In-Law Issues--Really long

[mommytimes2]

Wow, this could end up being really long.. My DH and I have been together for almost 15 years and married for 6 years. His extended family has been a source of conflict almost since our first date (when he took me to meet EVERYONE at his brother's rock band concert here in our town). Yes, I met his entire family on our first date--this should have been a red flag. Furthermore, they barely even talked to or acknowledged me and I felt quite uncomfortable around them (usually I get along with most everyone). They just weren't interested.

At our wedding, his father didn't even mention me in his wedding speech, just droned on and on about how wonderful his son is. Honestly, no one really exists for DH's parents except their three children (who are perfect--their words). They truthfully have no friends and rely on the kids to meet their needs for socializing. Lots of subtle pressure there, and guilt on the part of DH in particular. He has always felt responsible for them and sees nothing wrong with the relationship.

Things really took a turn for the worse when I got pregnant with my first DD and started questioning the mainstream way of birthing, etc. I got a lot of negative, undermining comments from MIL. She was unhappy about not being able to see her grandchild being born. I knew if she were there it would have been all about her. Also, I wanted some privacy. She is the sort to smile to your face and then gossip hurtfully about you behind your back. And since she honestly doesn't have a single friend, she talks to other family members, which has hurt my relationships with them. I know I make different choices than she made with her children, but these are my choices to make and it hurts that she can't be respectful and that she needs to malign others in the family against me for being different.

To further complicate things, my FIL has a rather severe case of oral herpes. He refers to them as cold sores, and I wasn't convinced that he knew they were a communicable disease that can be particularly damaging to a newborn. I asked DH to have that difficult conversation with him about kissing the baby when he had a sore, etc. Everything seemed ok. Well, turns out he has been steaming about it for the past three years and disliking me ever since. When our second child was born both MIL and FIL came to visit and my husband asked them to wash their hands and FIL was acting really odd, not talking, not congratulating, nothing. He walked out as soon as he could and my husband and I were left wondering what was the matter. Well, the cold sore conversation (my DH was extremely gentle with him here) and asking him to wash his hands was apparently too much for him to handle and he blames me for all of it. Nevermind it came from DH, he knows DH would never ask anything of him and so I must be the source. He is right in that DH really has trouble with talking to either of them for fear of offending them. Asking people not to come over if they are sick is a really really big deal, for example.

The end result is that I don't want to interact with these people much and DH cannot understand why. My DH puts a lot of pressure on me to visit them for the children's sake and he has this unrealistic vision of us all hanging out and having a good time. Meanwhile, FIL won't even speak to me for the past year (since the handwashing episode) and MIL makes snarky and undermining comments about almost everything that I do (not circumcizing, not vaccinating, delaying solids, disagreeing with DH about something, you name it and she has an opinion about it). Part of the problem is that her undermining is so subtle and delivered with the biggest smile you can imagine that it is difficult to put your finger on, but feels hurtful and malicious nonetheless (as you can imagine, this indirect, passive agressive behavior makes her much easier for DH to defend).

I feel that I have gone out of my way to "fit in" with the family and I am extremely sensitive in trying not to offend them in anyway. Most of the time when we visit them I just sit there and don't voice my opinions on much anymore.

I guess I am at the point where I don't feel like I should have to be in that situation anymore. It is not going to improve. DH is still in denial about things and it has strained our marriage to the point of a likely divorce. I just feel very betrayed as he has defended their bad behavior for years and turned it back on me, blaming me for "hating" his family. He is finally starting to see some of the toxic behavior, but honestly my trust in him is so broken, I just don't know.

Sorry this is so long!!! Thanks for listening to all of that. I guess my question is: moving forward, is it reasonable of me to want to limit my face time with them in order to avoid the mental anguish they consistently cause when we get together? I want my kids to have a relationship with their grandparents as long as they are not being abused emotionally. DH continues to push the agenda of getting together more often because he thinks we just need to "have a good talk." I know these people and I know this is not a communication issue. And yes, DH and I have gone to at least 5 couples conselors over the years with no lasting improvements. Anyone BTDT and have some insight for me? I really appreciate it.

