Osama bin Laden is dead - Page 3

[MamieCole]

Originally Posted by moonfirefaery 

There are two specific sides to the story. The truth of what happened was horrific. It's understandable while also regrettable that the government was so loathe to admit it. The question is, was it justified, and was it legal? I don't think it will matter either way to his daughter. Does it demonstrate a keen sense of strategy, to take the chance, or does it demonstrate poor planning and poor judgment, to not verify whether children were there or have a plan for protecting them from being traumatized? If we knew children were there, should we have handled the mission differently or held off entirely? Those are the questions I'm considering. But I am shuddering at the monster we must look like to some people right now.

I'm pretty sure bin laden wasn't taking into consideration how many children would be killed or left to cope with the loss of a parent when he ordered the attacks of 9/11. 

It's unfortunate that any child has to see their parent killed, but protecting children who could have potentially been in that compound is a luxury that our military did not have, especially considering that bin laden was the type of "person" who would have potentially sacrificed his own children to save himself. 

I don't believe everything our government says. I don't believe much of what the media says. But I DO believe that OBL was a monster who took pleasure in seeing Americans die simply because we are Americans and would have continued to plan and implement other attacks as long as he lived. That's obviously just my opinion. It would be hard to watch this and believe otherwise afterwards. I'm happy he is dead. I'm not celebrating or dancing in the streets, but I am glad he is dead. 

I'd like to think that w/bin laden dead, Al-Qaida might take longer than expected to re-group and attack us again. Or maybe they will just go into overdrive. Who knows? 

Each time I drive across the Golden Gate bridge I wonder if this will be the day it is blown up. Each time I get on a plane I wonder if this will be the day of the next attack. Each time I hear a plane in the sky, I wonder if it is just going to the airport or if it is being used as a weapon and will crash into our home. I didn't lose a loved-one on 9/11, and I STILL live with that little voice in the back of my mind wondering when it's going to happen again. THAT'S what bin laden did to us. Someone else may do the same thing in the future, but at least he won't be able to take the satisfaction in personally doing it again. I say good riddance. 

[MusicianDad]

Originally Posted by MamieCole 

I'm pretty sure bin laden wasn't taking into consideration how many children would be killed or left to cope with the loss of a parent when he ordered the attacks of 9/11. 

You really don't think we should be better than him? Or are we all just aspiring to meet the lowest bar set now?

[moonfirefaery]

I think we should be better than him if we can. Otherwise, we're hypocrits. I haven't criticized Obama's decision or the SEALs' decision. I'm only stating what the perceptive of many in the world is towards us right now. If you'd read the thread, I'm the lone person here defending gladness that he's dead. I did a happy dance when Obama announced it. I did. I'm relieved. I'm just sorry for the manner it was carried out in. I don't know if there was a better way, but I'd like to know all the facts and consider them.

[hakeber]

Originally Posted by MamieCole 

I'm pretty sure bin laden wasn't taking into consideration how many children would be killed or left to cope with the loss of a parent when he ordered the attacks of 9/11. 

Actually I believe who ever did carry out the attacks (and one of the reasons I consider it possible that it was not Al-Qaeda but perhaps another agency wishing to limit "Collateral Damage") considered very carefully how many children would be in the building and the civilian death was considered, as they say in miliatry terms, of a justifable rate in relation to the gains.  The building was at 30% capacity at that time being an election day, and being so early in the am, and day care so easily evacuated being one of the lowest floors.  This was clearly taken into consideration in terms of the planning.  I do not think the demolition of the building was part of the plan...I belive they just intended to scare people, not demolish the towers and surrounding area.

It's unfortunate that any child has to see their parent killed, but protecting children who could have potentially been in that compound is a luxury that our military did not have, especially considering that bin laden was the type of "person" who would have potentially sacrificed his own children to save himself. 

I find your use of quotation marks around the word person a sign of the wonderful effectiveness in the media having done its job to totally dehumanize the people of Al-Qaeda.  They are people.  No person, no matter what crimes they may or may not be found guilty of are still PEOPLE.  Only when we are able to dehumanize the enemy are we able to truly reach the goals of propganda...that was Hitler's philosophy on mass manipulation down to a tee.  And we still take a page from his playbook today.  We may not like him (for what we know or think we know of him) but he was still a person. . 

