.  Perhaps they were gifts, too.  The monastaries they showed are some of the bigger, more popular ones for pilgrims    One of them even sells CDs so people outside of Athos are fairly familiar with it.    It seems logical so long as they are properly done acceptable icons they would not object to hanging them.

I recently went to  an exhibit of ancient Ukrainian  art.  2/3 of them were icons some as much as 700 years old  (there is a very large Monastary in Ukraine...the one in the Jesus Prayer movie, which provided the icons for the exhibit.)..It was so amazing to see such treasures.  I was hard not to venerate them.  But I am sure the museum staff would not have been down with that.  ;-)  

[Tradd]

Originally Posted by lilyka 

I too  noticed some of them looked very Western.  Not the old ones in the vault but on the wall..  The Russian school of iconography often seems a little too Western for me.  Even though I have some hanging in my house LOL.  It was surprising though to see them on Athos.  Perhaps they were gifts, too.  The monastaries they showed are some of the bigger, more popular ones for pilgrims    One of them even sells CDs so people outside of Athos are fairly familiar with it.    It seems logical so long as they are properly done acceptable icons they would not object to hanging them.

I recently went to  an exhibit of ancient Ukrainian  art.  2/3 of them were icons some as much as 700 years old  (there is a very large Monastary in Ukraine...the one in the Jesus Prayer movie, which provided the icons for the exhibit.)..It was so amazing to see such treasures.  I was hard not to venerate them.  But I am sure the museum staff would not have been down with that.  ;-)  

It's not just the "Russian school" of iconography being too western. The Greek Cathedral in my city has *very* western icons. The ones shown were part of an iconostasis or icon shrines in the wall.

[xekomaya]

Originally Posted by Purple Sage 

I don't remember the Westernized icons...was that in part 1 or part 2?  I loved it when they showed the icons in the vault - so beautiful!  And so amazingly vibrant for being so old. 

It was almost immediately after the vault so I think that was part 2? It is really amazing how vibrant and beautiful they still are especially considering the ocean air. 

I had a post written out but browser issues and I lost it.. 

Are westernized icons limited to a certain time period? (and is that time period over? lol)  I spend more time than I should googling icons and the interiors of Orthodox churches and I am really surprised by how many very westernized ones I come across. 

And sort of off topic - are icons allowed to have unique backgrounds? I noticed some of the more western ones have clouds. We have a painting called Our lady of Mt. McKinley and I've wondered what makes it an icon or not. I suppose I can always ask my priest. He is very knowledgeable about this stuff and has relegated all the western art to the basement :) 

Anyway.. I think I'm going to end up watching this over and over. I wish there were a documentary on Mt. Athos similar to Into Great Silence

[Purple Sage]

I just watched that part again and saw what you're talking about.  My church has icons like those, too, on the iconostasis.  Here's some pictures I found (they're not mine).  Link 1  Link 2

[Tradd]

Originally Posted by xekomaya 

It was almost immediately after the vault so I think that was part 2? It is really amazing how vibrant and beautiful they still are especially considering the ocean air. 

I had a post written out but browser issues and I lost it.. 

Are westernized icons limited to a certain time period? (and is that time period over? lol)  I spend more time than I should googling icons and the interiors of Orthodox churches and I am really surprised by how many very westernized ones I come across. 

And sort of off topic - are icons allowed to have unique backgrounds? I noticed some of the more western ones have clouds. We have a painting called Our lady of Mt. McKinley and I've wondered what makes it an icon or not. I suppose I can always ask my priest. He is very knowledgeable about this stuff and has relegated all the western art to the basement :) 

Anyway.. I think I'm going to end up watching this over and over. I wish there were a documentary on Mt. Athos similar to Into Great Silence

You will find different backgrounds, sometimes, I've seen things somewhat similar in icons of St. Herman of Alaska or St. Innocent, but first of all, this is explicitly a *painting* - plus the Theotokos and Christ don't have their names - the abbreviations for Theotokos and the ICXC.

