What's your stance on psychological retesting? (LONG)

[ReadingMama]

My son is 11 now.  He's homeschooled and in addition to OCD and SPD, he has dyslexia, dysgraphia, and dyscalculia.  He also has a diagnosis of nonverbal learning disability (which the doctor who diagnosed him believes is at the mild end of the autism spectrum).  Before we jumped off the diagnosis merry-go-round when he was 7, we'd had 2 rounds of in-depth neuropsychoeducational (whew!) testing to determine what was causing his issues at preschool and kindergarten as well as explosive tantrums (he grew out of them by 5.5).

His testing at 5 showed up normal results academically, a 20 point spread between a higher verbal IQ and a lower performance IQ, a slow processing speed, fine motor delay, and he was diagnosed (tentatively) with PDD-NOS, (definite) SPD, and developmental coordination disorder.  It was determined that we'd retest at 7 in order to get a more definitive diagnosis (the doctor was considering nonverbal learning disability instead of PDD-NOS depending on how his academic skills developed).

His testing at 7 showed a 19 point spread on verbal to performance IQ with both scores being 20 points higher than in his testing at age 5.  It was 121 verbal/ 102 non-verbal, but the processing speed was slow again which brought down the full scale IQ down to 108.  The subtests showed problems with visual motor skills, processing speed, and visual processing tasks.  This more in-depth testing revealed a pattern.  He scored the highest on tests that kids on the autism spectrum score lowest on, and lowest on tests that ASD kids tend to score high on.  So PDD-NOS was ruled out and he was diagnosed instead with non-verbal learning disability, the three learning disabilities I mentioned earlier, visual processing delays, and an anxiety disorder NOS.

It's been 4 years since we did any testing.  In that time, his anxiety diagnosis was changed to OCD.  He continues to struggle with math, handwriting, and spelling.  (But does great with reading and the content subjects--history, science, etc.)  His sensory issues are better thanks to two years of occupational therapy.  His fine motor issues/handwriting didn't really improve despite OT. 

I'm considering retesting just to see if how he processes things has changed in the past 4 years.  Although his previous testing showed visual processing issues, he learned to read well by including sight words and he's learning to spell using visual memorization.  I'd like to learn more about how he processes things so I can be a better teacher for him.  BUT.  His new psychologist wants to do achievement testing too (which includes math and writing) and he panics about stuff like that.  His kindergarten year was so stressful (which is why we've been homeschooling since 1st grade) that he developed a school phobia.  And due to his learning issues, he doesn't do a whole grade standardized curriculum for homeschool (i.e. 5th grade level in every subject).  If we don't do standardized schoolwork, what would be the point of achievement testing?  Isn't that testing based on age and an assumption that kids of that age and grade have been exposed to the same material in school? 

I don't want back on the merry-go-round, but I don't know how to get the information I need without testing.

What do you think? 

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by ReadingMama 

His new psychologist wants to do achievement testing too (which includes math and writing) and he panics about stuff like that.  ..... If we don't do standardized schoolwork, what would be the point of achievement testing?  Isn't that testing based on age and an assumption that kids of that age and grade have been exposed to the same material in school? 

 

Why does the dr. want to do achievement testing? How would the test be conducted?

My DD is 14 and her main labels are asperger's and social anxiety disorder. She cannot function in a regular school and had full blown panic attacks about walking in the door. But she loves testing -- all her testing has been done one-on-one with an adult who enjoys working with quirky kids. It's not like tradition school, so the "he hates school" to me doesn't mean the test will be stressful.

(She homeschooled for years and now attends an alternative private school, which she enjoys. )

Testing the skill subjects of math and writing are is very different than testing content subjects like history or science. If all the kids at school studied Egypt but you guys had been studying Native Americans, giving him the test wouldn't make any sense. But if he has been doing some reading and some writing, it really doesn't matter what he was reading or writing, he would have been developing those skills.

To me, it makes sense to find out where those skills are.

[ReadingMama]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Linda on the move 

Why does the dr. want to do achievement testing? How would the test be conducted?

...