I don't believe everything our government says. I don't believe much of what the media says. But I DO believe that OBL was a monster who took pleasure in seeing Americans die simply because we are Americans and would have continued to plan and implement other attacks as long as he lived. That's obviously just my opinion. It would be hard to watch this and believe otherwise afterwards. I'm happy he is dead. I'm not celebrating or dancing in the streets, but I am glad he is dead. 

This video is the most absurd propaganda I have ever seen.  First of all I would love to sit down with someone who actually speaks the language spoken here and get a translation from someone I trust rather than the word of the youtube poster, because I have a hard time beliveing it.  It's not at all in keeping with logic. (the disbelief of which is easy to suspend when you do not think someone is human, BTW)  Secondly it has been denied as being BinLaden on those tapes by BinLaden's people, AlQaeda, and several other sources even within the US government.  Third...have you heard about the circumstances under which this tape came in the hands of the US government?  My son can come up with better stories that that.  An anonymous source...no wait....a friend...no...wait...even a CIA expert came forward to claim they did it.  If you are glad he's dead, then I hope you will not be not shocked when smaller countries start invading our soveriegn land to raid and "capture alive" (aka assassinate) George Bush, Dick Chenney, Bill Clinton, Ronald Regan (wait, is he already dead?) George Bush Sr, Hillary Clinton, Collin Powell, and all the other member of our government who have done exactly the same thing Osama has done in areas of the world no one seems to care enough about to actually read about in the free press (whatever or wherever that is).

If you look at his list of official crimes, they are both attacks on EMBASSIES in Dar es Salaam, Tanzania, and Nairobi, Kenya. These are NOT civilians, and none of his attacks have been civilian deaths.  The only source that have ever said he was pleased for the death of American citizens and civilian have been mainsteam media and this supposed video (who video tapes themselves laughing and chatting with their friends about an attack they planned almost two months later?  but that you are denying vehemently in public? Is that even logical?  And then leaks it to the press?  Think about the logic there.)

I'd like to think that w/bin laden dead, Al-Qaida might take longer than expected to re-group and attack us again. Or maybe they will just go into overdrive. Who knows? 

History knows.

Each time I drive across the Golden Gate bridge I wonder if this will be the day it is blown up. Each time I get on a plane I wonder if this will be the day of the next attack. Each time I hear a plane in the sky, I wonder if it is just going to the airport or if it is being used as a weapon and will crash into our home. I didn't lose a loved-one on 9/11, and I STILL live with that little voice in the back of my mind wondering when it's going to happen again. THAT'S what bin laden did to us. Someone else may do the same thing in the future, but at least he won't be able to take the satisfaction in personally doing it again. I say good riddance. 

Bin Laden didn't do that to you.  The US Media did.

The media has done its job.  It has scared you into trusting the government just enough to hate who ever they tell you to hate without looking at the actual evidence, or in this case the significant lack thereof.  If those tapes were even remotely true, why wouldn't 9/11 be on the ACTUAL list of crimes BinLaden was wanted for?  Why wouldn't there be an indictment against him? Think about it?  They don't have the evidence for it, so unless you genuinely care about the crimes he actually took credit for openly and didn't deny (which his organization did with almost all of the other attcaks on embassies and other such military targets that they are accused of), then this just goes to show you not the power of his terrorism, but of the terrorism committed through our US media.  And why?  How does it benefit them?  Think about it.  If the media has you scared senseless, you don't stray very far, do you?  And if you don't stray far you're much more likely to be a captive audience and what's the way they help you ease the anxiety of fear?  Apart from pharmaceuticals and food?  STUFF!  And that is exactly what the government said to do after 9/11...go shopping!  Feed the economy!  Whose economy though?  Yours?  No.  The economy of the companies that are in bed with western governments and the media and the banks. 

