How to flee my hitting child!

[~Denise~]

Sorry if the title is a bit wierd; I'm not really sure how to put it. 

Our 4yo DS has been having awful tantrums lately--probably overtired, because unfortunately we've had a spate of important evening meetings so he's gotten to bed late a few times this week. 

When DS has a tantrum, he screams at the top of his lungs, hits and pulls at me, calls me "stupid", and shouts demands over and over and over and over and over and over and ..... Like tonight: he only ate a small portion of his lunch at daycare (not so uncommon), and I knew he was tired and hungry. He asked for cereal, I suggested he finish his eggs or his beans from lunch instead (also a common thing we do so as to avoid little containers of leftovers), and before I knew it he was demanding I make him quesadillas and screaming. When I asked him not to scream and tried to explain why I didn't intend to make quesadillas when he already had foods he likes in his lunchbox, things quickly escalated into him hitting and screaming and shouting his demands. 

I have no idea where this demand mentality came from. It's really bothersome. 

Anyway, I absolutely cannot take being pummeled and screamed at and called stupid. My approach when he was younger and having tantrums was to leave the room or move him to another room if that wasn't feasible (like I needed to finish cooking, or finish work, or whatever). I need my space so I can cool down. 

When he was younger, I could put him on our bed, go back to the other room, and he'd finish screaming in the other room. When he got a little older, he'd follow me out of the room a few times with arms swinging, but I'd only have to scoop him up a few times and set him back on the bed before he'd give up the chase, and I'd be able to cool down in the other room. DH never liked this approach, because he felt I was putting DS in a "time out" without really calling it what it was. His approach would be to bear hug DS on our bed until DS calmed down. I could see his point about it being like a punishing "time out" for DS, even though I had intended for it to be a time out for myself...

Anyway, now with this latest spate of tantrums, I am really at wits end. 

--If I try to take a "time out" myself, DS chases me into the next room and keeps hitting and hurling insults.

--If I try to put DS in the bedroom, close the bedroom door, and close the hallway door, he will still follow me out dozens of times (he no longer tires of this), still hitting, pulling, screaming, etc. 

--I even tried DH's method, which frankly I never felt seemed that much more effective but at least DS wouldn't feel "abandoned" by this approach, right?. But I just really can't take it. DS is strong and determined, and I try to use one hand to control his hands and the other to cover my ear, and it's fatiguing and doesn't help me feel calmer either. Plus then DS is in range to pull hair and clothes, and I really just can't take the screaming and "stupid Mommy" insults. I gave up before DS did. (And I can't get a word in edgewise, soothing or otherwise, to calm this tantrum.)

--OK, so a few dozen minutes into this and I am losing my cool. I'm going back to the "move the child to the other room" method. And this is where I get evil. I closed the bedroom door and the hallway door, but hid in the bathroom on the opposite end of the hall, so he went out into the living room and I could finally get a few minutes of respite. But then DS freaked out because he couldn't find me and I felt awful and went to get him. 

I know, this is fodder for flaming. I just don't know WHAT to do when these tantrums start.

I mean, eventually tonight, after about 45 minutes, he was finally quieter (though still mad), demanding an apology for the bear hug approach (guess DH's theory about it being nicer was wrong?). So I asked DS if he knew why I kept leaving the room, and why I held his arms and legs on the bed, and explained that it was because that was the only way I could get him to stop HITTING me. That I don't like being hit, and that it hurts, and that those were the only ways I could think of to protect myself from all the HITTING. He was really silent after that, just looked really thoughful for a couple of minutes. Then he reached out his arms and asked if he could eat his pea pods in my lap, and then he cuddled in my lap, told me he loved me, and promptly fell asleep. 

I know I need to think prevention--get the kid to bed sooner, somehow arrange my life so I never have to bring my kid to late evening meetings while my husband is at work, etc. But the unfortunate fact is that sometimes in life I will end up with a mad kid--maybe tired, maybe sick, maybe irritable for some other reason--and I NEED to find a constructive way to deal with him. I'm really just so mentally exhausted from this evening, and am in dire need of suggestions. 