Testing the skill subjects of math and writing are is very different than testing content subjects like history or science. If all the kids at school studied Egypt but you guys had been studying Native Americans, giving him the test wouldn't make any sense. But if he has been doing some reading and some writing, it really doesn't matter what he was reading or writing, he would have been developing those skills.

To me, it makes sense to find out where those skills are.

I'm not sure why she wants to do it other than when she asked what grade level he was, I told her middle school level in content subjects, but either 3rd or 4th in math and spelling. 

The testing will just be in her office with just the two of them.  In this case, it wouldn't be the social anxiety of school that would make him upset.  It'd be the difficulty of doing something in his areas of struggle without the "accomodations" I've made for him.  My husband made him write a list in Boy Scouts earlier this week and he cried.  He's embarrassed about it.  So he usually types instead.

In math, he gets concepts, but can't memorize math facts.  We struggled for a few years just to learn the addition facts before I realized that math concepts wasn't a problem--but straight computation is, as is fact memorization.  He's doing grade 4 math now--but this program is only now introducing multiplication.  So he hasn't been presented with multiplication or division yet.  If standardizes tests are based on what kids learn when in school (where everybody gets the same exposure), I don't know that the results would be valid.  It's not like I've taught him 5th grade math and he's struggling (but has had the exposure).  Do you get what I'm saying?

Reading and spelling tests (even though he struggles with spelling) would be fine, but I think he would probably cry if he had to do several math problems by hand or if he had to handwrite anything (rather than type).  We already know he has a math and handwriting learning disability, so that would skew the results I would think.

But this is just my initial thinking on it.  I welcome any opinions/experience about it.

 

[Linda on the move]

Honestly, I would do it. He's 11, and figuring how to get him to a point of being functionally literate, including a little bit of writing, is a concern. If he were younger, may be not. But you need a real plan for the next few years, and some help from learning specialists. Figuring out where he actually is makes a lot of sense to me. The dr. seeing what happens when he has to write makes sense to me. She may be able to help.

I think that as our kids get older, the fact that some thing make then unhappy is less of a concern than it was when they were little.

The math test isn't going to just pop out a grade level, it will show what he knows about different areas of math. Computation will be low, but it may still show his many strengths.

I think it's possible that you could end up knowing more about your child, the dr. having better ideas what might help, and some real information to give another teacher or a tutor.

[FarmerBeth]

Just a thought about the handwriting disability.  Our son also has a handwriting and fine motor skill disability  (and he's also 11) and the testers were pretty good at making sure the handwriting speed didn't skew the results on the other tests like math and reading.  They can either adjust the time needed to complete the task, allow for some topics to be done orally or allow typing.  Just be up front about this particular concern prior to testing.  It sounds like a lot of his embarrassment is about the handwriting and he will need to learn to face up to it at this age.  Performance anxiety (our sons have this in common, too, and we also had a one year period of homeschooling the grade one year due to school based anxiety that spiraled into depression) doesn't go away until you face up to it.Along with seeing a psychiatrist, our DS  spent ten sessions in kid's group therapy for anxiety (with the parents in their own group) that was pretty much focused on exposing themselves to more and more anxiety provoking situations.  One third of the group were boys with school based anxiety about learning issues.  I don't know about everyone, but DS's anxiety is much better, although he has a host of other issues (As yet unofficial Asperger's diagnosis,fine motor disability, sensory issues, OCD, ticks, ADHD, reading finally caught up to grade level).  You need the testing as a useful tool and he needs to face up to his anxiety.  That being said, you might want to remind him that lots of very successful people have terrible handwriting and that colleges and workplaces primarily use typing, anyway.  Literacy is about being capable enough at decoding words to grasp the content and about writing (or typing) with conventional enough spelling and grammar to be understood and to impart your ideas to others; it is not about if you have neat printing or handwriting.  About a third of the family on my father's side have fine motor issues even as adults, and they all also have post secondary education, good jobs, and are happy with their lives; they just tie their shoelaces unconventionally and others can't read their writing.

[ReadingMama]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Linda on the move 

Honestly, I would do it. He's 11, and figuring how to get him to a point of being functionally literate, including a little bit of writing, is a concern. If he were younger, may be not. But you need a real plan for the next few years, and some help from learning specialists. Figuring out where he actually is makes a lot of sense to me. The dr. seeing what happens when he has to write makes sense to me. She may be able to help.