No matter who engineered the attacks, the victims that have been attacked in the aftermath are the most tragic of all and they are not the 3000+ lives that were lost.  They are the MILLIONS of Americans and, as a result of global media, global citizens exposed to western media who have been terrorized into believing that the government is there to protect them from an axis of evil, and that they should give up basic rights to privacy and candid governmental criticism in order to prove their allegiance.  It is the billions and billions of people who have been convinced that more fire power and destruction and SPENDING will bring an end to the terror.  The thousands of soldiers and civilians who believe they are giving their lives for peace and democracy (HA!) It is the billions who have been duped into believing that NewsCorp has an interest in giving us any semblance the truth or allow us to "decide" anything for ourselves. 
 

The death of innocent people is something the super powerful and the super wealthy of world have always been willing to overlook in the name of rising profits.  It is the financial, emotional, and spiritual paralysis of the people that they benefit so greatly from, and which they have carefully engineered as a result of these attacks.  So maybe BinLaden was behind it all (we'll never know), but it sure as hell made some folks mighty rich (and I think we can all agree that person wasn't BinLaden based on what we have seen in the last week) and all that more powerful. 

I have a hard time believing there wasn't any guidance, manipulation, direction, or contrivance from the people at the top, that it was all just happy coincidence for them.  It's like if my son says the cat broke the cookie jar...but yet he's the one with the cookie crumbs all over his face...but I go and have the CAT put down.  No I'm not comparing the deaths of 9/11 with cookies...I'm just trying to point out the stretch it takes for me to understand the stories we are being told.
 

Originally Posted by moonfirefaery 

I think we should be better than him if we can. Otherwise, we're hypocrits. I haven't criticized Obama's decision or the SEALs' decision. I'm only stating what the perceptive of many in the world is towards us right now. If you'd read the thread, I'm the lone person here defending gladness that he's dead. I did a happy dance when Obama announced it. I did. I'm relieved. I'm just sorry for the manner it was carried out in. I don't know if there was a better way, but I'd like to know all the facts and consider them.

I think we all would.  But the free press (and by free press I mean those entities not owned by or affliliated with one of the top ten media conglommerates and not funded by Big business advertising -- so good luck to you) is hard to come by, and often laughed off as meanignless drivel and conpsiracy theory.   But yes...having the facts would be nice.  It could be a full time joband lifetime obsession to get them unless your willing to overlook the source. 

Edited by hakeber - 5/10/11 at 7:32pm

[hakeber]

Originally Posted by journeymom 

...But this wasn't like Manuel Noriega who got spy training and psychological warfare training at US military installations...

  

Actually it was just like that...they trained him to be a spy and a warrior, and they gave his people guns and money for war supplies.  Then they pulled the rug out when they realized they weren't going to be able to controll the newly free Afghanistan (not that I'm all for the Taliban and what it imposed on women there, but I'm even more against the idea of the US installing puppet governments around the world).

And they rarely step their foot in it for the interests of the NATION or our people, but rather for the interest of their largest contributors: Big Business.  Is it any wonder we have been crusaders for capitalism around the world?  Do you really think it's because the US government just can't STAND the idea of people being forced to all eat the same bread and wear the same ugly shoes, be forced to study gymnastics when little Ruslan just wanted to be an astronaut, and have no free press?  Or do you think it might have something to do with limiting the profit base? There are markets to be had in parts of the world no one ever reads about, Coal, Gas, Diamonds, Copper, Nickel and Colbalt, and other metals that are used to make our cheap electronics (and not so cheap electronics), Plastics and rubber and glass...ever notice any of the mine or plantations needed to make that stuff near you?  And no I am not typing this on an organic laptop made from orange peels and nut shells, powered by half solar and half pedalling power, so I am equally to blame for my contribuitions, but we are lying to ourselves if we do not acknowledge why the US government is getting involved in developing nations and obliterating peoples who stand in our way.  It has nothing to do with the power of right, democracy or ending genocide and everything to do with raping them for their natural resources (the likes of which we have already depleted in our ouwn countries if we ever had any to begin with) so that their real constituents, (not the people but the big companies) can continue to sell us STUFF, and can continue to make huge profits off cheap labor and abundant resources and we will destroy anyone who gets in our way.

Our version of violence is sheer greed and opression. 

[MamieCole]

So, a plan to hijack planes and fly them into the WTC, Pentagon and possibly the White House was partially backed by our own government in an effort to get us to stay home and buy more stuff? And they planned it on election day, early in the morning on purpose to minimize loss of life? Just to give us a good scare?  

