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post #61 of 133
Thread Starter 

Exactly. I mean..she is good and she enjoys it. But as far as I can tell, when she does well in music, people are so great to her. They tell her how talented she is and how great she does. But when she does well in math and science, which she does very well in, there is never positive feedback from anyone except me and dh. All her kudos come from how she does in music. Maybe she would get in to Julliard, but I think it would be a long shot. Plus, I do thinking she does not LOVE music as much as she says she does. She does enjoy it and it is a tension reliever, but I think she just loves the attention she gets over her music. Unfortunately, we seem to be surrounded by people who do not value someone being brainy and in to thinks like books, math, science, etc, but will fall all over a dance recital or playing music. She gets a lot of attention for it from certain relatives who ignore her the rest of the time (like grandparents, she does not have a single grandparent who seems to notice her, until she plays her music and then they make a big deal of it). 
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ldavis24 View Post

I just wanted to add with a cousin who recently graduated from Julliard (well over a year go but semi-recent)...

Julliard is NOT the kind of school where you just apply and that is that. Unless you are a prodigy in some way the odds of being accepted are slim. For my cousin she was specifically asked to attend and she accepted. They can be really picky and my cousin said you basically either know someone who knows someone, they ask you or you apply. The odds of anyone getting in just by applying is pretty slim, they only take a very small number of straight applicants each year. If your DD is good at music that is nice but that probably doesn't translate into talented enough to attend Julliard...Don't want to be mean that is just the way it is...



 

post #62 of 133

Sorry OP, I couldn't quote your post no. 61 above, but here's my perspective:

 

Maybe it is true that some people don't value math and science, but I think it is less an issue of value it and more an issue of being able to relate to music and art and the deep emotional response that music and art elicits in people.  There is something about music and art that evokes a response in all of us, even if we are not musicians or artists ourselves.  It is something that humans respond to and feel compelled to comment on.  Math and science is more abstract, it does not elicit an emotion within us, unless of course, we are excited about the subject itself.

 

Most people would rather sit through and comment on a mediocre performance of Fur Elise than read and comment on an abstract about, let's say, plant life in the Paleolithic era.  All of us respond to music and art in some way.  It is immediate and satisfying.  It is something that we all feel qualified to critique.  I highly value math and science and the roles they play in our society.  Sometimes I wish that I was interested in them.  However, my eyes totally glaze over when people delve into discussions about math and science.  It is not that I don't value it; I just can't relate.  

 

Has your DD ever gone to a camp or participated with professionals in the scientific community?  I think it would make a huge difference to get positive feedback from actual professionals.  It makes a big difference to be around people who are passionate about what they do.  Right now she may be good at science and math, but if she does not get positive feedback (as in mentoring or field experience) than I don't blame her for gravitating toward experiences that give her a sense of recognition and accomplishment.  If possible, I would try to expose her to as much as possible now.  If she still doesn't like it, at least she tasted it.  

post #63 of 133

My parents don't understand diddly-squat about math and science, but they still praised me for aptitude I showed in it... I think that it's true that more people respond to the arts but it also sounds like some of the family members are not paying too much attention to the child's other talents. Which is unfortunate, I think.

 

I agree, if she had an opportunity to use these talents in another setting, it could be really helpful for her. I did a camp or two and a couple of externships--gave me a bit of a view outside the classroom.

post #64 of 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by erigeron View Post

My parents don't understand diddly-squat about math and science, but they still praised me for aptitude I showed in it... I think that it's true that more people respond to the arts but it also sounds like some of the family members are not paying too much attention to the child's other talents. Which is unfortunate, I think.

 

I agree, if she had an opportunity to use these talents in another setting, it could be really helpful for her. I did a camp or two and a couple of externships--gave me a bit of a view outside the classroom.


