Defiant 4 year old

[seawitch]

Generally I get what's going on.  DH moved out and then moved back in.  We moved across country from a house to an apartment, and now we're going to be moving cross country again within a matter of months from the first move.  Their father has mental health issues so he's unpredictable (not violent, just mood swings etc.) and he yells (not at them, but just in general).  That's a lot for a little kid to deal with.  I try to surround them with peaceful, gentle influences, stability as much as possible... routines, physical surroundings, time with friends, etc.  They thrive on routine.

But we're also going through a patch where DS will not listen to us at all.  Not the least bit.  All day I'm telling him what to do and he's not happy with it. (Granted, the things I tell him are things like no running in the apartment because we have neighbors who complain, or no darting off from me in the street - 4 year old DS has become a runner and takes off on me in the city streets, and if I try to hold his hand he'll just scream and noodle like a one year old... so I have to leash him which he doesn't like, etc.) I don't try to boss him around but whenever I tell him ANYTHING he just completely ignores me. "Don't talk right now" or "stay in bed" or "please don't splash water" or "don't take food out of the kitchen" - and he just does it anyway.  I can't take him out in public because right now he's not cooperating with anything.  I try to take him to the library and he literally climbs the shelves or starts running.  I take him in an elevator and he tries to press the emergency buttons.  I take him home and I tell him to please be quiet because it's quiet hours and he stomps his feet on purpose. 

We try to give him consequences but it's a total fail.  DH believes in time outs and I'm fine with that, but he will just get up.  "Sit on this chair so you can calm down" and he will immediately get up.  Immediately.  Or "sit on my lap so you can refocus" - he will hit and kick.  Or he will scream on purpose because he knows we have to be quiet at night time because there are neighbors.  Or he refuses to clean up his toys, fine, DH will give him the consequence that he loses the toys because he can't take care of them... and he will just go over to where DH put them away and get them, or try to.  We always try to talk to him nicely EVERY TIME at first, and then he will just ignore us, until we end up yelling at him because he just willfully ignores us.  For example, with the food.  "Food stays in the kitchen! (cheerful voice)  If you're not sitting at the table it must mean you're not hungry."  He gets up 10 seconds later, and we take the food away because that's the rule.  He will immediately go into the fridge and get himself something else to try to take out of the kitchen.  We take it away from him and either remove him from the situation until he screams and hits us, or else put him back at the table with the food - and he will just get up, and up, and up.  Then one of us will end up losing our temper, DH might start yelling, and then he cries and screams angrily...It's miserable... 

He will take off running from me in the street and that is DANGEROUS.  It's not like he needs the space to run, he can do that at numerous opportunities at the park etc., but he will do it just because he doesn't want to hold my hand - he'll hit it and run away.  And I'm usually running at full speed carrying a crying 3 year old DD, groceries, etc.  Or if I leash him he'll kick and bite me cos he doesn't like it...  If I try to take him to the grocery store, DD will be sitting in the cart and DS will be just running around grabbing things, and while I have patience for a bit he will just... he will end up screaming at me that he hates me if I tell him we have to leave now because he can't handle the store.  Or he'll growl and scream.  If I try to put HIM in the cart he just pitches a fit and refuses to - and he's strong for a 4 year old.  We talk about how to act in a store BEFORE we go, try to model out proper behavior, even offer to bribe him if he's good.... but nothing works.

He behaves well for his teachers and grandma, it's just for me and DH that he's so incredibly defiant. 

I tell him daily how much I love him and how it makes me feel when he does dangerous things, and he always says he will listen better... but the next day is the same, and the day after that, and the day after that...

We have no such problems with our 3 year old DD, for the record.  She has normal toddler tantrums and tests limits and everything but she's not defiant. 

[Mittsy]

Have you considered putting him in therapy? It sounds like he's been /going through quite a bit in a short period of time, and most of those behaviors could be linked to the stress in his life.

[seawitch]

Therapy isn't an option at this point.

