Bin Laden - Page 5

[lovingmommyhood]

Originally Posted by MusicianDad 

Why? Because I hold myself to a higher standard than the people who support Bin Laden?

Because I hold those who are against him to a higher standard and call them on it when they fail to meet that standard?

I don't know that any of those people even know you to be concerned with what your standard is for them? 

[Chamomile Girl]

Originally Posted by lovingmommyhood 

We're at war...they were in Pakistan where people are routinely stoned for simple crimes. This "man" was killed humanely which is more than I can say for the men, women and children who were burned, crushed or jumped to their deaths in the attacks on 9/11. A swift bullet to the brain was way more than he deserved, but we aren't monsters like them. 

Yes, they were in Pakistan which is an autonomous state fercryingoutloud.  It does not matter if you, or anyone thinks their methods of justice less than stellar...the point is we, as Americans hold ourselves to a higher standard than state-sanctioned assasination within the borders of an unknowing autonomous nation.  It's like extreme rendition but way worse.  And against international law.

ETA:  And the "we are at war" thing breaks down here too as we are not at war with Pakistan last I looked.  Do you also justify the bombing of Laos and Cambodia during the Vietnam war by the same logic?

[Arduinna]

Originally Posted by MusicianDad 

Why? Because I hold myself to a higher standard than the people who support Bin Laden?

Because I hold those who are against him to a higher standard and call them on it when they fail to meet that standard?

You aren't the definer of my standards, thank you.

[amma_mama]

While I shed no tears for his death, it is difficult to celebrate in light of the hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqi and Afghani citizens that have been killed by the US military and it's allies in our efforts to bring down Bin Laden. The US has surely been responsible for far more Al Qaeda recruits than Bin Laden and his jihadist cohorts could ever have achieved on their own. We created the violent insurgencies in both Iraq and Afghanistan, causing the unnecessary deaths of our own soldiers that were put in a position of instigating more violence than otherwise would have occurred.

I do not celebrate the many freedoms that our nation has sacrificed in the name of our so-called war on terrorism. I do not celebrate the arrogance with which we support the wrong doing of others when it suits our aims and then the misplaced shock that they one day turn their wrath against us.

Our televised celebrations are a testament to our country's moral bankruptcy and depraved indifference to those that suffer from our chosen path.

The death of bin Laden cannot justify a decade of death and destruction at OUR hands.

[MusicianDad]

Originally Posted by Arduinna 

You aren't the definer of my standards, thank you.

But I am a definer of the standards I expect of people.

If you can feel good about yourself, being just like them, fine. But I have every right to be disgusted by you acting just like they do.

[MusicianDad]

Originally Posted by lovingmommyhood 

I don't know that any of those people even know you to be concerned with what your standard is for them? 

That's not the point.

I make no apologies for expecting people to be decent human beings.

[monkey's mom]

At least Bin Laden/Al Queda had the decency to be honest about their motives. Ours was based on lies like Weapons of Mass Destruction and nonsense like, "we're killing you so you can be free."

If he's a monster for killing thousands of innocent people, what does that make us?

[TCMoulton]

Originally Posted by mooshersmama 

I'm pretty sure it's been established that bin Laden would not have allowed himself to be taken alive.

In fact he used his wife as a shield during the firefight and she ended up losing her life as well.

[MamaofLiam]

Originally Posted by MusicianDad 

You know...

All of this "Our lives should be worth more than theirs", "they are the bad guys", and "either you celebrate the death of the bad guys or you are one of them" BS is the same BS they use on their followers to justify their actions.

I have no regrets at finding this kind of rhetoric to justify abhorrent behavior on the part of the people celebrating disgusting. The last thing I expected (or maybe I did expected in a way) is to hear their words used to justify our behaviour.

Originally Posted by monkey's mom 

Totally agree. Simply can not believe the things I've seen and heard over the last 24 hours.
 

 I don't know why this doesn't register with some people. I don't understand how people don't comprehend the above? It's just really sad all the way around. The whole thing. 
 

[journeymom]

Interesting article:  Is it wrong to celebrate bin Laden's death?

http://www.npr.org/2011/05/02/135927693/is-it-wrong-to-celebrate-bin-ladens-death?sc=fb&cc=fp

[insidevoice]

Originally Posted by journeymom 

Interesting article:  Is it wrong to celebrate bin Laden's death?

http://www.npr.org/2011/05/02/135927693/is-it-wrong-to-celebrate-bin-ladens-death?sc=fb&cc=fp

This article is fascinating.  It was posted on a family member's facebook page and has stirred a great deal of controversy there as well. 

[Subhuti]

I am not dancing in the streets because Osama was killed.  It had to be done, I agree, and he wasn't going to surrender.  But I don't feel joyful at someone being shot.  Maybe a sense of relief is how I would describe my feelings upon hearing that OBL had been killed.

Now, if the war in Afghanistan were declared over .... then I'd be dancing in the streets!

[love4bob]

Originally Posted by Subhuti 

I am not dancing in the streets because Osama was killed.  It had to be done, I agree, and he wasn't going to surrender.  But I don't feel joyful at someone being shot.  Maybe a sense of relief is how I would describe my feelings upon hearing that OBL had been killed.