True, but how do you praise other talents (specifically math and science)?  You can brag to other people about the top grades that your grandchild gets, but how does extended family reinforce high aptitude in those interests?  You can keep saying over and over:  you're so smart, I can't believe how good you are in science, etc., but unless you are in the lab or have some kind of basic understanding of what the child is doing, then it is very hard to honestly critique and recognize what the other person is doing.  I'm not talking about parents here, but extended family.  I don't have enough information from OP to understand what is really going on, but from a general standpoint, I understand that people tend to have a hard time expressing themselves regarding things that aren't on their radar.  Perhaps OP's extended family are the most shallow people alive, or perhaps they just don't get it, or maybe they know their grandchild is smart but it is much easier for them to express praise for musical talents.   Point being, other people aren't responsible for putting the OP's child out into society.  Other people might have peripheral influence, but the OP and her spouse ultimately must find a way to nurture and encourage the child to pursue the thing that will be most beneficial for her in her adult life.  But then again, the OP's daughter may eventually find her own way...in a way that is not on the radar now.  Isn't that what happens to a lot of us?

 

post #65 of 133

I'll start with a disclaimer: I'm a university professor, so personally, I highly value college education. Furthermore, I have a 'useless' BA (German). I started off in a 'useful' degree track (biomedical engineering) and switched majors twice -- once to biology (pre-med) and once to German. I wasn't truly happy until I found German linguistics. So even if your child starts off in a practical field, they might not stay there. However, I teach at a 'non-traditional' university. Many of our students have tried other career paths and are coming back for the 4 year degree because they can't get where they want without it. And some are coming back for the sheer love of learning. I really like teaching this type of student because they're motivated and really interesting.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lisa1970 View Post

Do you think I should just not worry about it and if music is her passion, tell her to go for it?

 

A quick answer to your question: Yes. This was my parents' philosophy and it worked well. The way my mom framed it was "You could be pursuing your passion and looking for a job that meets your passion, or you could be competing for a job in accounting against people who actually want to be accountants. Which would you rather do?" I have a brother in law who is a master carpenter (his work is brilliant) who found his passion when on a service project for college. He went to help restore old houses for low income people and found a passion for carpentry. He never got a 4 year degree and never missed it. A good friend of mine wanted to be a pilot, but her parents wouldn't pay for her to go to school someplace where she could pursue that. So, she ended up being miserable for 2 years at another school and then transferring and paying for it on her own. However, it took her 10 years to get enough flying time to become a commercial pilot (and by that time the bottom had fallen out of the airline industry) and she was never able to pursue her dream. I'm still mad at her parents for that!

 

Personally, I'd rather have my children puruse their dream and fail than to not try.

 

Now on to the more abstract debate:

First-- we need to distinguish several types of education. A general liberal arts education, a professional degree (such as education, engineering or music school) and trade school (plumbing, mechanic, cooking school). The value of a general liberal arts education is there, but it's sometimes hard to pinpoint. Ideally, a good liberal arts education will teach you to think well and critically, to write well, and how to learn new information. It should, ideally, teach you how to be more than just an employee, but to seek out good answers, think about what you're asked to do and to think creatively. Alas, not all institutions achieve this, especially in a day of a growing sense of entitlement among students (and their parents -- I've had parents contact me because their student got a bad grade!).

 

A general liberal arts education is one that someone can achieve on their own through deep reading, thinking and talking to others. It's rare, but it can be done. (Abraham Lincoln was self educated as were many great women thinkers because they didn't have access to higher education.)

 

I think a lot of HR departments use the 4 year degree as a (not very effective) screening tool. I'd just as soon see them give a test of general knowledge and writing, but the truth of the matter is that it's easier to accept someone else's judgment that this person can write and think.

 

Professional degrees such as engineering or business prepare you to work in a specific field. They're not as broad as a liberal arts degree, but there's more of a sense of what you'll do when you're done. The 'problem' is that if you end up not wanting to do that thing, then what? I think that a lot of students who don't know what they want to do end up in a professional degree and don't get much out of it (if you hate marketing and you're stuck in an business degree, what are you learning?) But they stay because they think it'll earn them money. Those are the students I worry about the most, because I find them jaded and disinterested.

 

Finally, there are the trades. I really wish that a lot of students who aren't academically inclined but are good with their hands and quick with their minds would consider the trades. There's a difference between getting a $12 an hour job in construction that won't go much of any place and becoming a skilled carpenter or mechanic. There are good stable jobs around for people in the trades, if they've got training and persistence. A college degree isn't the only path to a stable income. While I've seen a lot of non-traditional students come back to college and succeed, I've also seen some students who I know could succeed in other environtments and are really taking a blow to their self-esteem by being in college. They're not stupid. They're just not academic. But there's no way that I, as a professor, can look at them and say "have you considered becoming an electrician?"
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by cappuccinosmom View Post
Dh will make sure our children get some kind of post-highschool education.  That is an unquestioned mandate in our house.  But it will probably look very different than what most people think of when they think "college".  Hopefully in 10 or so years as they get to that age, the opportunities for alternative and distance learning will be much greater.