[yarngoddess]

I'm so sorry you have to deal with this. My DH's family is similar- but he sees through them like glass. I think you should limit time with them- or insist that you ALL get counseling TOGETHER. Not that that would change things- but you never know.  Follow your gut. Hang in there- wish I had better advice for you, but i don't.

[mommytimes2]

Thanks yarngoddess, it has been devastating on my marriage, to say the least. In fact, I don't even consider the in-laws the problem anymore. I see the issue more as my DH has a serious lack of boundaries when it comes to his parents. I keep hoping he will grow beyond the need to be that perfect son for them, but I have my doubts. I recently read the book "Toxic In-Laws" by Susan Forward, which was somewhat helpful...

[sapphire_chan]

Counseling should help in this case.

[Gucci&Granola]

Oh my goodness.  The entire situation sounds terrible.  You say that you have been to numerous counselors with little to show for results.  I know it can be a drag shopping around (the meeting, getting to know them, laying out the issues only to find that it's not a good fit) but finding the right therapist really sounds like it's going to be your best bet.  Can you ask for a recommendation from other families or couples in your area?  Maybe post something in "Finding you tribe"?  I would recommend against counseling with anyone but your DH.  Having his parents there implies that they have a say in the decision making of your family.  The problem is your DH, not his parents.  Sure his parents sound awful, but their affect on your life is a result of his lack of spine and awareness, not their inconsideration.  Until he realizes just how unhealthy and inappropriate his behavior is the problems are going to continue.  Good luck.

[mommytimes2]

Thanks Gucci&Granola, I agree with you. My husband has been in denial about things for a very long time, and really is still in denial to a large extent. I will go check out the tribal areas and see if I can find a recommendation. I just don't see much hope if he is going to continue to push the old agenda of we need to be best of friends and get together all the time. At this point, I am no longer willing to do that. He has trouble compromising on things, so my solution of getting together for kids b-days and major holidays will probably not be enough for him. Hopefully, OUR family will mean enough to him to make some changes and show some concern for more than just what he wants (which is always in line with what THEY want, by the way). I appreciate the advice!! 
 

Originally Posted by Gucci&Granola 

Oh my goodness.  The entire situation sounds terrible.  You say that you have been to numerous counselors with little to show for results.  I know it can be a drag shopping around (the meeting, getting to know them, laying out the issues only to find that it's not a good fit) but finding the right therapist really sounds like it's going to be your best bet.  Can you ask for a recommendation from other families or couples in your area?  Maybe post something in "Finding you tribe"?  I would recommend against counseling with anyone but your DH.  Having his parents there implies that they have a say in the decision making of your family.  The problem is your DH, not his parents.  Sure his parents sound awful, but their affect on your life is a result of his lack of spine and awareness, not their inconsideration.  Until he realizes just how unhealthy and inappropriate his behavior is the problems are going to continue.  Good luck.

[mattemma04]

I think you and dh should try more  counseling.Dh also needs to read up on toxic relationships.It hurts to hear your family is toxic.The mother has no firends outside of family,so this must show him sometihng.

 You will have to come to some middle ground,and holidays/birthdays sounds like a start.I love my family,but would not want to be with them EVERY WEEKEEND.Divorce will be so much worse as far as the kids go.The inlaws will dictate more  and help your ex see the errors of your ways. Need to work WITH dh before you get to that point,so he can see what they are doing.

He needs to accept that his birth family wasn't all that great,but he can have that with the family he created with you.He can have it  with you,or he can ruin it and keep living a dream with his parents.

The herpes thing was a good call by you. Kissing babies IS a common way kids get herpes.Cold sores are herpes simplex 1 and it can be transmitted to genitals too. Good that you could stop it,but the risk is always there if the in-laws kiss your kids.It is sad that FIL/MIL would rather give the grandkids this virus than admit they have it.Lots of people have it.Not a big deal,but you should not knowingly pass it to children.Washing hands is the first line of defense and the kids and I do it the moment we step into the home.FIL should be happy to prevent the spread of disease,and should be mad at himself for not doing it until he was asked too.It should be the norm like putting on a seatbelt.

Best wishes for you!!!!

