"You need to have him circumcised"

[mama2landon]

This comment from my dad today came out of left field and just left me floored, not only because I have a 4-year old (sheesh- I could maybe understand if I was still pregnant), but because my dad is intact himself.  I never would have expected an intact man to advocate circumcision at all, let alone on a 4-year old boy!  I was a little uncomfortable with this discussion, because I kind of felt somewhat ambushed- we were talking about new tires for my car at the time - and this seriously came out of nowhere.  And, I know its immature, but I also felt odd talking to my dad about the state of his penis, so I didn't really get into it with him.

I just pointed out that it's not a practice recommended by any health care organizations anymore, that the US is really the only western country where the practice is still common, and that his dad and I felt very strongly against having it done.  My dad's argument was that he's had some horrible, miserable experiences because of his intact state.

I got a chance to talk to my mom a little later, and she told me that when he was in the hospital just recently for kidney cancer, they did a half-circumcision to put a catheter in!   Say what?  Is this kind of practice common?  DS was hospitalized for a few days when he was 3 months old, and nobody said a word about circumcising him to put a cath in.  Of course, I would have screamed bloody murder if they had suggested it, but I don't remember them even retracting him or even mentioning the fact that he was intact, and routine infant circumcision is still very depressingly common in this area. 

Anyway, I just kind of wanted to get a feel for what others thought about this, because I've had a horrible month or two, and I know I'm super emotional right now with being sick (again) and being in lots of pain.  I just feel really angry and sad at the same time- I feel bad for my father for what he went through, but at the same time, I feel angry at the doctors for doing something like that to him.  I mean, I don't know all the medical details, but really?  A circumcision just to put a catheter in?  And I think the worst part is that now my father is advocating circumcision for babies and young boys- I know he has my son's best interests at heart, he doesn't want his grandson to suffer through the things he has, but I can't help but be angry anyway.

[Drummer's Wife]

Weird.  I'd want to know why he thought it was a good idea for his grandson - except, yeah, uncomfortable convo with one's dad.  Can your mom clarify? 

Like your DS, my oldest was hospitalized at 3 months and needed a catheter (with him it was surgery) - no way was it a problem that he was intact, and knowing adult males who are intact, I can't see any reason w/o something else going on down there why circ'ing for a foley catheter would be necessary.  I mean, they retract to pee, for goodness sake, why would the foreskin be in the way?  Especially with an adult - and as we know, it doesn't get in the way with cathing a small boy, either. 

Hopefully you aren't letting it get to you too much - sounds like your dad is upset about what he went through recently. Doesn't change the fact that you made the right decision 4 years ago, yk?

[MCatLvrMom2A&X]

The only reason I can think of that they would have had to do a circ for a cath is if your father had true phimosis from scare tissue. Other than that it makes no sense at all to do a circ for a cath.

[Agatha_Ann]

It sounds like your dad just went through a traumatic experience and he is showing love and concern for his grandson through a convolted way of thinking. I would imagine he is thinking if you get it out of the way now, he won't have to go through what recently happened to your father. I know it doesn't make a lot of sense logically, but I bet that is what's going on.

My FIL was intact for 50 years and had to be circ'd. He is the biggest fan of circ-ing and I really think that is why. He forgets about the 50 years of no problems, and focuses on the one bad day...and then somehow thinks putting his grandsons through that as infants (or young children) will save them in the long run.

Edited by Agatha_Ann - 4/26/11 at 6:41pm

[PuppyFluffer]

I'm curious what your father's problems have been with his foreskin.  I have talked to a few adult men who thought it should be done because they have had trouble with their foreskins (note that their personal troubles have not been troublesome enough for THEM to get circumcised!).  Without  exception these men were retracting and washing their penis with soap, disrupting the natural flora balance with abrasive soap and having irritation and trouble consequently. 

[mama2landon]

I am Teh Suckage when it comes to multi-quotes, so these are just random replies to everybody's posts.  Thank you all for your replies.

PuppyFluffer- I think you are on to something here about the foreskin problems.  I know that when DS was a baby, my dad told my mom that she should be retracting DS and washing him with soap (she watches DS in the evenings while I work), and I had to correct her on that.  That reminds me that I need to bring it up with her again, just to ensure that she isn't given DS incorrect advice when he's in the bathtub. 

To other PPs, like I said, I don't know all the details of why the doctors felt that it was necessary to partially circumcise him.  Even phimosis can be dealt with non-surgically, can't it?  I thought there were steroid creams and such that could be applied topically to help with that?  Even my mom was sketchy on the details, evidently she didn't know about it until it was either a done deal or immediately before it was to be done.  The thing is, my dad isn't one to question doctors- neither of my parents are, really.  They are really old-school, "doctors are gods" kind of people.  So if the doctor said "You need to be cut", then yeah, I could see my dad signing on without much of a question.  Especially when he was in such a vulnerable state already, his sister had just passed away from cancer a few months previous, and then he is told that he has to have a kidney removed because of cancer.  I would imagine that would put someone in a state where you just follow doctors orders because you are scared to death.