Interesting.

[hakeber]

Originally Posted by MamieCole 

So, a plan to hijack planes and fly them into the WTC, Pentagon and possibly the White House was partially backed by our own government in an effort to get us to stay home and buy more stuff? And they planned it on election day, early in the morning on purpose to minimize loss of life? Just to give us a good scare?  

Interesting.

Over simplified, but in a nutshell?  hmmmm, I don't know, but I can say with all certainty that at the very least that is what the events have been manipulated to do to the American people.  If there ever was a message of freedom against the imperilaist Americans and Capitalism, or even one of jealousy and rage against the infidels and their slutty women, it has been co-opted by the media and Big Business to benefit their bottom line, not the people's, no doubt about it.  In these days of crushing economic crises, some people aren't even feeling a blip.  Who are those people?  Why aren't they feeling the burn?  hmmmmm.  How have they seemed to grow even more out of this?  How do they always seem to gain out of the losses and tragedies of everyone else?

I find the way it happened so seemlessly to be mightily suspicious at best.  There are other facts like the fact that members of the BinLaden family were immediately relocated by the US government just after the attacks, reactions by White House officials and leaks of information to be confusing at best and incriminating at worst.

ETA:  Let's not forget that the plane that hit the Pentagon miraculously hit the one wing that was under construction at the time...how...convenient?

If the US didn't organize it themselves those who did had some serious inside intelligence...and used it totally counter intuitively for someone "who took pleasure in seeing Americans die simply because we are Americans".

Edited by hakeber - 5/10/11 at 8:38pm

[Chamomile Girl]

Every time I drive over the Golden Gate Bridge (or more often the Richmond San Rafael Bridge) I am expecting an earthquake to flatten my ass.  Because OBL may have been a terrorist, but mother nature is a capricious bitch.  AND she lives a lot closer to home.

Sorry...just saying...

Continue.

[moonfirefaery]

Sadly without more information this is all speculation (as to who planned the attacks).

And... we do not have a free press as it is. There was a gag order on reporting of US deceased soldiers' or war casualties, and the Bush administration made it difficult for the press to criticize him. Even at a congressional dinner it was pointed out how "free" from media criticism Bush seemed to be in, like he was living in a bubble... A bubble that he created by controlling our press. Rumsfield encouraged the military and the media to used certain words and phrases to keep us in support of this war; they were trying to manipulate us to limit dissent. It worked until more people started realizing what was going on. Then his approval ratings went down, down, down...

[BeckyBird]

Rebekah, my hat's off to you. You NAILED it!!!

Follow my line of thinking here. OK, prepare yourself....

To those of you who think it is Impossible that 9/11 could have been carried out by members of our own government, this message is for you.

First, you must admit to yourself that it is completely within the realm of possibility. You do not want to believe it could be true (believe me, I know) but it is still Possible.

I'll tell you something that ought to be impossible.....incest. Crimes against innocent children. Abuse (even murder) committed by a parent.

Now, weigh the two: Our government was "in" on 9/11, or parents abusing their own children. What sounds more impossible to you? How can a parent do that to his/her own child? How can our government do that to its own citizens?  If it is possible for a person to commit a crime against an innocent child, then why is it so impossible for a group of people in the US government to commit a false flag operation known as 9/11? Evil is evil. You just don't want to believe it can be true. 

Remove yourself for just a bit. Pretend this event happened in a 3rd world country. Oh my goodness, it is so easy to believe that a 3rd world foreign government could carry out attacks on its own soil, right? But not the USA, no. We are, better, right?

My theory is that Al Quaeida may have been involved in the attacks, under the supervision of certain members of the US government. I will spend the rest of today scrounging up facts to support my claim. I will try to stay away from loony conspiracy theories, and only submit provable facts, ok?

9/11 is very important to me, and I do want to get to the truth. I do not want my posts removed, so I will try to stick with facts. You can read the facts, and decide for yourself what to believe.

Annnnd, this relates to the original question about Bin Laden, because to rejoice in his death, you must first believe that he was completely responsible for 9/11. He may have been involved, but there is evidence that he was not the sole mastermind.

