Osama bin Laden is dead - Page 2

[Drummer's Wife]

They are saying that capturing him alive was the first goal, but that b/c they were met by gunfire, it obviously didn't work out that way.



eta: and of course he was murdered. He was killed, but not by accident (regardless of whether that was the goal vs. detaining him). But then again, I feel like those on death row are murdered when the day comes - even though they are murderers themselves. If it's purposeful, it's clearly murder. Calling it justice doesn't change the outcome.


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Edited by Drummer's Wife - 5/2/11 at 4:37pm

[Arduinna]

Originally Posted by Dar 

I doubt that they tried very hard (if at all) to capture him alive. In my opinion this was an assassination, which yes, is illegal, even if the president authorizes it. Was it ethically right to do so? Maybe.

Here's one article on the subject:
http://www.rnw.nl/international-justice/article/us-bin-laden-a-license-kill

As it points out, the man who killed Bin Laden could be legally charged with murder under Pakistani law and the USA does have an extradition treaty with Pakistan... not that this is at all likely to happen, but it legally could. The USA has a long history of acting as if rules and laws don't apply to us.

Considering that Bin Ladin was hiding right next to a military training facility in a building that was only built within the last 5 years, I really don't give a crap what Pakistan can supposedly do. I have no concern at all that our Gov is going to hand over Navy Seals and CIA agents to Pakistan. It really boggles the mind that anyone would even entertain that the POTUS is going to do that considering they were acting on his orders. There are already serious questions being asked about Pakistans involvement with the hiding of Bin Ladin.

[moonfirefaery]

There is no way that the US will honor an expedition treaty in this situation. We knew we couldn't trust the Pakistan government, and so we kept the mission covert and succeeded. He was living in the shadow of a military training facility, either that's coincidence, they knew and were allowing it, or they knew and were even going so far as to protect him and help him stay hidden. Either they are incompetent, or they're aiding him, even though they've been pretending to be with us in this fight.

He was killed in a gunfight, and he was hiding behind a woman and was potentially armed... our men were trying to capture him, while still protecting themselves.

[Chamomile Girl]

Originally Posted by moonfirefaery 

There is no way that the US will honor an expedition treaty in this situation. We knew we couldn't trust the Pakistan government, and so we kept the mission covert and succeeded. He was living in the shadow of a military training facility, either that's coincidence, they knew and were allowing it, or they knew and were even going so far as to protect him and help him stay hidden. Either they are incompetent, or they're aiding him, even though they've been pretending to be with us in this fight.

He was killed in a gunfight, and he was hiding behind a woman and was potentially armed... our men were trying to capture him, while still protecting themselves.

You mean extradition treaty.

Well at any rate I'll bet that Pakistan is alternately fuming mad and crapping themselves.

[TiredX2]

Originally Posted by moonfirefaery 

It's not his death I'm celebrating. I'm celebrating that he can't do murder anymore. I would have celebrated if he were imprisoned or punished in some other fitting way as well, anything that prevented him from doing further harm.

Yes.  This was the very rare situation, in fact, that I am not sure imprisonment would have actually altered the amount of killing he "supported."  Can you imagine the situation where he was being held?

And no, I'm not saying that it makes it *right*, just that it get's it closer to understandable.

[TiredX2]

I also wanted to add--- the pictures of wild jubulation are more than a bit sick to me.  They smack of the same depravity as those from Abu Ghraib.  Just because a situation is the best of two evils does not make it suddenly *good*.

[moonfirefaery]

Originally Posted by Chamomile Girl 

You mean extradition treaty.

Well at any rate I'll bet that Pakistan is alternately fuming mad and crapping themselves.

Yes, that, sorry about that. And lol, I bet they are!!! We were right in their shadow, taking out Osama, and they were unaware!

[Dar]

Of course we would never honor a request for extradition from Pakistan. I did say that up front. And no, I don't think Pakistan would ever make sure a request. The point was that the USA broke international law and Pakistan law.

Some reports say that Bin Laden never fired a shot - some also say that his wife placed herself between the Seals and Bin Laden, rather than him hiding behind her. Whatever, he wasn't killed for cowardice. The Seals generally do have cameras on their helmets so it's interesting that no footage has been released.

I'm not a fan of bin Laden, really. I can accept that killing him might have been necessary, and that the world without him may be a better place. I've thought at times that killing Qaddafi might improve Libya's situation immeasurably. But thinking about them dying doesn't make me feel joyful - it makes me feel sad, that there are people with so much hate in them that the only solution is apparently to kill them. I find that really, really sad. I also think that

[amma_mama]

Given that he was found and killed as a result of intelligence, I do not think that we will know for a long time, or ever, what the role of Pakistan was in all this. It cannot be expected that we are being told the full truth and that may be how it has to be at this point.

As for the celebrations, I have already ranted away in the other thread on this topic. While I agree that this is an important turning point in the "war on terrorism", it will be sad if it does not lead to some introspection as a nation. Not a whole lot to celebrate, IMHO. The fact that he was not found and killed as a result of our violent occupation of two countries should give us all some pause.

[moonfirefaery]

It's the lives that may be spared by his death that make me joyful.

[SilverMoon010]

How many times have we heard that this country is not safe until Osama is dead (Bush).  Now that he is dead, the government is now saying we are still not safe, even less safe, because of his potential cohorts who are now totally pissed off and may seek revenge (Obama).  So, basically, we have never been safe and never will be, whether Osama is dead or alive.  

I never trust the motives behind politics and find it hard to trust anything they say and do, which is why I am now a total conspiracy theorist.

On that note..... 