In any case, I've calmed down a bit since then, and really tried to focus on the fact that I know he was coming from a place of genuine love and concern for my son.  He dotes on DS, and I know that he was just thinking of sparing DS the kind of pain he's been through.  I just felt kind of jumped on at the time, you know?
 

[MCatLvrMom2A&X]

Yes there are other treatments that are very effective for true phimosis. One being steroid cream with stretching, then there is inserting a balloon into the opening and stretching it that way using local anesthetic or manual stretching with local, then there is a dorsel slit that allows for retraction without loosing any foreskin at all. Circ is the very last option that should be considered only after exhausting the two I mentioned above.

[mama2landon]

Thank you, that's what I was thinking.  I really have no idea if any of these things were tried with him or not, and I feel a little awkward asking him about it.  I did talk to my mom briefly after I posted, and she mentioned that she wasn't aware of any problems at all.  She found out about the circ after it was done- so, yeah... Really weird, all the way around.
 

Originally Posted by MCatLvrMom2A&X 

Yes there are other treatments that are very effective for true phimosis. One being steroid cream with stretching, then there is inserting a balloon into the opening and stretching it that way using local anesthetic or manual stretching with local, then there is a dorsel slit that allows for retraction without loosing any foreskin at all. Circ is the very last option that should be considered only after exhausting the two I mentioned above.

[sapphire_chan]

Tell your dad that if more men in the U.S. were intact that doctors and nurses would be forced to learn how to treat intact penises properly instead of just cutting off foreskins whenever they became slightly inconvenient. "for instance dad, if you'd been in Australia for your kidney treatment,  no one would've thought about cutting part of your penis off just to put in a catheter!"

(Note: only because your dad brought you your ds's penis.)

[eepster]

I don't suppose your dad would want to sue the Dr, or at least file some kind of grievance.

[hakunangovi]

Originally Posted by mama2landon 

Thank you, that's what I was thinking.  I really have no idea if any of these things were tried with him or not, and I feel a little awkward asking him about it.  I did talk to my mom briefly after I posted, and she mentioned that she wasn't aware of any problems at all.  She found out about the circ after it was done- so, yeah... Really weird, all the way around.
 

This scenario IS very wierd.  As awkward as it may feel anticipating a conversation about this, I think that in reality it would be much less so.  I would encourage you to sit down with your Dad and ask him about it.  Then you can gently explain what you know, and what his doctors evidently did not.

[4chunut1]

Originally Posted by mama2landon 

This comment from my dad today came out of left field and just left me floored, not only because I have a 4-year old (sheesh- I could maybe understand if I was still pregnant), but because my dad is intact himself.  I never would have expected an intact man to advocate circumcision at all, let alone on a 4-year old boy!  I was a little uncomfortable with this discussion, because I kind of felt somewhat ambushed- we were talking about new tires for my car at the time - and this seriously came out of nowhere.  And, I know its immature, but I also felt odd talking to my dad about the state of his penis, so I didn't really get into it with him.

I just pointed out that it's not a practice recommended by any health care organizations anymore, that the US is really the only western country where the practice is still common, and that his dad and I felt very strongly against having it done.  My dad's argument was that he's had some horrible, miserable experiences because of his intact state.

I got a chance to talk to my mom a little later, and she told me that when he was in the hospital just recently for kidney cancer, they did a half-circumcision to put a catheter in!   Say what?  Is this kind of practice common?  DS was hospitalized for a few days when he was 3 months old, and nobody said a word about circumcising him to put a cath in.  Of course, I would have screamed bloody murder if they had suggested it, but I don't remember them even retracting him or even mentioning the fact that he was intact, and routine infant circumcision is still very depressingly common in this area. 

Anyway, I just kind of wanted to get a feel for what others thought about this, because I've had a horrible month or two, and I know I'm super emotional right now with being sick (again) and being in lots of pain.  I just feel really angry and sad at the same time- I feel bad for my father for what he went through, but at the same time, I feel angry at the doctors for doing something like that to him.  I mean, I don't know all the medical details, but really?  A circumcision just to put a catheter in?  And I think the worst part is that now my father is advocating circumcision for babies and young boys- I know he has my son's best interests at heart, he doesn't want his grandson to suffer through the things he has, but I can't help but be angry anyway.