Thanks in advance,

Denise

[Just1More]

Originally Posted by ~Denise~ 

 So I asked DS if he knew why I kept leaving the room, and why I held his arms and legs on the bed, and explained that it was because that was the only way I could get him to stop HITTING me. That I don't like being hit, and that it hurts, and that those were the only ways I could think of to protect myself from all the HITTING. He was really silent after that, just looked really thoughful for a couple of minutes. Then he reached out his arms and asked if he could eat his pea pods in my lap, and then he cuddled in my lap, told me he loved me, and promptly fell asleep. 

Right there.  You need to do a whole lot more of this.  Raw honesty.  Talk about what people expect of other people.  Help him to see reasonableness when he isn't cranky, and it will bleed over to when he is.
 

[scottishmommy]

I have no advice, but I don't think you should feel bad at all for leaving the room to protect yourself. If he weren't hurting you and just needed to freak out, I would say stay and be there for him. I think by leaving the room you are teaching him that you have a choice as to whether or not you accept verbal and physical abuse from another human being (I know that you aren't being "abused" by a four year old, but I can't think of another word right now) He will remember that throughout his life. I think it's great for kids to know that the best thing to do is leave when someone is hurting them. Honestly, I would have to do the same thing as well.

[D_McG]

In this house children who are screaming, hitting etc are put in their rooms until they stop. If I have to hold their door closed, I do. I don't leave the room because I'm the mommy - I'm in control and can be in whatever room I want. They are out of control and need to be put somewhere until they regain control.

Now when they are tired, hungry etc I am happy to help them calm down of course. But when they get like that they don't want my help which is why they have to be alone. Trying to help them makes them worse. My son especially REALLY needs things to be black and white. There is one course of action when he is out of control. There is no confusion, no negotiation, nothing. We talk AFTER the tantrum, of course.

Also I really, really don't take them out at night (maybe 2x/year?). It's just not fair to them. I think you should find a good sitter for bedtime if you can't be there. It's just so awful for my kids (and all of us) when they're tired and I feel like I can't even give any consequences for their behavior because it's my fault.

[Emerging butterfly]

My eldest son (now 21) would loose it in the way you describe. I remember him once screaming that he was going to kill his father when he was sleeping during a screaming fit. He was 5 at the time and it was time for bed. We are not a violent family. In any case...I've had a kid like that. SO, what I began to do was realize that he was out of control. Completely. And in part, being that out of control was almost like a black out of rage. He had LOST control, even of himself. When he started getting violent and verbally abusive (had been that way since about 2) we began a non violent technique that we came up with out of desperation. Instead of giving him the power to "chase us away" or allowing him to feel sorry for him self banished to a corner or his room where he could rage on about how unfair we were...we started HOLDING him. Now, this isn't an easy thing to do with a fireball...let me assure you. But, this is how it went: He would begin his tyranny, and one of us would scoop him into our arms FIRMLY, sit on the floor with him in our lap, HOLDING him in such a way that he could NOT hit us while he tried to violently get away like a wild animal, which in many ways, he was. We would speak in a calm voice "You have lost control. I am here to help you find your self control. I will be holding you close to me until you calm down. You will not be able to move out of my lap until you have stopped hitting and insulting. You will be able to move about freely as soon as you are calm. I can not allow you to hit and scream insults. You can stay in my arms as long as you need to to gain control and can act calmly again. We can discuss what you are upset about as soon as you are calm again."...etc...etc....all done in a CALM voice, with immense strength as we held a VERY wily and strong and DETERMINED 4 year old. I remember, even when he was 9...he tried to wail into my pregnant belly. I had to PIN him to the ground as I could not HOLD him, and I just sat over him, pinning him...repeating the calming technique.