 

That, I think, is a sound way to look at it. They need post-highschool education. They may or may not need college. Given who my children are, college is the most likely path for them. Let's face it, my 6 year old who has earnest discussions about whether it's better to learn what a noun is before you learn what an adjective is, or vice versa, is probably not going to be happy in a trade. But you never know.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lisa1970 View Post

With the PSATs in the fall, they have to put down, I think, a selection of colleges to send their scores to. I know they can add more later (for an extra cost) so I wanted the to at least think about colleges and maybe places they might want to look at closer. They have gotten a lot of college materials in the mail this year. My son has a very reasonable college with a variety of majors available. My daughter only wants to apply to Julliard. She is very smart and makes good grades, but Julliard is a hard one to get in to. Plus, if she goes there and decides later she does not want to major in music, she will sort of be out of luck.

 

She's a high school freshman or sophomore, right? This isn't an age group known for realistic plans. winky.gif I take everything a 15 year old says with a grain of salt. Or maybe a shaker of salt. 

 

My response to this would be "Julliard would be really cool! What about Julliard do you think you'd like?" At another time I'd raise the question "Do any other schools have those characteristics?" If I remember correctly, this is also the child who is deeply unhappy in her current school. I wouldn't push the issue too much. Let her dream. Look up some music schools together. Plan a trip to make a few college visits in her junior year. Have her talk to the people who teach her music and performers that she's around. Let THEM tell her that Julliard is a stretch!

 

Edited to remove random quotes


Edited by LynnS6 - 5/6/11 at 12:45pm
post #66 of 133
Thread Starter 

I am 40 now, as is my husband. We are STILL paying off our student loans. I had parents who were not in my life and the college I went to gave me a bunch of student loans for financial aid. I was young and did not know better and took them. My husband had parents in his life, but did not know to apply for scholarships and financial aid. So he took out straight loans too to pay when they did not. Stupidly, we were both national merits so we would have been able to get scholarships...if we had known how! His major ended up being computer science. I stupidly always wanted to major in nursing, well, the stupid part is that I went to a college that did not have nursing. I have a degree in economics, something I was never terribly interested in. So, having had a child with a disability right out of college, we had to put the loans in deferment and struggle to pay his medical bills. Now we owe 2.5 times what we owed to begin with, and it was $40,000 almost when we first graduated. Our loan payments are $1200 a month! I am not sure I ever would have found employment in economics. I live in Texas and the public schools do not require teaching certificates for their teachers, or even degrees in the subject area. So I did work as a teacher for a year here (and hated it). Maybe if I did not have my time and energy devoted so much to a child with a disability and extensive medical problems, maybe I would have found other work with my degree. 

 

I think if she were not so hyper focused on Juilliard, this would not be as much of an issue. Maybe I am underestimating her and she will get in there and life will go on and be happily ever after. I am also not too eager to pour a bunch of money in to a degree that won't help her with future employment. I have tried to explain to her what a ball and chain student loans are, but I don't think she is getting it. Plus, her PSAT scores are high enough that when she takes them in 11th grade (she took them this past year too) she might end up qualifying for national merit. If she does, some colleges (like our state universities) give full ride scholarships. But she says she won't consider those. I am having a hard time justifying trying to pay for an expensive college for her, when she could have had a scholarship elsewhere. I am not even sure if a school like Juilliard would even have scholarships as it seems to be pretty hard to get in to and elite. I told my daughter to look in to that and she came back saying she could not find any, but that Juilliard is cheaper than most other schools.