Edited by SilverMoon010 - 5/3/11 at 5:50am

[journeymom]

Originally Posted by SilverMoon010 

How many times have we heard that this country is not safe until Osama is dead (Bush).  Now that he is dead, the government is now saying we are still not safe, even less safe, because of his potential cohorts who are now totally pissed off and may seek revenge (Obama).  So, basically, we have never been safe and never will be, whether Osama is dead or alive.  

I never trust the motives behind politics and find it hard to trust anything they say and do, which is why I am now a total conspiracy theorist.

On that note..... 

Right. For Obama's sake just remember who claimed what, and when.  Bush is the one who used hyperbolic cowboy rhetoric.  As you note yourself, he's the one who said we need to git bin Laden in order to make the Free World safe, not Barack Obama.  Other experts have been saying all along that the world will never be completely safe. Others have been saying for a while that killing bin Laden will not make the world entirely safer, because even though he's hugely symbolically important he's only one head on a deadly hydra -cut one off and the others merely step in and take over.  

I'm with you, I've grown to not trust politicians, either.  I don't trust them, and I question the motives behind everything they say and do.  I don't know why, but that hasn't made me a conspiracy theorist.     

[mar123]

According to reports from the Navy Seals, capturing him was never the intent; killing him was. I saw the article yesterday on CNN, but of course I can't find it now.

[moonfirefaery]

We're not safe because of his death.

But we are safe from him, specifically, and that is something to many people who have feared him for so long.

[moonfirefaery]

Originally Posted by mar123 

According to reports from the Navy Seals, capturing him was never the intent; killing him was. I saw the article yesterday on CNN, but of course I can't find it now.

The news reports are very clear that they have stated they wanted him alive, but knew it was only a remote possibility. He was shot as he reached for a gun. Should we have allowed him to retrieve the gun, then attempted to disarm him, risking the chance of one of our soldiers dying instead of the murderer?
 

[Owen'nZoe]

Originally Posted by moonfirefaery 

The news reports are very clear that they have stated they wanted him alive, but knew it was only a remote possibility. He was shot as he reached for a gun. Should we have allowed him to retrieve the gun, then attempted to disarm him, risking the chance of one of our soldiers dying instead of the murderer?
 

 Most of the reports have said what you have, but I too have read some articles that said it was a kill mission from the start. Like Dar, whether that was a good or bad plan, I really am not willing or able to speculate, but personally I am bothered by the celebrations. Not only does it look a bit too much like the celebrations that we were horrified by after 9/11 for my comfort, but as Dar said, it seems unwise to say the least when Al Qaeda is most likely just as able to attack us today as they were the day before bin Ladin died. It's a little like the "Mission Accomplished" declaration that looked so foolish as the years of war dragged on after.

[moonfirefaery]

Obama didn't announce that, though; he just announced the truth, that bin Laden's body was in custody.

I see the conflicting news reports and am watching with interest. I would prefer that he had been taken alive, but even if it was a kill mission from the start, I am not sure that I condemn the decision.

[BeckyBird]

How many times has the official story changed in the past week? And, why do people still believe the tale of his death, when they can't even get the story straight? Would you accept a story like this from someone you know, if they kept changing the facts? No way. In 2nd grade, a girl in my class claimed she had invisible ink. We pressured her every day to bring it to school (I truly believed she had it lol!) She finally admitted she lied. A 2nd grade lesson that stuck with me.......when somebody  fabricates a tale ONCE, they will lose credibility with me.

So, why should you believe what the White House and the Media tells you, when they keep changing the story?

[moonfirefaery]

I think it's like when a child knows they have done something of questionable morality. At first, they are going to tell you they have done good, but as more information comes to light, they have to admit to more and more wrong doing until the ultimate truth of the situation is revealed. Our soldiers went into a home containing families of women and children in the middle of the night. [We don't know if they knew children or women were there, if the children never came out to play.] They shot everyone they encountered. [This does not mean they did not encounter armed foes; I think it speaks to the training and ability of Team 6 to take down dangerous targets before they can shoot or, if unarmed, reach a nearby gun. They have to be quicker on the draw to be effective.] Then a 12 year-old girl watched as we shot her mother in the leg, then blew a hole in her father's skull. [I don't know if they knew his family was there; I know they were threatened by the wife and the target, and they couldn't taken any chances of injury/failure and believed they were delivering justice to someone who committed mass murder. The articles say they took care to ensure everyone was safe before blowing up the crashed copter.]

There are two specific sides to the story. The truth of what happened was horrific. It's understandable while also regrettable that the government was so loathe to admit it. The question is, was it justified, and was it legal? I don't think it will matter either way to his daughter. Does it demonstrate a keen sense of strategy, to take the chance, or does it demonstrate poor planning and poor judgment, to not verify whether children were there or have a plan for protecting them from being traumatized? If we knew children were there, should we have handled the mission differently or held off entirely? Those are the questions I'm considering. But I am shuddering at the monster we must look like to some people right now.

[BeckyBird]

I do understand what you are saying, but I still have a problem with the story. I have gone past the point of no return, and am completely disillusioned with the entire government and media system. Is it misinformation or disinformation? One is accidental, the other is deliberate. Since there is a very long history of lies, decades of lies, I really cannot trust anything they say. It's sad.

Would you buy something expensive from an Ebay dealer with a low positive feedback? Probably not, because they are not trustworthy. Well, I don't trust the media OR government, and their feedback rating from this viewer gets about a 3%, lol! They are not trustworthy because they have a history of lying.

With that being said, I still do not know if the Bin Laden story is true. It could very well be true. You are not right or wrong for believing the story. We all take the information that is given, and decide for ourselves what to believe. I am all for personal choice, so I will not flame any of you for your beliefs. I hope the thread continues in a positive manner, and I hope I will not be flamed for my beliefs either.

Thanks!