Now, this may all sound really horrible to some people. But until you have had a child like this...don't judge. For us, it had NOTHING to do with poor parenting. He wasn't like this because of something wrong with our parenting. He was diagnosed, finally, after YEARS of tears and worry and frustration, with rapid cycling childhood onset bipolar disorder at the age of 17...AFTER he sustained a traumatic brain injury in a manic cycle. 17 years of total chaos. No help. No understanding. Until we got the diagnosis...and ALL the lights went on. All the years of suffering finally made sense. So sad. I'm not saying your child is bi-polar at ALL...I'm just saying that I've had a difficult child whose temper was HUGE. It's really hard mama...and I understand.

For the record, the technique was effective in that he WOULD calm down. sometimes it would take an hour. But...he would eventually calm down, if for no other reason than the boredom of being held so tightly.

He remembers all of this, and when asked at 21 years old, when NOT manic and in his right frame of mind, will tell me that he was, even at the time, so grateful that he could count on us to HOLD him when that horrid rage would over take him. He felt so afraid and out of control...and the anger was terrible. Holding him, even while he flailed and screamed, helped him to know we loved him, even when he was being so unlovable. When he's manic...even now...He will tell us we are controlling and that he feels unsupported. How I wish I could hold him down now...make him calm...help him to see he's not alone. I think he wishes we could too.

But we can't anymore. Now...it's up to him to take responsibility. It's up to him....

[insidevoice]

Originally Posted by Emerging butterfly 

My eldest son (now 21) would loose it in the way you describe. I remember him once screaming that he was going to kill his father when he was sleeping during a screaming fit. He was 5 at the time and it was time for bed. We are not a violent family. In any case...I've had a kid like that. SO, what I began to do was realize that he was out of control. Completely. And in part, being that out of control was almost like a black out of rage. He had LOST control, even of himself. When he started getting violent and verbally abusive (had been that way since about 2) we began a non violent technique that we came up with out of desperation. Instead of giving him the power to "chase us away" or allowing him to feel sorry for him self banished to a corner or his room where he could rage on about how unfair we were...we started HOLDING him. Now, this isn't an easy thing to do with a fireball...let me assure you. But, this is how it went: He would begin his tyranny, and one of us would scoop him into our arms FIRMLY, sit on the floor with him in our lap, HOLDING him in such a way that he could NOT hit us while he tried to violently get away like a wild animal, which in many ways, he was. We would speak in a calm voice "You have lost control. I am here to help you find your self control. I will be holding you close to me until you calm down. You will not be able to move out of my lap until you have stopped hitting and insulting. You will be able to move about freely as soon as you are calm. I can not allow you to hit and scream insults. You can stay in my arms as long as you need to to gain control and can act calmly again. We can discuss what you are upset about as soon as you are calm again."...etc...etc....all done in a CALM voice, with immense strength as we held a VERY wily and strong and DETERMINED 4 year old. I remember, even when he was 9...he tried to wail into my pregnant belly. I had to PIN him to the ground as I could not HOLD him, and I just sat over him, pinning him...repeating the calming technique.

Now, this may all sound really horrible to some people. But until you have had a child like this...don't judge. For us, it had NOTHING to do with poor parenting. He wasn't like this because of something wrong with our parenting. He was diagnosed, finally, after YEARS of tears and worry and frustration, with rapid cycling childhood onset bipolar disorder at the age of 17...AFTER he sustained a traumatic brain injury in a manic cycle. 17 years of total chaos. No help. No understanding. Until we got the diagnosis...and ALL the lights went on. All the years of suffering finally made sense. So sad. I'm not saying your child is bi-polar at ALL...I'm just saying that I've had a difficult child whose temper was HUGE. It's really hard mama...and I understand.

For the record, the technique was effective in that he WOULD calm down. sometimes it would take an hour. But...he would eventually calm down, if for no other reason than the boredom of being held so tightly.

He remembers all of this, and when asked at 21 years old, when NOT manic and in his right frame of mind, will tell me that he was, even at the time, so grateful that he could count on us to HOLD him when that horrid rage would over take him. He felt so afraid and out of control...and the anger was terrible. Holding him, even while he flailed and screamed, helped him to know we loved him, even when he was being so unlovable. When he's manic...even now...He will tell us we are controlling and that he feels unsupported. How I wish I could hold him down now...make him calm...help him to see he's not alone. I think he wishes we could too.