In Russia, at least, western influence came in through the west, through Ukraine. You had the Union of Brest-Litvosk in Eastern Europe, in which some Orthodox bishops/priests decided to go into communion with Rome. Thus were born Eastern/Byzantine/Greek Catholics, known sometimes as "Uniates," which is considered a degrogatory term. The Jesuits were active in Ukraine and eastern Europe. The Ukraine in the 1600s was very well-educated, including the Orthodox, and the influence of these priests/bishops/teachers spread to Russia. Did you know that theology in ORTHODOX seminaries in Russia was taught in LATIN? :O

Anyway, the western tastes in art began influencing Orthodox iconography in Ukraine and then Russia. It didn't help that the Russian tsars, beginning with Peter the Great and the "enlightened" Empresses in the 18th Century loved all things Western, considering the traditional ways to be backward and only for the simple people.

These fashions in art also were seen in Greece. Metropolitan Kallistos Ware, in The Orthodox Church, in the chapter on the modern Church in Greece, implies that the western-style was very widespread in Greece. He even mentions that churches in Greece were totally redone in traditional iconography.

In a lot of the older Orthodox parishes in the US, especially those of the OCA, that were part of the American Diocese of the Russian Orthodox Church before the 1917 Revolution, there are iconostases - both the wooden structure and the icons themselves - that were given to these parishes established in the first 15 years of the 20th century by the Tsar himself! As a result of the historical connections, even though the iconography is of western-style, some badly done, there is a reluctance to get rid of the old icons. In fact, in Chicago at Holy Trinity Cathedral, which was built in 1903, it's not only a City of Chicago Landmark, but it's also listed on the National Register of Historic Places. The cathedral was designed by the famous Chicago architect Louis Sullivan, and it's the only Sullivan-designed church in the world that is still functioning as a church. It was built under the leadership of the parish priest, St. John (Kochurov) of Tsarskoe Selo and Chicago, first hieromartyr of the Revolution, and it was consecrated by St. Tikhon of Moscow, who as Archbishop of the American Diocese at the time. Iconostasis and the icons on it were a gift of Nicholas II.

The listings on historical registers can create issues when it comes to renovations and replacing things, on the interior as well as the exterior.

http://www.holytrinitycathedral.net/

Pretty much the same case with St. Mary's (OCA) in Minneapolis, which was the parish of St. Alexis Toth, who brought the Greek Catholic parish into Orthodoxy (along with a whole bunch o'other folks). The iconostasis and icons on it were a gift of Nicholas II.

http://www.stmarysoca.org/about.html

[xekomaya]

Ah thank you! That all makes sense.  Alaska is just too beautiful to leave out of the icons. 

Jokes about the Jesuits and the Union of Brest aside ;)  I also had no idea there were such historical connections with some of the iconostases! I am familiar with the interior of Holy Trinity in Chicago (via google) after Molly Sabourin talked about it's beauty, but I had no idea there was such significant history. Of course it is no wonder parishes don't "just redo" their icons. 

[lilyka]

Icons of more modern saints are going to look less like the old ones.  It makes sense to me that the icons of Alaskan Saints would have Alaska in the background.  It seems that they all have a very similar, stylized back ground to each other which makes since.  You can look at any of them and know "oh, this is an Alaskan saint.  

All of my western-ish icons have come from Russia.  They definitely have their own distinctive look but unlike western icon art interpretations, they stick to the important foundational elements of cannonical iconography.  Similarly are the mostly medal icon popular with the Greeks.  They have a distinctive look but stick to the foundational elements and fit within their school of iconography.  

The Russian icons are not my favorite but we have a bunch in our house.  They are typically cheaper (the mass produced ones) so are nice to give as little gifts.  My children each have one they received as a gift, my first one was one and there was one I could only find in that style (Softener of Evil Hearts...which is usually mis-listed as Our Lady of Seven Sorrows.  They are not the same but very close....).  I have gotten used to it but it as odd to see them in a Greek Monastary.

And on an unrelated note....one of the Fathers in the program was apparently one of my former priests professors when he studied in Greece.  Kinda cool.  I am going to have to listen to the message again to find out specifically how he knows him.

[Bluegoat]

Ah - I have been wanting to watch this show, but the sound on my computer is not working.  As soon as it is fixed I will be looking at it though.

My priest, who's Anglican, came to Christianity after a visit to Mt Athos.  He was there a week as a young man and said he went an atheist and left a confused agnostic.