[mooshersmama]

Yessss....very interesting....

Also, 9/11/01 was not an election day.  And I'm pretty sure there was no daycare in the towers. 

Backing away from this thread slowly now....

Originally Posted by MamieCole 

So, a plan to hijack planes and fly them into the WTC, Pentagon and possibly the White House was partially backed by our own government in an effort to get us to stay home and buy more stuff? And they planned it on election day, early in the morning on purpose to minimize loss of life? Just to give us a good scare?  

Interesting.

[BeckyBird]

Are you comfortable with challenging your belief system? If not, then read no further.

I am always challenging my beliefs. I want to find the truth, so I am not afraid to test my beliefs. If they do not ring true, then I wish to make a change, and find a better belief. You know, I used to believe in George Bush, and I used to believe in the official 9/11 story. After looking into the story, I don't believe it is true.

Let us start with a little known fact. A small connection, which does not mean much by itself. Yet, if you treat 9/11 as a murder mystery, then you should want to know all facts and connections, in order to get to the truth. If you are so sound in your beliefs about 9/11, then you should not be afraid to read something contradictory.

Marvin Bush, George's brother, was on the board of directors for Stratesec, a company that provided electronic security for the World Trade Center, right up until "the day the buildings fell down."

The entire article can be found here. http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0204-06.htm

Why is this important? It is a connection, which must be addressed.

Did you know that one of the points to debunk the 9/11 conspiracy is this--that if the towers were wired for explosives, it would have taken months to prepare? That a team of oh, 100 people or so, would have needed to do the job? Um, ok, so why is that reason to believe the towers could not have possibly been wired in the months before 9/11? Because it would take a lot of people, and it would have taken months? These are not impossible to accomplish. Possible vs. Impossible.....remember this. It was completely possible. Maybe impossible to believe, but not impossible to accomplish. (Yes, I saw this on a tv documentary the other night. Yes, I do watch shows that challenge my belief system. I like to hear all sides to the story.)

 If you take into consideration the people responsible for the security of the buildings, well, doesn't that give a privately contracted crew ample opportunity to do the job? This is my speculation, but note that in a real murder mystery, this would be taken into consideration. Just because we don't like the way it feels, to think our own country might have done this, does not mean it can not possibly be true. There might only be a 1% chance, but it is still possible.

*More to come. Notice, I gave you all a fact. You can decide what it means. It is ok with me if you don't believe what I believe. This can be a polite discussion, I promise!

[hakeber]

Originally Posted by mooshersmama 

Yessss....very interesting....

Also, 9/11/01 was not an election day.  And I'm pretty sure there was no daycare in the towers. 

Backing away from this thread slowly now....

Yes, it was and yes there were. 

I used to work in Tower 2 and SAW the daycare center in the complex with my own eyes, on the first floor, as my desk mate dropped her kid off each morning. 

And yes there were primary elections for local office happening that morning which was why my friend was late to work, and promptly turned his car around as he was getting on the turnpike and watched the first plane crash into his office...no, literally his office!

Edited by hakeber - 5/11/11 at 8:14am

[Ldavis24]

Originally Posted by Chamomile Girl 

Every time I drive over the Golden Gate Bridge (or more often the Richmond San Rafael Bridge) I am expecting an earthquake to flatten my ass.  Because OBL may have been a terrorist, but mother nature is a capricious bitch.  AND she lives a lot closer to home.

Sorry...just saying...

Continue.

this is the best thing I have read in this entire thread. Thank you for making me smile today!

OBL is dead, my life is the same Al-Qaeda is probably still the same. 

There is something to be said for NOT watching the news...I used to be a news junkie and had the news on all day. One day I just got sick of it. Turned it off and haven't yearned for it since. If I really want some information I go online and read stuff. It's a PITA to have to figure out if what I am reading is reputable or not but it certainly beats watching one of the big 3 spin the same crap day after day.....No I don't care how outraged people are that Michelle Obama wears sleeveless dresses...Yawn.
 

[moonfirefaery]

All of these little "curiosities" (Bush's brother, for example) on their own mean very little, but balled up together demonstrate many circumstances needed to facilitate a conspiracy were indeed present...basically that it could have happened, but there's simply not enough evidence to do more than speculate. I'd like to see it investigated but even if it were a conspiracy, I imagine they covered their trail well enough not to be found out.