 

 

 

 

post #67 of 133
Thread Starter 

She is in EPGY and can go to their camp. They have math and science with it. But she wants to go to Interlochen. We can afford to send her to one, it would be unreasonable to send her to both.  I have gotten flyers from other programs through other state programs but do not know much about them. I maybe should look in to them more. (the state stuff is science and math and engineering) so it is less expensive. Since she really wants to go to Interlochen, I would feel bad about forcing the science camp on her, but I think she would love the science camp and it would open her mind to other possibilities. What should I do?
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatsCradle View Post

Sorry OP, I couldn't quote your post no. 61 above, but here's my perspective:

 

Maybe it is true that some people don't value math and science, but I think it is less an issue of value it and more an issue of being able to relate to music and art and the deep emotional response that music and art elicits in people.  There is something about music and art that evokes a response in all of us, even if we are not musicians or artists ourselves.  It is something that humans respond to and feel compelled to comment on.  Math and science is more abstract, it does not elicit an emotion within us, unless of course, we are excited about the subject itself.

 

Most people would rather sit through and comment on a mediocre performance of Fur Elise than read and comment on an abstract about, let's say, plant life in the Paleolithic era.  All of us respond to music and art in some way.  It is immediate and satisfying.  It is something that we all feel qualified to critique.  I highly value math and science and the roles they play in our society.  Sometimes I wish that I was interested in them.  However, my eyes totally glaze over when people delve into discussions about math and science.  It is not that I don't value it; I just can't relate.  

 

Has your DD ever gone to a camp or participated with professionals in the scientific community?  I think it would make a huge difference to get positive feedback from actual professionals.  It makes a big difference to be around people who are passionate about what they do.  Right now she may be good at science and math, but if she does not get positive feedback (as in mentoring or field experience) than I don't blame her for gravitating toward experiences that give her a sense of recognition and accomplishment.  If possible, I would try to expose her to as much as possible now.  If she still doesn't like it, at least she tasted it.  



 

post #68 of 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lisa1970 View Post

I am 40 now, as is my husband. We are STILL paying off our student loans. I had parents who were not in my life and the college I went to gave me a bunch of student loans for financial aid. I was young and did not know better and took them. My husband had parents in his life, but did not know to apply for scholarships and financial aid. So he took out straight loans too to pay when they did not. Stupidly, we were both national merits so we would have been able to get scholarships...if we had known how! His major ended up being computer science. I stupidly always wanted to major in nursing, well, the stupid part is that I went to a college that did not have nursing. I have a degree in economics, something I was never terribly interested in. So, having had a child with a disability right out of college, we had to put the loans in deferment and struggle to pay his medical bills. Now we owe 2.5 times what we owed to begin with, and it was $40,000 almost when we first graduated. Our loan payments are $1200 a month! I am not sure I ever would have found employment in economics. I live in Texas and the public schools do not require teaching certificates for their teachers, or even degrees in the subject area. So I did work as a teacher for a year here (and hated it). Maybe if I did not have my time and energy devoted so much to a child with a disability and extensive medical problems, maybe I would have found other work with my degree. 

 

I think if she were not so hyper focused on Juilliard, this would not be as much of an issue. Maybe I am underestimating her and she will get in there and life will go on and be happily ever after. I am also not too eager to pour a bunch of money in to a degree that won't help her with future employment. I have tried to explain to her what a ball and chain student loans are, but I don't think she is getting it. Plus, her PSAT scores are high enough that when she takes them in 11th grade (she took them this past year too) she might end up qualifying for national merit. If she does, some colleges (like our state universities) give full ride scholarships. But she says she won't consider those. I am having a hard time justifying trying to pay for an expensive college for her, when she could have had a scholarship elsewhere. I am not even sure if a school like Juilliard would even have scholarships as it seems to be pretty hard to get in to and elite. I told my daughter to look in to that and she came back saying she could not find any, but that Juilliard is cheaper than most other schools.

 

 

 

 


Here's the link to Juilliard's schedule of fees for the 2010/2011 academic year:

 

http://www.juilliard.edu/apply/tuition.php

 

Compare/contrast with other music schools (most probably show their schedules of fees online).

 

Here's some basic info providing that some scholarships are offered at Juilliard based on need and merit:

 

http://www.juilliard.edu/apply/financial-aid/scholarships.php

 

 

 

post #69 of 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by lookatreestar View Post

yup, my dh is a chef self taught and this is the best way in his opinion. it was a running joke at his old job that when they would get a newbie from the culinary school- they'd give them 2 weeks before they quit. it is a lot of hard work you don't just skip to being a food network star. the food biz is something you need to really enjoy- its tough.
 



