Carpooling with car seats, when your friend is ignorant

[LDSmomma]

So we (DS & I) have friends (mama & toddler) that we do lots of fun mommy & son stuff with.  When these events are far away, we carpool, alternating who's car we take.  I have had some awkward decisions to make in dealing with this over the last year.  I'd love some input to be sure I'm making the best decisions.  This mama is ignorant of carseat safety.  As an example, she has LATCH in her car, but instead uses the seatbelt to install the car seat, and uses the latch straps to wrap around the captain's chair in the minivan, and ties them together in the back.  I try to gently suggest the correct way of doing these safety things when I can, but she's sensitive about it, and I easily hurt people's feelings in having conversations like this.  So, here's what's happened, and what I've done.  I'd love input:

Situation A- My car seat in her car - 

I install DS's carseat myself, and strap him in myself.  Always (though I don't make a big deal to her about this).  This way I know he's buckled and secured properly. (She thinks I'm nuts for getting the seat in so tight, and is rolling her eyes the whole time)

Situation B- Her car seat in her car - 

I NEVER buckle her kid (I don't make a big deal about it, I just never offer to help).  I did once, and his straps were WAY too loose.  I asked how to tighten them, and she said she never does, and that she didn't want me to tighten them.  So, I decided that I would just never buckle him again, because I haven't read her car seat manual, so I can't be certain i'm doing it right, and I don't want any liability.  Though I know she's doing it wrong.  Does this mean I have liability?  

Situation C- My car seat in my car - 

I NEVER let her buckle my kid. (not making a big deal, just always helping DS in myself)

Situation D - Her car seat in my car - 

I always let her install it, and let her buckle her own kid (I adjust the front seat to make more room for her to maneuver, but otherwise stand back, but don't make a big deal about it).  My mom says this is nuts, and that I should be 100% certain every kid in my car is as safe as possible, but I figure that since I haven't read her car seat manual, I'm not sure I'd do it exactly right either, and I'd rather it not be my fault if something goes wrong.  Is that unethical?

Situation E - Her car seat in my car & she's not present - 

This happened this weekend.  She dropped her son off, and I was to meet them later, with both kids, and they were running late, so she left the car seat on my porch.  I installed the car seat using the same method I do for mine.  BUT, I think the angle was wrong, but I didn't have the instructions, so perhaps this model is always really steep.  The biggest problem I had was that the straps were all the way loose, and I COULD NOT tighten them.  It seems that the straps have gotten so gunked up with spilled food/drink that they aren't tightenable any more (I even put my knee in the seat and yanked, and I got less than an inch.   What should I do if this comes up again?

[Marissamom]

you know, just about every carseat model has the manual online, so if you know what the carseat is you can read the manual. also, any time he is in your car you are considered the adult responsible for his safety, whether you were the one that buckled him or not. 

[Lisa1970]

I would stop car pooling with her. I faced something like this recently, where my son's friends, none of them use boosters or any sort of car seat. They were all 6 this past year. Our state law says you have to use the seat until 8. I have ended up having to just say I will meet them places. My own sister refused to use any sort of car seat past 2 yrs old. She had her children forward facing by a few months old. I had to stop giving them rides because she had huge objections to them being in car seats properly. She just kept saying her children were too smart and too mature for car seats. Whatever. But I was not going to take on the liability.

Good luck with the situation.

[brennan]

At least in Canada whether or not its your kid doesn't matter, if you don't have the children properly restrained while you are driving you could get a ticket.  I had this happen before I had kids, a mom installed the car seat and put her child in and I got the ticket (I told her and she paid for it).  I did not touch the seat or the child, because I assumed she did it right.  It is the driver's responsibility to ensure all passengers under 16 are properly restrained in the car.

[blessedwithboys]

I install all seats that go in my car.  I don't are who it is or if they care about safety.  I don't even care if they know how to install it in their own car properly.  If they want their seat in my car, I install it.

And I rarely ever ride in anyone else's car bc no one I know has the patience for my careful installations.

[treqi]

I would find her car seat in a store and ask if you can try it out in your car then you can take a little bit of time to get to know the seat. I love installing car seats and can install my dd's Frontier in about a minute rock solid so practicing with yours might be a good idea as well, the hardest install I've dealt with is a FF Scerna in my parents Honda Pilot w/leather seats terribly slidey those seats are.

[TheGirls]

Well, this doesn't come up much anymore since we have 3 kids and don't fit in others' cars, but when I had just DD I carpooled a lot.  I always installed her seat in others' cars, unless it was someone I really trusted to do it right, which would be only 1 or 2 of my mama friends.  I'd have zero problem with them checking my install though if someone wanted to for their own reassurance. 

In my car I also always install seats, and insist on safe carseat practices even if the parents don't.  So my 2yo cousin who rides in a booster must be harnessed in my car (but I don't insist on RF even though she COULD).  I don't insist on BEST practice, but I do insist on properly installed, properly used seats.  So RF to at least 1, harnessed to at least 4, boostered until the adult belt fits, adult belts on everyone else. 