Now, if the war in Afghanistan were declared over .... then I'd be dancing in the streets!

And Iraq(it's "over" but not over) and Libya(although it's not a war.... right ) That will be a great day when they ALL come home!

[moonfirefaery]

Originally Posted by amma_mama 

While I shed no tears for his death, it is difficult to celebrate in light of the hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqi and Afghani citizens that have been killed by the US military and it's allies in our efforts to bring down Bin Laden. The US has surely been responsible for far more Al Qaeda recruits than Bin Laden and his jihadist cohorts could ever have achieved on their own. We created the violent insurgencies in both Iraq and Afghanistan, causing the unnecessary deaths of our own soldiers that were put in a position of instigating more violence than otherwise would have occurred.

I do not celebrate the many freedoms that our nation has sacrificed in the name of our so-called war on terrorism. I do not celebrate the arrogance with which we support the wrong doing of others when it suits our aims and then the misplaced shock that they one day turn their wrath against us.

Our televised celebrations are a testament to our country's moral bankruptcy and depraved indifference to those that suffer from our chosen path.

The death of bin Laden cannot justify a decade of death and destruction at OUR hands.

That is well-said.

All of this "Our lives should be worth more than theirs", "they are the bad guys", and "either you celebrate the death of the bad guys or you are one of them" BS is the same BS they use on their followers to justify their actions.

I don't believe any of that; I just believe it's okay to celebrate that someone can no longer do harm... people would be cheering as loudly if he'd merely been captured, imprisoned, etc.

[moonfirefaery]

Originally Posted by Arduinna 

If you can't tell the difference between cheering an act of terrorism where over 3000 people died, then there is nothing more for me to say.

Yes.

There is a difference between cheering the deaths of innocents and cheering the death of a man who killed innocents. The difference is whether there is moral justification for the cheering and the death. I seriously do not understand how people cannot get that difference.

[Chamomile Girl]

Originally Posted by moonfirefaery 

Yes.

There is a difference between cheering the deaths of innocents and cheering the death of a man who killed innocents. The difference is whether there is moral justification for the cheering and the death. I seriously do not understand how people cannot get that difference.

Well I seriously don't get how people find moral justification in death, period.

[TiredX2]

First, if anyone wants to compare dates (Hitler's day of death, or whatever) how about hitting a little closer to home people!

May 1, 2003 is when GWBush declared "Mission Accomplished".  May 1, 2011 is when Obama did not declare "Mission Accomplished" but could arguably be said to have accomplished something.
 

Originally Posted by mooshersmama 

I'm pretty sure it's been established that bin Laden would not have allowed himself to be taken alive.

ITA with this.  I have felt torn by my positive feelings of relief at the death of any individual, but I have had the feelings.  I am adamently opposed to the death penalty and yet, I can see how there were not a lot of other options.  It's not as if his capture hasn't been a stated goal for, what, 20+ years.

Originally Posted by Subhuti 

I am not dancing in the streets because Osama was killed.  It had to be done, I agree, and he wasn't going to surrender.  But I don't feel joyful at someone being shot.  Maybe a sense of relief is how I would describe my feelings upon hearing that OBL had been killed.

Now, if the war in Afghanistan were declared over .... then I'd be dancing in the streets!

I think a lot of the jubulation could be viewed as a cathartic event after a lot time (for some, almost a lifetime) of stress.  People have focused that anxiety, that terror if you will, on one person.  Once he was removed, you're going to see a lot of unthinking exuberance.  I try to not judge too harshly, hopefullly though, people will reconsider their reactions as time goes on.
 

Originally Posted by moonfirefaery 

I don't believe any of that; I just believe it's okay to celebrate that someone can no longer do harm... people would be cheering as loudly if he'd merely been captured, imprisoned, etc.

I like to think that as well.  bin Laden has been portrayed as the Boogie Man for long enough that, of course, people are going to celebrate an increased feeling of safety.  Real or simply percieved, it's definately an emotional time.
 

[moonfirefaery]

Originally Posted by Chamomile Girl 

Well I seriously don't get how people find moral justification in death, period.

That is probably the entire basis of our miscommunication.

[MusicianDad]

Originally Posted by moonfirefaery 

Yes.

There is a difference between cheering the deaths of innocents and cheering the death of a man who killed innocents. The difference is whether there is moral justification for the cheering and the death. I seriously do not understand how people cannot get that difference.

So... You won't be the least bit upset when people, say, cheer the death of GW Bush when it happens?

[amma_mama]

Originally Posted by MusicianDad 

So... You won't be the least bit upset when people, say, cheer the death of GW Bush when it happens?

It would have been quite satisfying to see back-to-back trials at The Hague for crimes against humanity.

Rather than jubilant, this should be a somber occasion to reflect on the death and destruction that we perpetrated across the globe in the name of justice. Bin Laden was not found due to our "success" in slaughtering hundreds of thousands of innocents in Iraq. Bin Laden was not found due to a decade of instability and destruction in Afghanistan. He was found through an amazing pursuit of intelligence gathering that surely could have succeeded just the same without our acts of war. When is our nation going to come to terms with what we have done over the past decade? None of it can be justified by Bin Laden's death. I just cannot understand what people are celebrating. Yes, he was a monster for killing 3000 innocent people. But what are we?