[mommytimes2]

Thanks for the support mattemma04! You make some really good points.This has always been a fear of mine (yes, I have been thinking of divorcing him for the past 4 years) that DH's parents will have an even bigger say in how we run our family if DH and I aren't together anymore, just because they have such sway over him. So, it does seem that a divorce for that purpose wouldn't solve anything--thanks for making that point again. It is really helping me to talk this out here and get some objectivity. I have been avoiding talking to friends and family for fear of "poisoning the water" which has happened already as DH has talked to people we both know about our marital issues. He has a friend who confides in him about marital issues, so he feels obligated to return the favor. Arrg.  I am hoping if we can figure this out, some of the old feeling I used to have for him will return. I have such anger toward him.  I think DH and I are going to try counseling again.

[APToddlerMama]

Wow, OP.  You are in a tough situation.  I don't think I really have anything to add that is going to be helpful but I've been there so I will try.  The first thing I was thinking was "therapy."  But obviously you have tried that.  The second thing I was thinking was your DH needs to work on boundaries, but then you addressed that in your next post.  Anyhow, I have been exactly where you are.  The absolute most straining, draining thing to my marriage was my in-laws, and more specifically, my husband's lack of understanding that he needed to set boundaries with them and that it was *okay* and normal to do so. 

Personally, I don't think divorce is going to make things easier for you.  If you are divorced, your in-laws will have that much more control over the situation.  Imagine what could go on if you aren't there to "enforce" the rules like herpes grandpa can't kiss your baby.  I was lucky in that DH and I found a really good therapist who made a few points to my DH that really stuck (well, it was actually an ongoing process and took over a year for these concepts to really work their way into his psyche, but we only did therapy for a few months).  The first point was that he told DH very clearly "Your responsibility is to the family that you have created, *not* the family in which you have come from."  He repeated that again and again and again.  Also, therapist felt that the "rules" should come from DH so as to not entangle me into a bigger family feud.  (FWIW, our rules included things like grandma and grandpa could no longer come and stay at our house every weekend, and we asked that they wait for an invite.  Also, asked that they no longer challenge our parenting decisions, etc.).  DH didn't want to do this, and sometimes would, sometimes wouldn't.  Finally, I told him that if he wasn't going to set the boundaries, I would.  He desperately didn't want me engaging them in any sort of boundary setting, so he started to do it more himself.  Any time a boundary had been crossed and he didn't deal with it promptly, I gave him a short amount of time to do so and told him if not, I was going to.  Incidentally, kissing my kid with herpes was one of my problems and one of our huge issues...I actually started a thread about it a while back. 

In the end, even with therapy, it took a lot of me repeating to DH that boundaries are healthy and necessary and what he was letting his family do was unhealthy, damaging our relationship, stressing our family, and *he* was the one who could change that.  I couldn't.  He had to change his way of interacting with them.  He ended up writing them a letter which was nice, but firm, and it was essentially an ultimatum to them:  Do these things, don't do those things, and we will continue our relationship.  Fail to respect our boundaries, and we won't be seeing/talking to you until you do.  He did it.  He hemmed and hawed the whole time and they didn't talk for six months.  During that time, things got really rocky as he blamed me for "taking away" his family.  Never mind that the letter stated explicitly that they should contact him as soon as they were ready to accept the boundaries (ie. things mentioned above) and be respectful to our family.  It was their *choice* to hold out for those six months not talking to us.  I am sure they were really reallllllllly hoping he would cave and things could continue on.  They sent him emails/left phone calls during that time where they screamed at him, "disowned" him, etc., and he ignored each one until finally one by one they left a message/email that said they were ready to respect us and our choices and our time.  Things have gotten a ton better with them since.  I think they realize what they have to lose if they go back to how they were.  Things aren't perfect by any means, but there is less overt boundary pushing than before.