I really feel bad for both you, and your father.  For your father, because he underwent  traumatic penal surgery that probably was not necessary, and for you, because your father is now advocating circumcision,  really "the wrong thing, for the right reason."  And that reason being, as you stated, your son's "best interests" at heart, which is totally understandable, but a circumcision will take away something valuable to him forever that will likely NEVER be necessary...
 

Originally Posted by MCatLvrMom2A&X 

The only reason I can think of that they would have had to do a circ for a cath is if your father had true phimosis from scare tissue. Other than that it makes no sense at all to do a circ for a cath.

If your father had phimosis, which would have prevented retraction enough to insert a catheter, or would have compressed the urethra such that the catheter would not drain properly, a simple dorsal slit would have alleviated both of those problems.  All the foreskin could have been saved with a much less invasive procedure.
 

Originally Posted by Agatha_Ann 

It sounds like your dad just went through a traumatic experience and he is showing love and concern for his grandson through a convolted way of thinking. I would imagine he is thinking if you get it out of the way now, he won't have to go through what recently happened to your father. I know it doesn't make a lot of sense logically, but I bet that is what's going on. 

I agree...the concern is legitimate, but the solution is not correct...

My FIL was intact for 50 years and had to be circ'd. He is the biggest fan of circ-ing and I really think that is why. He forgets about the 50 years of no problems, and focuses on the one bad day...and then somehow thinks putting his grandsons through that as infants (or young children) will save them in the long run.

And I wonder why that was necessary also..??   But I can see why the two men would hold similiar views...

Originally Posted by mama2landon 

I am Teh Suckage when it comes to multi-quotes, so these are just random replies to everybody's posts.  Thank you all for your replies.

PuppyFluffer- I think you are on to something here about the foreskin problems.  I know that when DS was a baby, my dad told my mom that she should be retracting DS and washing him with soap...

  I wonder if he was doing that himself when he bathed.  If so, I don't think he had phimosis.  Do you know, or could you find out from your mother if your dad was retractable before his cancer treatment..??

That reminds me that I need to bring it up with her again, just to ensure that she isn't given DS incorrect advice when he's in the bathtub.

Is your son retractable now age 4..??  If so, he could be doing the retracting himself...

To other PPs, like I said, I don't know all the details of why the doctors felt that it was necessary to partially circumcise him.

At an opportune time, maybe you could talk to your Dad about that...  As you said, that may not be comfortable, but since he broached the subject first with you, he may not be as uncomfortable with the subject as you might expect, and you can clear up some misconceptions with him...

Even phimosis can be dealt with non-surgically, can't it?

Yes, definitely, although this would not be applicable for your Dad at the time of his hospitalization. 

I thought there were steroid creams and such that could be applied topically to help with that?  Even my mom was sketchy on the details, evidently she didn't know about it until it was either a done deal or immediately before it was to be done.  The thing is, my dad isn't one to question doctors- neither of my parents are, really.  They are really old-school, "doctors are gods" kind of people.  So if the doctor said "You need to be cut", then yeah, I could see my dad signing on without much of a question.  Especially when he was in such a vulnerable state already, his sister had just passed away from cancer a few months previous, and then he is told that he has to have a kidney removed because of cancer.  I would imagine that would put someone in a state where you just follow doctors orders because you are scared to death.

Very understandable...  It was likely not decided until the problem with the cath insertion.  Michigan is still a pretty high-circ state, and that was probably the first, or only choice given your Dad. 

In any case, I've calmed down a bit since then, and really tried to focus on the fact that I know he was coming from a place of genuine love and concern for my son.  He dotes on DS, and I know that he was just thinking of sparing DS the kind of pain he's been through.  I just felt kind of jumped on at the time, you know?
 

Originally Posted by mama2landon 

Thank you, that's what I was thinking.  I really have no idea if any of these things were tried with him or not, and I feel a little awkward asking him about it.  I did talk to my mom briefly after I posted, and she mentioned that she wasn't aware of any problems at all.  She found out about the circ after it was done- so, yeah... Really weird, all the way around.
 

Could this be a recent problem...??  "Phimosis due to balanitis xerotica obliterans (BXO), a chronic, progressive, hardening skin inflammation of the penis, has been considered the one common absolute indication for circumcision."

http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/phimosis

I'm not sure I'd agree with the highlighted portion from the reference...

Originally Posted by hakunangovi 

This scenario IS very wierd.  As awkward as it may feel anticipating a conversation about this, I think that in reality it would be much less so.  I would encourage you to sit down with your Dad and ask him about it.  Then you can gently explain what you know, and what his doctors evidently did not.

I agree...  Even if he dosen't want to talk about his particular situation, you can explain your reasoning again about why you are leaving your son intact.  You can assure your dad that you care all aspects of his health, no only his kidney problem...