[BeckyBird]

My next piece: Scholars for 9/11 Truth and Justice!

Yes folks, the 9/11 Truth movement is not only comprised of crazy tin foil hat wearing weirdos, or boys with bullhorns. No sir! There are many many scholars, architects, engineers, pilots, firefighters, police, etc. who want to reopen the investigation. Not all of them believe "Bush did it", but they have found flaws in the official reports of 9/11. If there is a flaw with the official murder mystery of 9/11, wouldn't you like to examine it?

This video is amazing. Also, very boring if you do not care about 9/11. Lol! So, I recommend this video for anybody who wants to look deeper into the official 9/11 story. If you are set in your beliefs about 9/11, that's ok. You don't have to watch. It is a long one!

                                                         ** http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1881839648593493167#  **

This man, Kevin Ryan, actually read the official NIST WTC report, and the 9/11 Commission Report. Did you read it? I sure didn't!

We all like to listen to intelligent people, right?  For example, we like to read scientific findings when we make medical decisions for our families. Well, I like to review the opinions and findings of these independent scholars. You and I might hear the same information, but come to different conclusions. That is perfectly fine.

You really do owe it to yourself to watch this video. Maybe listen to it tonight while preparing dinner. Everything in the official investigation report is reviewed in the video. Mr.Ryan does an outstanding job. I will listen to it throughout the day, and highlight some of the most important points for you.

Ok, since I'm a WAHM, I actually have to get back to work! See you soon.....

[BeckyBird]

Moonfirefaery, thank you for peacefully discussing this subject with me. I know we have different opinions, and the fact we can talk about this openly is a good thing!

[Ldavis24]

It's not that I'm set in my believes so much as fighting for the "truth" isn't going to accomplish anything, it's not like the government is going to admit any culpability....

I would just ask out of genuine curiosity, what is the ultimate goal? Just knowing the truth? Or doing something with it or what?

[monkey's mom]

The info about Bush's brother was news to me. And wasn't there an entire shut-down of the towers that weekend--all cameras off, all locks off, and a ton of workers inside installing cable? And that the terror alert level had just been reduced?

I mean, again, this isn't a smoking gun.....but damn....shouldn't we know about this. Know that these security folks are affiliated with Bush (and backed by Kuwaitis, no?)?

I mean it all just doesn't add up.

Curtains and offices chairs did NOT burn enough to create a molten pit of metal that burned for weeks and weeks. Nor did jet fuel. And also brought down three buildings perfectly? It's just inane.  If burning rugs and chairs could do all that, why on earth would the NYFD run up 100 stories? Wouldn't they look at it and say, "This fire is going to fully involve this structure to the point of collapse? Evacuate and control the burn?" Wood responds that way, not metal. It's just unheard of.

I don't know what happened, but there are enough oddities in the stories to make one wonder wtf is going on here. Why isn't this being investigated more? This was a HUGE, huge, huge deal. Wouldn't we want to leave no stone unturned? Make sure this never happened again? Find out *exactly* what did and did not happen? I mean, our national security and intelligence gathering is this laid back?? "Eh, curtains burned it. And those chemicals we found in the melted steel that point to explosives? Eh....nah. We're not going to look into that." LOL. I mean, I don't know what all was in the reports, but the little bit that I'm seeing and the legitimate questions that are being raised by professionals in these fields that are not being addressed just seem really odd to me. For the biggest attack in our lifetimes? Very strange.

[MamieCole]

And yes, there is that too. Mother Nature could make OBL look like a harmless lil bug. Being under an overpass waiting for a stoplight to turn green=longest minute of my day. And I will drive hours out of my way rather than use the Bay Bridge. My husband finds that endearing. Not. ;)

Originally Posted by Chamomile Girl 

Every time I drive over the Golden Gate Bridge (or more often the Richmond San Rafael Bridge) I am expecting an earthquake to flatten my ass.  Because OBL may have been a terrorist, but mother nature is a capricious bitch.  AND she lives a lot closer to home.

Sorry...just saying...

Continue.