I don't know if any of this will help you because of course your DH has to be the one to understand he needs to have boundaries and I don't know exactly how you communicate that with him.  Maybe one more try with a really good therapist?  Seeing that 5 have failed you probably wouldn't have luck but maybe it is worth a shot.  A lot of therapists are just not good at their job and sometimes focus on compromise when it isn't actually appropriate for some situations.  If you do go to one, make sure you really research to find someone who is good.  It sounds really like your DH should be going by himself to work on boundaries.  Did any of them do one-on-one work with your DH?  That also helped my DH a lot.  I wasn't there so I don't know what they talked about, but instead of it being about me, it was about DH and his need to set boundaries which I think is how a lot of things finally clicked for him.  Good luck! 

[mommytimes2]

APToddlerMama--it is really nice to know I am not alone in going through this, although I am sorry you have had to deal with these issue too!! This gives me hope that things maybe can improve with the right kind of help.

[BeckyBird]

Mommytimes2, you are not alone. I went through a similar situation, and I just have to say that it is not easy at all. (In my case, it was my stepsister.)

There is no easy way to deal with your inlaws, and severing ties has a whole different share of equally terrible problems! What does a person do?

[mommytimes2]

BeckyBird, I agree, what to do? In my case, I am thinking that moving farther away from the in-laws might help (we live 30 minutes away right now). DH is obviously very attached and doesn't want to move, but I am thinking it really might help us focus on our marriage...may be extreme, but maybe not...I know we would have less to fight about! lol

[ElliesMomma]

first of all, i'm glad that you see that the problem is your husband, not the in-laws. from the title of your thread, i was afraid that you would need to have that pointed out, but as i read on, it became clear that you know.

how old are your kids? young??

i agree with others that divorcing = giving up control at this point in your children's lives. if you are able to stick it out for another 10 years or so, when your kids are teenagers, they will not be so vulnerable to herpes kisses and the like, and they will already have their own opinions about grandma and grandpa.

how is the state of your marriage otherwise? sex life still decent? fights about money? if those areas are ok, and the inlaws are the only major problem, could you perhaps consider:

1) your husband is not likely to change. perhaps counseling has been unsuccessful b/c he doesn't really see any problem in his family of origin. (after all he thought they ALL should meet you on your first date ... obviously wanted their approval.)

2) so the "problem" is yours to deal with alone. maybe counseling for yourself only? counseling with the goal in mind to find a way to survive in this situation? to hold your own family together in the face of your husband's need to stay attached to his parents? (which is not normal BTW but you already know that!)

3) such therapy for yourself might include a strong component of accepting things the way they are. you don't like it, and you don't have to *like* it at all, but there must be some ways a person in your situation could find to make their peace with it, and develop very mature strategies and coping skills for survival.

to be clear, none of this is your fault in any way. that's NOT why you need therapy; you need therapy b/c any normal rational person would feel as you do in this situation, and it's hard to find a way to hold it together in the face of having a husband who is not fully grown up in many ways.

i hope the above is helpful. best of luck.

[Ramzubo]

Been there, done that, even read the toxic book too. No fun at all. So it all sounds so familiar to me (I think aptoddlermom's post could have been my own). I agree with keep trying the therapy if other aspects of your marriage are good. For Dh the message was a lot less antagonistic coming from a therapist than me. Sometimes if I voiced a concern then it would just sound like I was being bitter and blowing things out of proportion or it devolved into a your family my family thing. We went to therapy for a long time and progress was slow, it still is a touchy area, but he has made a lot of progress and it doesn't have nearly the strain on our marriage as it once did.

Moving may help or it may not or it may make things worse (now we're going to stay even longer since we have to travel to see you). My in-laws live far away most of the year and 2 hrs away the rest of the year and we still had the issues. They don't usually disappear with miles apart.

For my in laws it was hard for them to see that anything was coming from Dh because he is not quick to disagree with them, so I really encouraged him to speak up. Not cause fights or anything but just let them know he's a grown man now and no he's not going to be the same person as the kid you raised. This at least helps to lessen their "well it's all her fault" type comments. Also I really had to explain in a very calm way how their behavior was undermining our marriage. Dh really blew it off a lot and I had to make it very clear that this was a serious problem and was having consequences on our marriage.

So sorry you've got to go through this.