 


I'm a self taught software engineer and I'm awfully glad that I make a six figure salary and have no student loans. The whole third level education system in the US is one of the biggest rackets going.

 

 

ETA: Has she mentioned how she plans to support herself post-college? Any ideas about what she might actually do to generate enough income to survive?
 

 


Edited by choli - 5/5/11 at 8:35pm
post #70 of 133


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bokonon View Post





Exactly - the Peace Corp really stresses at least a bachelor's degree.



One of my friends with a BA was turned down by the Peace Core. They want people with degrees who know how to do things they need done -- engineers, nurses, public health. They don't have much use for liberal arts folks who just need an excuse to travel.

 

 



Quote:
Originally Posted by K1329 View Post

I keep reading about debt being a factor in choosing to skip college - a degree does not necessarily equate to large amounts of debt. I work at a top 50 university (read expensive) and our average student indebtedness at graduation is 16,000.00. When I graduated, I was debt free. Scholarships, grants and other programs are available. For my kids, should they choose college (and i hope they do), I hope to help them find ways to graduate low debt/debt free. Too many students unnecessarily maximize their loan amounts, IMO.


I've brought up debt several times and I think it is a consideration. To me, it's not a reason to SKIP college, it's a reason to look at the numbers and make a real plan, which could include scholarships, community college, work study, etc.

 

We don't have the money to give each kid 50K a year to go find themselves. We just don't. I don't see saddling a 22 year old with 200,000 in debt as good parenting.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lisa1970 View Post

 

Plus, her PSAT scores are high enough that when she takes them in 11th grade (she took them this past year too) she might end up qualifying for national merit. If she does, some colleges (like our state universities) give full ride scholarships. But she says she won't consider those. I am having a hard time justifying trying to pay for an expensive college for her, when she could have had a scholarship elsewhere. I am not even sure if a school like Juilliard would even have scholarships as it seems to be pretty hard to get in to and elite. I told my daughter to look in to that and she came back saying she could not find any, but that Juilliard is cheaper than most other schools.

 


I'm starting to wonder if this has anything at all to do with college. I wonder what the real problem is.

 

Any kid smart enough for a national merit scholarship is smart enough to use goggle to find out about expenses of schools and scholarships.

 

What is really going on with her? Is she otherwise happy and easy to get along with? Does she often just want to shot herself in the foot?

 

I'm all for following dreams, but if a kid can get a full ride to a state U to major in whatever they want, they are kind of fool to turn it down without a very solid alternative.

 

post #71 of 133

I went through a phase close to graduating where I insisted I was NOT going to college. It was just all the pressure and I didn't know why the hell I had to go or what I was going to do there when I did go...She might be feeling unsure in general. A lot of kids just feel pressured to go SOMEWHERE, anywhere at all because that is "what you do"...Probably part of the reason I ended up just dropping out due to disinterest, I had no idea what I was doing there short of meeting DH and having a great time with friends. I didn't even have to pay for it. My grandparents paid what the scholarships I got didn't cover. I was very lucky not to have ANY debt from it but I still felt lost there. 

 

So many kids are nervous about, just ask her if there is other stuff going on. She might just be panicking about it in general and trying to pass it off as something else because the reality is very stressful to her.

post #72 of 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by CatsCradle View Post




Here's the link to Juilliard's schedule of fees for the 2010/2011 academic year:

 

http://www.juilliard.edu/apply/tuition.php

 

Compare/contrast with other music schools (most probably show their schedules of fees online).

 

Here's some basic info providing that some scholarships are offered at Juilliard based on need and merit:

 

http://www.juilliard.edu/apply/financial-aid/scholarships.php

 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lisa1970 View Post

I am 40 now, as is my husband. We are STILL paying off our student loans. I had parents who were not in my life and the college I went to gave me a bunch of student loans for financial aid. I was young and did not know better and took them. My husband had parents in his life, but did not know to apply for scholarships and financial aid. So he took out straight loans too to pay when they did not. Stupidly, we were both national merits so we would have been able to get scholarships...if we had known how! His major ended up being computer science. I stupidly always wanted to major in nursing, well, the stupid part is that I went to a college that did not have nursing. I have a degree in economics, something I was never terribly interested in. So, having had a child with a disability right out of college, we had to put the loans in deferment and struggle to pay his medical bills. Now we owe 2.5 times what we owed to begin with, and it was $40,000 almost when we first graduated. Our loan payments are $1200 a month! I am not sure I ever would have found employment in economics. I live in Texas and the public schools do not require teaching certificates for their teachers, or even degrees in the subject area. So I did work as a teacher for a year here (and hated it). Maybe if I did not have my time and energy devoted so much to a child with a disability and extensive medical problems, maybe I would have found other work with my degree. 