I ddo usually let the kids mom put them in the seat, but I wouldn't be willing to drive around with an obviously loose harness.  I'd fix that and inform the friend that I can't drive if I don't know all the kids in my car are safe. 

Ideally I'd like to see the manual, but I'd trust my own best guess as to how to install a given seat over the install of someone who is wrapping the LATCH straps around stuff.  

FWIW, a seatbelt install is equally safe, so it's ok that she uses the seatbelt instead of LATCH..  As long as it is tight.  The other stuff you mention is just bizarre...

[LDSmomma]

Considered the adult in charge by whom?  I truly think that if I actually challenge the way she is doing this, our friendship may end.  If it's a legal responsibility, or I'll be legally liable if something happens, then certainly I'll risk it, but otherwise, I'm just not comfortable confronting her parenting tactics more than I already have.  She knows I think she's doing it wrong, but tells me not to worry about it.  We recently had an argument over using a car seat on an airplane. She refuses to bring her car seat because she's worried her DS will kick the seat in front of him.  I told her if it were my kid, I'd still do it, because I would rather he be safe.  She said she doubts I would, because I'd be embarrassed that he's kicking the seat.  I explained that DS would embarrass me anyway, because he would scream the whole trip regardless, just like in church (which she's witnessed, of course), she still insists she doesn't want to be embarrassed by the person in front looking at her because he's kicking.  I don't think she will change, and I think she'll be angry that I found the car seat manual online.

Originally Posted by Marissamom 

you know, just about every carseat model has the manual online, so if you know what the carseat is you can read the manual. also, any time he is in your car you are considered the adult responsible for his safety, whether you were the one that buckled him or not. 

[LDSmomma]

Hmmm... I hadn't thought of tickets, I was just thinking of an accident.  This could be a non-confrontational way to bring it up to her.  "I learned that car seats must be installed correctly in my car so I don't get a ticket.  What's your car seat so I can read the manual to be sure we're doing it right for my car, since I don't have LATCH like you do."  Also, I could say, "Since I put your car seat in last week, I realized that I don't know exactly how to do it right, so I want to read the manual so I can be sure to do it right in the future."
 

Originally Posted by brennan 

At least in Canada whether or not its your kid doesn't matter, if you don't have the children properly restrained while you are driving you could get a ticket.  I had this happen before I had kids, a mom installed the car seat and put her child in and I got the ticket (I told her and she paid for it).  I did not touch the seat or the child, because I assumed she did it right.  It is the driver's responsibility to ensure all passengers under 16 are properly restrained in the car.

Another thought I had:  maybe I should just stop letting her ride in my car.  I can pay her for part of gas to ride in her car instead of taking my car, if we decide to car pool.

[LDSmomma]

Thank you for all your help & suggestions, mamas!  Through this brainstorming, I figured out a solution:  We have an extra car seat, and I can go ahead and install it in my car for my friend's son to be in when he's in our car.  This way, I can be sure he's buckled right, because I can say, "this car seat has to be tightened, like this" without offending her, and it will seem that I've installed this one to be more convenient than switching her car seat all the time.  

[blessedwithboys]

Perfect solution!

[MacKinnon]

Great solution! As a tech, that's one I've used before too... "I just had an extra seat so it is already installed." I wanted to point out that a poorly installed seat and/or incorrectly restrained child could both become projectiles in a crash and harm YOUR child. It's more than "just" about the law, or parenting choices. It's hard because you don't want to be questioning her decisions but also don't want to be putting your child at risk. I'm glad you found a good option that works for you

[khaoskat]

IMHO - from a legal standpoint, if the child is in your car, and the carseat is installed wrong (regardless of who installed it), you would still be legally liable for any injuries that child receives while riding in your car in the event of an accident (again regardless of who was at fault - you or another driver).  It is called contributory negligence.  The child would not have been hurt (or as seriously hurt) had he been properly restrained in his carseat and the carseat properly installed.

I have run across this several times with my son's school, as we do parent transport for all activities (and we carpool the kids).  Ohio law has changed to require all kids under 8 to be in a booster.  I refuse to transport a child under the age of 8 if they do not have a carseat or booster.  I always carry my eldest's booster seat, as he legally does not need it, but I still prefer him to use it, and will us it for transportation at school if needed of other kids.  I have also seen parents use a harnessed seat as a booster.  They put the seat in the car, buckle them into the harness, then use the lap/shoulder belt over the top of that to hold them in place.  I have fixed the problem, after the parent has left and installed the seat their way, I redo it the correct way.  For me, it is more than a ticket, as an attorney who does a lot of appointment work, getting a ticket for child endangering could loose a significant portion of my income as I would be kicked off most of the appointment lists.