[mommytimes2]

Thanks for the insight ElliesMomma. My kids are young: 4 year old DD and 1 year old DS. I wish I could say that my DH and I have a good relationship otherwise, but we really don't. As a result of everything, we have almost zero emotional connection. I find him to be pretty self-absorbed and immature, which I am not handling well. I probably should get into counseling myself just to get some clarity about things, since I often doubt myself and my perceptions. I just don't want to make a mistake, especially with these kids. But, if I am being honest, I wish I had never married him. I love our children more than anything, but we have a very toxic relationship and rarely agree on anything. I do think we could be good friends again for our childrens' sake, but I do not have those loving feelings for him anymore. I fully recognize that I am still with him for the kids and because we would have difficulty separating financially right now (although, there is probably never a good time to separate). There is a lot more to this story, as you can probably guess...

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElliesMomma 

first of all, i'm glad that you see that the problem is your husband, not the in-laws. from the title of your thread, i was afraid that you would need to have that pointed out, but as i read on, it became clear that you know.

how old are your kids? young??

i agree with others that divorcing = giving up control at this point in your children's lives. if you are able to stick it out for another 10 years or so, when your kids are teenagers, they will not be so vulnerable to herpes kisses and the like, and they will already have their own opinions about grandma and grandpa.

how is the state of your marriage otherwise? sex life still decent? fights about money? if those areas are ok, and the inlaws are the only major problem, could you perhaps consider:

1) your husband is not likely to change. perhaps counseling has been unsuccessful b/c he doesn't really see any problem in his family of origin. (after all he thought they ALL should meet you on your first date ... obviously wanted their approval.)

2) so the "problem" is yours to deal with alone. maybe counseling for yourself only? counseling with the goal in mind to find a way to survive in this situation? to hold your own family together in the face of your husband's need to stay attached to his parents? (which is not normal BTW but you already know that!)

3) such therapy for yourself might include a strong component of accepting things the way they are. you don't like it, and you don't have to *like* it at all, but there must be some ways a person in your situation could find to make their peace with it, and develop very mature strategies and coping skills for survival.

to be clear, none of this is your fault in any way. that's NOT why you need therapy; you need therapy b/c any normal rational person would feel as you do in this situation, and it's hard to find a way to hold it together in the face of having a husband who is not fully grown up in many ways.

i hope the above is helpful. best of luck.

[mommytimes2]

Thanks! Good point about the traveling and staying longer. It's funny, when I first posted this thread, I purposefully tried to avoid getting into our marital issues, but these things don't happen in a vacuum... as I mentioned above, we have a lot of other issues in our marriage that are not helping matters. I sometimes just imagine if this one area could improve, would our marriage wounds heal? Because, after all these years and 5 counselors later, he still doesn't get it. And I don't think he ever will really get it. Can I be happy with that? I guess another way to put it is, can I be happy with someone who is incapable of putting me/my kids first? I already know the answer: no. I really wish there was something I could hold onto, but I recognize what we had is mostly in the past. Not sure what to do, but probably should see a counselor to get perspective on things.

 

Originally Posted by Ramzubo 

Been there, done that, even read the toxic book too. No fun at all. So it all sounds so familiar to me (I think aptoddlermom's post could have been my own). I agree with keep trying the therapy if other aspects of your marriage are good. For Dh the message was a lot less antagonistic coming from a therapist than me. Sometimes if I voiced a concern then it would just sound like I was being bitter and blowing things out of proportion or it devolved into a your family my family thing. We went to therapy for a long time and progress was slow, it still is a touchy area, but he has made a lot of progress and it doesn't have nearly the strain on our marriage as it once did.

Moving may help or it may not or it may make things worse (now we're going to stay even longer since we have to travel to see you). My in-laws live far away most of the year and 2 hrs away the rest of the year and we still had the issues. They don't usually disappear with miles apart.

For my in laws it was hard for them to see that anything was coming from Dh because he is not quick to disagree with them, so I really encouraged him to speak up. Not cause fights or anything but just let them know he's a grown man now and no he's not going to be the same person as the kid you raised. This at least helps to lessen their "well it's all her fault" type comments. Also I really had to explain in a very calm way how their behavior was undermining our marriage. Dh really blew it off a lot and I had to make it very clear that this was a serious problem and was having consequences on our marriage.

So sorry you've got to go through this.