 

I think if she were not so hyper focused on Juilliard, this would not be as much of an issue. Maybe I am underestimating her and she will get in there and life will go on and be happily ever after. I am also not too eager to pour a bunch of money in to a degree that won't help her with future employment. I have tried to explain to her what a ball and chain student loans are, but I don't think she is getting it. Plus, her PSAT scores are high enough that when she takes them in 11th grade (she took them this past year too) she might end up qualifying for national merit. If she does, some colleges (like our state universities) give full ride scholarships. But she says she won't consider those. I am having a hard time justifying trying to pay for an expensive college for her, when she could have had a scholarship elsewhere. I am not even sure if a school like Juilliard would even have scholarships as it seems to be pretty hard to get in to and elite. I told my daughter to look in to that and she came back saying she could not find any, but that Juilliard is cheaper than most other schools.

 

 

 

 


If your dd is accepted to Juilliard she will get a scholarship. That's a guarantee. There are no "filler" students at Juilliard, meaning they don't pad their student body with less talented students for money. In fact, just a few years ago, Juilliard was considering giving free tuition to all it's students. I don't think that has happened, however. Now, as far as being accepted...she will need to submit a recording to be prescreened, and then will be granted an audition based on the recording. If she gets past the first level, then she'll need to audition in person. It is a very competitive music school. Most of the students there are in the high school training program, but they do accept kids they've never met before. You do not need to know someone to get in, it's pretty much based on talent. Also, if she's accepted, she will have a music career, unless something extreme happens. She should also look at other schools, however. She should apply to Manhattan School of Music, New England Conservatory, Northwestern University, Indiana University, The Cleveland School of Music, Oberlin and Rice. Those are all excellent schools and have very good string programs.
The truth is that music is a tough, tough road. Almost all my friends and family members are musicians. My brother, a professional violinist, practices at least 6 hours a day, plus rehearsals and concerts. Auditioning is tiring, and performing is incredibly nerve racking. I think people would be blown away if they knew what the working environment is like for us! At a certain level conductors expect perfection. People get screamed and humiliated during rehearsals. Heck a few weeks ago a guy I was doing a gig with wasn't pulling his weight and got fired in the middle of a rehearsal. On the other hand, I cant imagine doing anything else. I've been doing this my whole life. I've never seriously considered a different career. Once a person wants to be a musician it's really hard to convince them otherwise. My mom is an opera singer, so she had the luxury of understanding the business when we were applying to college. Since you aren't a musician yourself, you'll need to rely on your daughter's teacher. Talk to him or her and get an assessment of your DDs potential. If her teacher thinks she has a shot at it, I would support her fully.
post #73 of 133

Well, if the alternative to music is science, you might want to consider that a BA in science is not necessarily going to land a particularly lucrative job either.  From my short, somewhat uninformed carreer in biology, I found that without a masters or docorate you just didn't make much money.  Not that money is everything - it surely isn't.  I did feel a bit gypped, though, when I finished my degree with high honors, landed a good job, and made much less than what my friends made in business or social work.

 

Tjej

post #74 of 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tjej View Post

Well, if the alternative to music is science, you might want to consider that a BA in science is not necessarily going to land a particularly lucrative job either.  From my short, somewhat uninformed carreer in biology, I found that without a masters or docorate you just didn't make much money.  Not that money is everything - it surely isn't.  I did feel a bit gypped, though, when I finished my degree with high honors, landed a good job, and made much less than what my friends made in business or social work.

 

Tjej


This.  I climbed to the MA level of pay for my career (even though I don't have the degree, it is # of units) and I made far less than many of my friends without degrees.  I was a teacher.  I live in Silicon Valley.  I am literally surrounded by geeks.  A rather high percentage do not have college degrees.  Not 50%, but probably more than 35%.  I do not see how me going off and earning my degree (even though it was the only thing that allowed me to get the specific job I wanted) was the key to me making more money.  Around here being obsessed with programming will make you money.  My daughter is going to turn 3 this month.  We already talk to her about the concepts behind programming.  We want her to be able to make that jump early.  I think that is a lot more important for future financial success in this world.