But we can't anymore. Now...it's up to him to take responsibility. It's up to him....

 

This resonates with me-

I was a "good kid" most of the time, but when I lost it- I totally lost it.  I still remember my mother having to sit on the floor with me holding me in a way I could not hurt myself or anyone else.  There are effective holds for this, and no matter how strong the 4 year old is, they will not be able to get away.  Cross your legs over theirs, and cross their arms over their body using them to hold them secure so they can't escape or hurt anyone. They may yell and scream, and you will just have to ride that out. 

FWIW, because my mother forced me to become calm physically at that point, as I got older I was better able to do it for myself.  Still, it was never truly 'easy' for me not to remain calm until I was older and had been diagnosed with bipolar disorder, and had learned better how to support myself through that and level out the highs and lows.  Even in my early 20s I made some terrible choices because I wasn't yet able to reign in my impulses.  It's pretty textbook for kids who may be struggling with something like this to be very explosive when they are young.  

Certainly, no one can diagnose your child, but it is something to have your eyes open to.  Violent rage in a child who hasn't witnessed it isn't a normal reaction, and there is usually something bigger going on.

The upside- because I had the support I needed when I was young, and was able to get support to learn how to deal with the differences in my brain chemistry- I'm a very stable adult who does not currently need meds to maintain that even keel.  Our brains learn from each outburst like that- and the longer they continue without someone helping to control the child and shape behavior (restraining them from causing harm) the deeper that brain training is so that the pathway used when they are frustrated is learned as violence- it's harder to retrain that later. 

[mom2grrls]

I know I need to think prevention--get the kid to bed sooner, somehow arrange my life so I never have to bring my kid to late evening meetings while my husband is at work, etc. But the unfortunate fact is that sometimes in life I will end up with a mad kid--maybe tired, maybe sick, maybe irritable for some other reason--and I NEED to find a constructive way to deal with him. I'm really just so mentally exhausted from this evening, and am in dire need of suggestions. >>>>>

My son does not like to be left alone when angry like that either.  He will say "get back here" if i'm removing myself to get a break.  For prevention I work on more one on one time just to play with him however he likes or a snuggle on the couch or something that's special for him.  If you suspect he is overtired could you have a sitter for late night meetings if they happen regularly?

[~Denise~]

I might try the idea of holding him in a sitting positon right there on the floor, rather than taking him into the bedroom. (Downside is I can't cover my ears, and the screaming and name calling just gets to me! )  But staying in the same location is sometimes helpful with this particular kid; he has some uniquely strong opinions about location. For example, if he got mad as we were leaving daycare, he wants me to turn around and go back there. If he got mad in the kitchen, he wants to confront me about it in the kitchen, not in another room. It's like he needs to return to the "scene of the crime" (the location in which I had the audacity to tell him "no" or did some other allegedly mean thing). Obviously not always a feasible option, but worth considering. 

But I also appreciate the support for the idea that it is okay to separate myself from him when I feel overloaded. The trick is HOW. We don't have locks on our doors and I would feel really uncomfortable locking him in a room--that just seems mean and scary. I don't know if holding the doorknob from the other side is just as bad--I think it just makes him madder, and it certainly doesn't give me a chance to separate myself from the vitriol. So I'm not even sure how to create that space. Tricking him into thinking I had gone into the living room but hiding out in the bathroom seemed like such a brilliant solution until I realized he was completely freaked out thinking I had abandoned him, so I'm never doing that again. 

Before last night it had been a while since we really talked about my methods for dealing with hitting or tantrums. When he was around 2 (and more likely to hit when angry just by virtue of his age), I would tell him that hitting hurts, and that anytime anyone hits another person the victim has two main choices: Fight--i.e. hit the person back, or Flight--i.e. get away so the other person can't hurt you. Natural responses. Kids at preschool will make the same decision--fight you back, or run away and refuse to play with you. I'd tell him that l choose not to hit him because I think hitting is mean and also I don't want to hurt him, and that I was instead choosing to get away so that he couldn't hurt me. Stuff along those lines. But I think I graduallly was explaining my responses to his behavior less and less over time.