[Veslemor]

My son is also four, so I can relate.  I am fortunate enough to live in a house and not an apartment, so a lot of the noise is not as much of an issue.  Hopefully when you move you can find a house.  I think it's pretty obvious that most of this is a control issue.  Who has power?  Who should be in control?  Does your son have a right to feel powerful in his life?  We gave up on time outs a long time ago for the simple fact that if you're having a power struggle, it is a miserable and useless thing to try to get a kid to take one.  Restraining a person while they scream, hit, kick, and bite you is an insane way to bring order and peace into your family.

The two best things I have found for having happiness in my house are getting rid of the TV (movies, games, etc), and getting outside.  When we are outside having fun, there are no problems.  By outside, I mean someplace where running out into a parking lot or street is not going to happen.  I don't know how urban you are and if this is even possible for you, but for my kids it is key.  When I'm engaging with them and not expecting them to entertain themselves for long periods, they aren't so defiant.

I never take my kids shopping anymore.  I would rather buy groceries at 10pm or 5am when everyone's asleep then go thru that.  It's easier, I get a break from parenting, and I make better food choices when I'm not feeling stressed out.  I don't really take them anywhere that I know isn't kid friendly.  We got invited to a party at a bachelor friend's place, and opted not to go because there's no way my kids wouldn't destroy something.  It's also pretty rare that we go to the library either.  They have to be in a really nice calm frame of mind for me to even consider it.  My library has automatic doors that open to a parking lot followed by a busy street corner, so it's not a good place for us.  BTW I used to be one of the people who answered the emergency calls from elevators, and it's always kids who push those buttons.  You would be in good company if your kid did it too.  Unless you have a stroller, go ahead and take the stairs because it wears the kids out.

Running out into traffic.  Your kid is defiant of all your rules, so he doesn't care about Rules.  Mine too.  With traffic, I just finally got real with him.  "See those cars going by?  Do you think you would survive if one ran you over and smashed your body?  I don't think you would.  That happens sometimes.  Kids have run out in front of a car, the driver didn't see them, and their body got smooshed.  Kids hold adult's hands around cars because drivers see adults; they don't see kids."  We  have this talk every few months, his eyes grow really huge, and he holds my hand.  I don't usually use scare tactics, and I don't even feel like this is a "tactic" at all.  It's just true.

Power games are a big help, but it requires a lot of patience and letting go on your part.  Check out Playful Parenting by Cohen or Naomi Aldort's book on the why and how.  An example would be when you're folding laundry, you say, "Oh it's so nice that the laundry is in these neat stacks.  I folded them SO nicely."  But you're really egging your kids on.  Your son will take the bait, and you need to make sure your daughter does too.  Pretty soon the whole room is covered in clothes and you're having an overdramitic fit and they're laughing.  Then you gather up the clothes and start re-folding.  It happens again.  You have to commit to the game and let them rule.  Let them decide when it ends.  It may not.  You might be folding and putting away clothes after they go to bed.  But they'll get the feeling of being powerful (very important for the daughter who obeys) and they'll seek out these games rather than trying to be powerful by disobeying (or complying in the case of the girl).

Maybe you can do this with eating outside of the kitchen?  Maybe not of there's carpet and a damage deposit involved.  Perhaps you can change things around for eating,  like rearrange and have him decide where the table goes.  Or do picnic style meals on a blanket in another room or outside.  He has no interest in eating where someone else says he has to, so I think changing the power structure of where eating happens would help.

[seawitch]

We are in an urban environment where it's not safe to be out and about.  We try to go to the park every day but there are limits to how much we can, and it's an event - have to go out in the car and drive somewhere, as our neighborhood is just too dangerous.

I have to do my shopping with them because there's no one else who can watch them.  So they always have to come with me.  No matter where I go.  I haven't really gone anywhere "for me" for years, since before I got pregnant with DS.  Wow, half a decade now, lol.  No spiritual groups, no bookstores, no coffee shop, no movie, no clothes shopping, etc.  Can't afford a babysitter... They do get daycare a few times a week but I have to do work stuff then, and its' only 3 hours 3 times a week.