 

post #75 of 133

I had an amazing four years at college.  I learned so much about life, met my husband and some of my best friends, and got a B.A.  It was a small religious school and I got a degree in Women's Studies (which many people would consider one of those fluff degrees) before almost immediately becoming a mostly SAHM.  But I have a degree, and for that I am so grateful!  I have amazing memories and friends that I will forever love, and for that I am so grateful.  My husband has a decent paying job, because he has a degree.  His job has absolutely NOTHING to do with his degree (International Relations), but they just wanted someone with a B.A.  I am pro-college.  I won't force my kids to go, and I think there is value in waiting a few years (and earning money!) before college.  But my awesome college experience is something that I would love my kids to share.

 

Also, my experience is different because thanks to hard work, my parents, and mostly the school I chose, I have no student debt.  Neither does my husband.  It is possible.  

post #76 of 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottishmommy View Post


If your dd is accepted to Juilliard she will get a scholarship. That's a guarantee. There are no "filler" students at Juilliard, meaning they don't pad their student body with less talented students for money. In fact, just a few years ago, Juilliard was considering giving free tuition to all it's students. I don't think that has happened, however. Now, as far as being accepted...she will need to submit a recording to be prescreened, and then will be granted an audition based on the recording. If she gets past the first level, then she'll need to audition in person. It is a very competitive music school. Most of the students there are in the high school training program, but they do accept kids they've never met before. You do not need to know someone to get in, it's pretty much based on talent. Also, if she's accepted, she will have a music career, unless something extreme happens. She should also look at other schools, however. She should apply to Manhattan School of Music, New England Conservatory, Northwestern University, Indiana University, The Cleveland School of Music, Oberlin and Rice. Those are all excellent schools and have very good string programs.
The truth is that music is a tough, tough road. Almost all my friends and family members are musicians. My brother, a professional violinist, practices at least 6 hours a day, plus rehearsals and concerts. Auditioning is tiring, and performing is incredibly nerve racking. I think people would be blown away if they knew what the working environment is like for us! At a certain level conductors expect perfection. People get screamed and humiliated during rehearsals. Heck a few weeks ago a guy I was doing a gig with wasn't pulling his weight and got fired in the middle of a rehearsal. On the other hand, I cant imagine doing anything else. I've been doing this my whole life. I've never seriously considered a different career. Once a person wants to be a musician it's really hard to convince them otherwise. My mom is an opera singer, so she had the luxury of understanding the business when we were applying to college. Since you aren't a musician yourself, you'll need to rely on your daughter's teacher. Talk to him or her and get an assessment of your DDs potential. If her teacher thinks she has a shot at it, I would support her fully.


All of this.  I was offered auditions because had private lessons and fabulous performance opportunities from 7th grade on- I was already playing with a School of Music before I headed off to college, and I had a number of recordings.  Any place I auditioned and was accepted made it very clear that there would be a scholarship if necessary (I did have financial need as well.)  Frankly, if someone has that level of talent, they will not have many, if any,  outstanding loans.  In my case, I am not a string player and the level of competition- while still stiff, is not quite as cutthroat. 

 

For those of us who are  musicians, sometimes looking at another career path just isn't an option.  We are driven to perform, and miserable as the rehearsals can be (imagine 6 hours in a practice room for weeks on end perfecting this http://www.hornexcerpts.org/excerpt_pages/wagnerSLC/wagnerSLC_1.html ) we wouldn't know how to live our lives without it.  When I wasn't able to perform for a while- I dreamed every night of it, it was so deeply a part of myself, that setting it aside was not, and never will be, an option.  If this is where your daughter is-  please support her completely in this choice, because it may not be a choice as much as it is a passion and a drive and a need, and she may not be able to shelve it for a more 'stable' job.

 

The first step though, is assessing her talent, and you will want to talk with a couple professionals about that. 