We discussed the event again this morning briefly. (He was in a great mood, very huggy and kissy, which made it easier.) Mostly I emphasized that I love him very much, even when he is really mad and hitting, but that if he hits me I need to either get away so he can't hurt me, or hold him so he can't hurt me. I asked him if he prefers I hold him so he can't hit me, or be in a different room, or if he had another idea. After he thought about it he said he thought I should stay in the same room and say sorry. Wasn't really sure how to respond to that, since it's not my role to let him have whatever he wants, so I don't think I need to apologize for saying "no" to certain demands. If I am being unreasonable, sure, I need to reflect on that, but I don't think I need to apologize for setting reasonable limits.

I think last night he legitimately thought I was bait-and-switching him so we probably need to discuss that at some point. I had told him the night before that he could have another ice cream cone the NEXT night (not two in one night). But our expectation is always that dessert follows dinner, and that since he had eaten less than half of his lunch and hadn't eaten much protein the last few days, I wanted him to at least finish what was in his lunchbox before he could have dessert. Instead, when we got home he asked for ice cream but I noticed he was holding his crotch, so I said it looked like he needed to go potty first. Apparently this left him under the impression that he could have ice cream after he pottied. I explained that he needed to eat dinner first, like always, since that is the rule in our house, and that he could eat either the eggs or the beans in his lunchbox for dinner. He wanted cereal instead, and I told him that he needed to eat some protein, because he'd been filling up on cereal lately. "What's protein?" launched into examples of foods with protein, with quesadillas mentioned as one of several examples, and apparently he interpreted my examples as a menu of choices for that evening's meal. So I see why he felt tricked, but once he was in full tantrum mode I wasn't going to be able to explain anything anyway. Ugh. 

....and tonight there is one MORE meeting I REALLY want to get to! It's been a hectic week for meetings--this is not the norm at all! There are going to be some enormous budget cuts to our school district, and as it is we're trying to help our troubled neighborhood school succeed so that kids can actually start to get a reasonable education there and parents won't need to resort to private schools or charter school lotteries. But my husband has to write an exam so I will be watching DS. We do need to start interviewing to find a new babysitter, but haven't started that process yet for various reasons. I do always bring food and activities for him when I have an evening meeting, but I'll just need to make a real effort to leave early I guess. Frustrating because it's generally AFTER meetings like this that you get a chance to network with other people in the community. 

[sweetpeppers]

I don't really have any good suggestions as to what to do with him. I tend to put my son out of the room, and I will hold the door closed if he tries to come right back in. He usually collapses on the floor screaming and crying for a minute or two (as soon as he lets go of the doorknob, I let go of the door), and then calms down and comes back into the room.

I've tried the holding thing, and it just makes him FURIOUS. But this is a different situation than the bipolar kid the previous poster talked about. My son is just mad, he's not going crazy (that sounds harsh, but I don't mean it that way).

I'm not really happy with putting him out of the room, but at least now I can say, don't hit me again or I'm putting you out of the room. No one should have to put up with someone hitting them. I try to stay totally calm and not take it personally. I don't punish him or lecture him, but I'm not interested in being pummeled because he's mad at me.

[D_McG]

Originally Posted by sweetpeppers 

I've tried the holding thing, and it just makes him FURIOUS. But this is a different situation than the bipolar kid the previous poster talked about. My son is just mad, he's not going crazy (that sounds harsh, but I don't mean it that way).

I'm not really happy with putting him out of the room, but at least now I can say, don't hit me again or I'm putting you out of the room. No one should have to put up with someone hitting them. I try to stay totally calm and not take it personally. I don't punish him or lecture him, but I'm not interested in being pummeled because he's mad at me.

yes. and OMG I can think of nothing more infuriating than the idea of being held when I'm furious. I would FLIP OUT. And so would my son!

I've even asked my son when he's calm how he wants me to handle it. He says he needs his room. That he needs to 'relax a little bit'.