We have to stay in the kitchen for eating because the apt is covered in white carpet and it can't be stained or we don't get our deposit back.  We've tried putting down sheets and stuff but then he has to stay on the sheets and it's the same struggle as staying in the kitchen.  We've tried to make it fun like "let's have a picnic on the kitchen floor" or matter of fact and he doesn't care...

You're right.  It is a control issue.  I bet the little guy feels totally out of control.  I feel very bad for him and I want him to feel safe and secure... I'm at a bit of a loss because DD is handling things just fine, and I moved cross-continent when I wasn't much older than him and I didn't have any issues like this, so I'm having a hard time getting where he's coming from.  We moved every year when I was a kid and we are going to be facing a lot of moving in our future as well.  I want him to feel safe and in control of things to his capabilities, but I'm struggling.

Patience is hard to come by when there's SO much going on for us as a family.  Just ONE of the issues would be enough to set the average family back but we're dealing with a LOT.  Health issues, possible terminal illness, unemployment, housing issues, separation and potential divorce, moving a bunch of times, having to move in with my mother, therapy, low income, no health insurance... just thing after thing after thing.  I'm trying to stay sane so I can devote as much patience to him as possible but it's so, so hard.  I'm going to do some more visualizations and meditations; those have always helped in the past.  (Breathing in gold, breathing out black, that sort of thing.)

Oh, and re: traffic... just a few months ago his cat got hit by a car and he died.  I didn't hide it from them (they saw it happen) and they saw me cry, and we all pet him as we said goodbye, and that was that.  They still talk about it sometimes, not in a traumatized sort of way, but that Figaro died because he got smooshed by a car and that would happen to us if we went in front of a car, and it would hurt a lot like when I fell down the stairs, etc etc.  So they... they "get" it... To the extent that a four year old can understand that sort of thing, I think, which I know isn't the same way an adult can, but... but he still does it.  =(  And he will try to leave our apartment in the middle of the night (we're not allowed to put up additional locks from the inside) and he will stand on the window ledge even though he knows he's not allowed because he could fall out, and he's like, "and then I would die, right mom?"  Yeah, buddy, that's what would happen...  =/

Oh, and they're also 99% media free.  They were TV free before we moved and since we've moved they watch the occasional movie but they're still not TV junkies.  Like a movie a week.  They watched a lot for a few weeks right when we moved but we since moved the TV out of their living area and they don't really miss it.

I like the laundry game idea, and see how that could translate into other areas too.  The only issue I can see is that they'd get too noisy and run around, and then the neighbors come upstairs to yell at us and it's stressful...  So I tend to be all neurotic telling them to please shush in the apartment etc.  And we just don't have the money to be out and about all day and night just so they can stretch their legs.  Ugh.  Can't wait to move out of this place, but then we'll be with MY mother, whom *I* have control issues with, lol.

Oh, and stairs - well in our apartment anyway they locked the stairwells because people were getting raped and mugged in them... so the elevator is the only way to go. ;)

Edited by seawitch - 4/29/11 at 11:38am

[hakeber]

Originally Posted by MagnoliaDragon 

We are in an urban environment where it's not safe to be out and about.  We try to go to the park every day but there are limits to how much we can, and it's an event - have to go out in the car and drive somewhere, as our neighborhood is just too dangerous.

Is there a way to get there by Public Transport? Is there a restaurant with a play space he can romp in?  We used to take DS to this indoor play space with a food court across the way so I could shoe shop without also running interference.  It was a godsend.  They are not easy to find but a lot of shopping centers have them now...It might be a good way to get some alone time... 

I have to do my shopping with them because there's no one else who can watch them.  So they always have to come with me.  No matter where I go.  I haven't really gone anywhere "for me" for years, since before I got pregnant with DS.  Wow, half a decade now, lol.  No spiritual groups, no bookstores, no coffee shop, no movie, no clothes shopping, etc.  Can't afford a babysitter... They do get daycare a few times a week but I have to do work stuff then, and its' only 3 hours 3 times a week.

Five years is too long to not have any you time.  Doesn't their dad ever give you a break?  Can't you leave him in charge sometimes, or are things really that bad?  If things really are that bad, can I ask why you would let him come back to live with you?  You must be just exhausted!