 

post #77 of 133
Thread Starter 


No, she is not. I am considering taking her to a psychologist because she has been having big issues. I think it might still be stemming from last year. She attended a public school (she is in public now, but it was a different school last year) and was stalked and sexually harassed and threatened by a boy. Turned out, in Texas, kids in school have no legal rights. Short of paying hundreds of thousands of dollars for lawyers, there was nothing we could do. The boy got away with it and we had to leave the school for her protection. Ever since, she has been cranky and difficult to handle. Plus, in the birth family, there is a history of bipolar disorder. So I am really wonder what is going on and considering sending her to a psychologist. It is just that from our experience, there are year long waiting lists for psychologists so it is going to be a while before she can even get an initial appointment. 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Linda on the move View Post


 



One of my friends with a BA was turned down by the Peace Core. They want people with degrees who know how to do things they need done -- engineers, nurses, public health. They don't have much use for liberal arts folks who just need an excuse to travel.

 

 




I've brought up debt several times and I think it is a consideration. To me, it's not a reason to SKIP college, it's a reason to look at the numbers and make a real plan, which could include scholarships, community college, work study, etc.

 

We don't have the money to give each kid 50K a year to go find themselves. We just don't. I don't see saddling a 22 year old with 200,000 in debt as good parenting.

 


I'm starting to wonder if this has anything at all to do with college. I wonder what the real problem is.

 

Any kid smart enough for a national merit scholarship is smart enough to use goggle to find out about expenses of schools and scholarships.

 

What is really going on with her? Is she otherwise happy and easy to get along with? Does she often just want to shot herself in the foot?

 

I'm all for following dreams, but if a kid can get a full ride to a state U to major in whatever they want, they are kind of fool to turn it down without a very solid alternative.

 



 

post #78 of 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lisa1970 View Post


No, she is not. I am considering taking her to a psychologist because she has been having big issues. I think it might still be stemming from last year. She attended a public school (she is in public now, but it was a different school last year) and was stalked and sexually harassed and threatened by a boy. Turned out, in Texas, kids in school have no legal rights. Short of paying hundreds of thousands of dollars for lawyers, there was nothing we could do. The boy got away with it and we had to leave the school for her protection. Ever since, she has been cranky and difficult to handle. Plus, in the birth family, there is a history of bipolar disorder. So I am really wonder what is going on and considering sending her to a psychologist. It is just that from our experience, there are year long waiting lists for psychologists so it is going to be a while before she can even get an initial appointment. 



 



It sounds like making an appointment should be top priority.  If there is a waiting list, then you should get on one if necessary, before there is an emergency and you can't get one.

 

That said, I've never heard of a troubled person having difficulty getting in to see a therapist within the week.  College sounds like the least of your worries.  Please get her some help before she spirals out of control.  I dealt with teenage depression and it could have been disastrous if my parents hadn't recognized that I needed help.

post #79 of 133
If I had a kid who got accepted to Julliard, I'd be fine with her getting a music degree because she'd have such a high level of talent that she'd be able to support herself. But I do consider college to be an investment. If I'm paying for it, I would generally want her to do a double major or something, if music were something she wanted to study. If she's paying for it, I'd still strongly encourage that, because I dont want to see her with a ton of student loan debt and no good income potential.
post #80 of 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lisa1970 View Post

She is in EPGY and can go to their camp. They have math and science with it. But she wants to go to Interlochen. We can afford to send her to one, it would be unreasonable to send her to both.  I have gotten flyers from other programs through other state programs but do not know much about them. I maybe should look in to them more. (the state stuff is science and math and engineering) so it is less expensive. Since she really wants to go to Interlochen, I would feel bad about forcing the science camp on her, but I think she would love the science camp and it would open her mind to other possibilities. What should I do?
 



Let her go to music camp. Please! If you can afford Interlochen and you think her mental health will be up to the stress of being away from home for that period of time, why would you withhold something from her that she passionately wants to do? If you want her to be a scientist, the fastest way to make her never want anything to do with math/science is to force her to go to a science camp.

 

I'm having a bit of trouble because you keep asking what you should do. She's old enough to have some say in this. What does she want to do? It is not your place to tell her she doesn't have enough talent or money to get into Julliard. At some point in the very near future, that will become clear, or if it doesn't, maybe she does have enough talent. What better way to find out than to spend a few weeks with kids who are all highly talented? It's pretty easy being a big fish in a smallish pond. If your just another fish in the pond, it helps you get perspective.

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