[chaimom]

Originally Posted by D_McG 

Originally Posted by sweetpeppers 

I've tried the holding thing, and it just makes him FURIOUS. But this is a different situation than the bipolar kid the previous poster talked about. My son is just mad, he's not going crazy (that sounds harsh, but I don't mean it that way).

I'm not really happy with putting him out of the room, but at least now I can say, don't hit me again or I'm putting you out of the room. No one should have to put up with someone hitting them. I try to stay totally calm and not take it personally. I don't punish him or lecture him, but I'm not interested in being pummeled because he's mad at me.

yes. and OMG I can think of nothing more infuriating than the idea of being held when I'm furious. I would FLIP OUT. And so would my son!

I've even asked my son when he's calm how he wants me to handle it. He says he needs his room. That he needs to 'relax a little bit'.
 

I absolutely agree that holding would be infuriating to a child. FWIW, I think a kid is entitled to his emotions.  If he wants to yell and flail, that's his choice.  Your choice is whether you listen to it or not.   My children always go to their room if they're acting out like that-- yelling hurts my ears. And they're free to come out when they're calm.  There would be no question in my mind (or his) that he would go to his room for hitting.   You don't need to apologize to anyone for putting him in his room for that.  Hitting is not allowed. I love that you were able to talk about his tantrum calmly afterwards.  I think you should also talk about the conseequences calmly.  "You're a kid with big emotions and that's one of things I love about you.  And I think that's OK.  But being mean is not OK. If you don't talk nicely to me, I can't listen to you and I may send you to your room to think about a better way to talk to me. And hitting is never allowed.  You will always go to your room if you do that.  If you want to, you can yell in your room and hit your pillows and when you're ready to talk I'm always here to talk to you.  Understand?  Can you tell my why hitting is wrong?  Do you think you will ever get your way by hitting?"  When I used to ask my kids if they thought they'd ever get their way by whining it would usually crack us both up-- because even they knew I would never cave after they were misbehaving.  

[MsFortune]

I don't get how a forced restraint of hold the kid down is better than a time out.  What is wrong with time out?  Time out is not necessarily punitive - it gives you and the kid both a chance to cool down.

I'd hold the doorknob or install a lock if needed.  You should not have to run to flee an out of control child.  

[D_McG]

Originally Posted by MsFortune 

I don't get how a forced restraint of hold the kid down is better than a time out.

I'm sore of confused by this, too. Maybe it's just my kid?  It seems to OTT to me.

[beebalmmama]

We would hold ds when he was three to try to help him calm down. When he turned 4 the &%$# hit the fan! Between moving and a new baby the year of 4yrs was the worst! We started reading parenting and discipline books. Everything we had always done for tantrums or discipline were NOT working. Ds was like the OP's in that he would follow you and keep yelling at you and hitting you. I also had a newborn babe to protect from his fists and out of control behavior. (I'm sure if you searched my name under GD you'd find my posts. You're not alone!).

I read a few of Mary Sheedy Kurcinka's books and there were parts of them that really helped dh and I. She talks a lot about personalities (parents and kids). We knew ds was an introvert but she went into detail about some things I hadn't thought about. We realized that we were "getting into his personal space" whether we were trying to hold him (comfort), restrain him and carrying him to his room. We really struggled with wanting him to leave the room and force him to his room. But he was not going there on his own. We eventually left the room and refused to be around him when he was trying to hit us. This was also after trying to restrain him and getting bitten, hit, etc which then only led to me exploding too. Obviously not all kids are like this and some kids may need you to be with them. Ds doesn't want to be left alone when he's out of control but he certainly doesn't want you touching him.

Also talking about the episode AFTER the fact is really good. Trying to talk sense during the tantrum is futile, they really are out of control even of themselves. We tried talking to ds about what he thought he could do to help calm himself down, to not get mad in the first place. We tried to give him some power in the situation by coming up with solutions. He never really gave any ideas but I think the discussions were still helpful. These were from suggestions that I found on here MDC, referenced to a discipline book/technique that I can't remember the name of the author.