Can you have essential items delivered and then wait until he is fed, rested and calm to do the shopping?  Most Urban grocery stores deliver for free.

We have to stay in the kitchen for eating because the apt is covered in white carpet and it can't be stained or we don't get our deposit back.  We've tried putting down sheets and stuff but then he has to stay on the sheets and it's the same struggle as staying in the kitchen.  We've tried to make it fun like "let's have a picnic on the kitchen floor" or matter of fact and he doesn't care...

Can you get that platic sheeting stuff that goes over the carpet, wall to wall, or is that too much money right now?  I cannot imagine being terrified of letting my kids ruin the house.  I just gave up on the deposits for our apartments ages ago, and suck it up as the price of my sanity.  Is that maybe something you could consider doing?

You're right.  It is a control issue.  I bet the little guy feels totally out of control.  I feel very bad for him and I want him to feel safe and secure... I'm at a bit of a loss because DD is handling things just fine, and I moved cross-continent when I wasn't much older than him and I didn't have any issues like this, so I'm having a hard time getting where he's coming from.  We moved every year when I was a kid and we are going to be facing a lot of moving in our future as well.  I want him to feel safe and in control of things to his capabilities, but I'm struggling.

Patience is hard to come by when there's SO much going on for us as a family.  Just ONE of the issues would be enough to set the average family back but we're dealing with a LOT.  Health issues, possible terminal illness, unemployment, housing issues, separation and potential divorce, moving a bunch of times, having to move in with my mother, therapy, low income, no health insurance... just thing after thing after thing.  I'm trying to stay sane so I can devote as much patience to him as possible but it's so, so hard.  I'm going to do some more visualizations and meditations; those have always helped in the past.  (Breathing in gold, breathing out black, that sort of thing.)

Wow!  That's a lot on one person's plate.  There has to be someone you can get some help from...I am going to meditate on this and see if the universe can't send you someone to help you.  You need a break.  You guys need help!

So...here's what I can see about the boy...He's four, so already he may be dealing with a hormonal shift from toddler-hood to big kid, and that takes a toll on a lot of kids' attitudes.  They can become defiant, and needy at the same time.  Emotional and stand offish at the same time!  It's enough to drive one crazy even under relatively stable conditions. Add to that environmental stress, fear, and anger and you have a ticking time-bomb of a child in your arms.  I see there that somebody is in therapy, and that is good, but you may want to see if the local school district or a local community center might have someone for your boy to talk to, even a spiritual leader?  It doesn't hurt to ask.  A lot of these places offer free counselling and a safe place for kids.  They might even be able to offer other help.  Sometimes you don't even need to be a member.  Ask and you shall receive is often the motto.

I think restraint and time-outs are not working or you wouldn't be posting here, and perhaps going the other direction might help.  Give him more leeway and see what he does with the responsibility.  At first it will mean a lot of consistent boundary drawing, but in time I am sure he will respect that you respect him.

Have you asked him why he runs away when you ask him to stay close?  Maybe there is a need for space, or distance and you can reach a compromise.  It was at this age that DS started needing more space on the sidewalk so we agreed he was allowed to walk five squares ahead of me no more, and he got three warnings, and if he didn't stop when asked to, I scooped him up and we went home, no matter what.  I was able to explain my fears, too.  It helped to know in a calm collected way that I was TERRIFIED of him running across the street because the drivers are very wreckless here and because he was still too short to be seen by the drivers he would be smushed. I showed him a shmushed frog that had been run over by a car and said "I don't want that to be YOU."  It was graphic, but it got through to him AFTER I made the direct connection to MY FEARS.  Before that it was just a oooh look a squished frog.  That would hurt.  But he didn't get why that meant I was screeching like a Banshee everytime he tried to cross without holding my hand.  I had to connect those dots for him.

I think it is also tell that most of his defiance is about putting himself in danger...I bet that gets QUITE a dramatic reaction out of you.  I bet he is feeling a little unimportant with the magnitude of all the other stuff in your life.  He may need to reconnect with you a little.  It may be his way of trying to pull you out of your stress and engage with him the only way he knows how.  Just a possibile thought.

Oh, and re: traffic... just a few months ago his cat got hit by a car and he died.  I didn't hide it from them (they saw it happen) and they saw me cry, and we all pet him as we said goodbye, and that was that.  They still talk about it sometimes, not in a traumatized sort of way, but that Figaro died because he got smooshed by a car and that would happen to us if we went in front of a car, and it would hurt a lot like when I fell down the stairs, etc etc.  So they... they "get" it... To the extent that a four year old can understand that sort of thing, I think, which I know isn't the same way an adult can, but... but he still does it.  =(  And he will try to leave our apartment in the middle of the night (we're not allowed to put up additional locks from the inside) and he will stand on the window ledge even though he knows he's not allowed because he could fall out, and he's like, "and then I would die, right mom?"  Yeah, buddy, that's what would happen...  =/

Yes, but does he know how truly SCARED that makes you...Does he understand the visceral reaction it creates in you?  I had to really sit my DS down at that age and explain how afraid I was, to say, it's is like the worst most scary nightmare EVER and it makes mommy want to cry and hit something to think of him even getting hurt and I can't sleep at night when I get so scared thinking of that.  I had to make the emotional connection and then he started to get it a lot better.  Have you had that sort of talk with him?  Have you asked him, when everyone is calm, what need he is trying to fill? Have you discussed other ways to fill that need?

Also...not allowed to add extra locks?  In a dangerous neighborhood?  Just do it, Just put a chain lock on up high, or add a dead bolt to the top.  It's your apartment while you are there, you have the right to secure the safety of your family.  I don't know of any state that would come down on the side of the landlord over that one.  Put a chain lock in and explain to the landlord that you have asleep walking child who MUST be protected.  End of story. 

Oh, and they're also 99% media free.  They were TV free before we moved and since we've moved they watch the occasional movie but they're still not TV junkies.  Like a movie a week.  They watched a lot for a few weeks right when we moved but we since moved the TV out of their living area and they don't really miss it.

 Have you looked into diet issues though?  That may also be a way to at least tone down some of the seemingly crazy hyper activity you describe.  DS gets really hyper after artificial coloring.  So we have banned brightly colored candies, fake colored drinks, and fake colored snacks.  We also have a strict protein for breakfast policy that has really helped us here.  It might be worth a shot...it doesn't calm down his independant Can-do attitude, but it does help him to be more polite about asking for that need to be filled.  So rather than stick his tongue out and say "Shut up Mommy!" while he runs a city block ahead,  He says "I need a little quiet time, Mommy." and kisses my hand as he strolls ahead by about 20 meters.  This took a lot of modelling and discussion, too, but within a few weeks he was able to request his need for space more appropriately.

I like the laundry game idea, and see how that could translate into other areas too.  The only issue I can see is that they'd get too noisy and run around, and then the neighbors come upstairs to yell at us and it's stressful...  So I tend to be all neurotic telling them to please shush in the apartment etc.  And we just don't have the money to be out and about all day and night just so they can stretch their legs.  Ugh.  Can't wait to move out of this place, but then we'll be with MY mother, whom *I* have control issues with, lol.

Oh, and stairs - well in our apartment anyway they locked the stairwells because people were getting raped and mugged in them... so the elevator is the only way to go. ;)

Oh jesus!  So how soon can you move?

Can you tell the neighbors to get over it or take it up with the building manager?  I know that seems rude, but they are not the boss of you.  You have kids, and the landlord rented the space to you KNOWING you had kids.  There is a certain amount of expected noise and expected wear and tear when you rent to people with kids and pets.  That is on them.  I highly reccommend you look up the tennant rights in your area.  It sounds like you are so afraid of these people you're allowing their tyranny to get in the way of enjoying what few moment of peace you might have with your kids.  If your neighbors hate you...well better them than your kids, ya know?  Not that your kids hate you, obviously, but you see what I mean, right?

Wishing you a speedy escape from white carpeted, crazy urban danger zone!