I think that as our kids get older, the fact that some thing make then unhappy is less of a concern than it was when they were little.

The math test isn't going to just pop out a grade level, it will show what he knows about different areas of math. Computation will be low, but it may still show his many strengths.

I think it's possible that you could end up knowing more about your child, the dr. having better ideas what might help, and some real information to give another teacher or a tutor.

Well, we had two years of occupational therapy for handwriting and then used Handwriting without Tears (what the OT used) for a couple years with no real improvement in handwriting.  He *can* write legibly if he writes really small, but it takes forever.  It's mostly in capitals and always in print.  And he has trouble with spacing letters (and numbers) on the page or line and leaving spaces between words.  I think it's just an arduous process for him.  

He didn't learn to spell until he began to type.  The handwriting disability got in the way of spelling.  He couldn't get past trying to remember how a letter is shaped or what direction it faces to even consider how it might be spelled.  He sees a spelling tutor once a week, and she agrees that typing is the way to go.  Because he has fine motor delays and visual processing issues, I even have to accomodate that!   Touch typing (which we tried) relies on the exact skills he struggles with, so it was recommended that I just let him look at the keys in the hope that he'll eventually develop enough familiarity with their general location that he'll learn how to type at a functional speed.   

Difficulties with math and handwriting are hallmarks of nonverbal learning disability (NLD).

I really think the handwriting issue is the hardest one for him to have for practical reasons.  Because writing is a part of people's lives most days.  Most of us use calculators on a regular basis, so it's not obvious that a person has a learning disability in math.  It's harder to "hide" a handwriting disability.  I wish it was as simple as a good handwriting program or occupational therapy, but neither of those things helped.   

I don't even know if there is writing involved in achievement testing.  Perhaps it's nothing to be worried about in the first place.  But wouldn't math require some?  

I can see the benefit if the testing would give in-depth information about specific strengths and weaknesses, rather than just a basic score.  I hadn't thought about that.  So thanks! 

Farmerbeth, thank you for sharing your experience.  It helps to hear from other moms with kids with handwriting problems.  It seems like I've tried everything.  We have a private school here that specializes in teaching kids with LDs and ADHD.  Every student uses a laptop or Alpha Smart there.  They email their work to their teachers!  It's a built-in accomodation.  When I found out about that, it made me feel better about giving up the battle with handwriting.

We have a good therapist that my son really likes.  Maybe she can help prepare him to take the tests. 

And it sounds like I need more information about the testing process from the psychologist who will be doing the testing.

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by ReadingMama 

Touch typing (which we tried) relies on the exact skills he struggles with, so it was recommended that I just let him look at the keys in the hope that he'll eventually develop enough familiarity with their general location that he'll learn how to type at a functional speed.   

..... I wish it was as simple as a good handwriting program or occupational therapy, but neither of those things helped.   

I don't even know if there is writing involved in achievement testing.  Perhaps it's nothing to be worried about in the first place.  But wouldn't math require some?  

...  It seems like I've tried everything.  We have a private school here that specializes in teaching kids with LDs and ADHD.  Every student uses a laptop or Alpha Smart there.  They email their work to their teachers!  It's a built-in accomodation.  When I found out about that, it made me feel better about giving up the battle with handwriting.

My DD has fine motor deficits as well, and they effect both handwriting and typing. She can do both, but painfully slow. (we switched from the word "delays" to "deficits" when she was 13 and the focus became making do with what she's got rather than getting up where her peers are. It's a paradigm switch).

As far as how much writing is involved with testing, if part of what they want to test is his writing, then he's going to have to write.

When the school tested my DD's level in math and reading, it was all computerized and not timed. You could ask specific questions about this. The tests they gave her figured out which questions to ask based on what she got right and wrong, but she only had to read a screen and then press buttons.

When my DD was in public school, accommodations for handwriting were part of her 504. She did far less writing than her peers and had more time to do it. Her private school is a different deal, but they also make accommodations. None the less, she has worked on her handwriting DAILY since starting school. She does FAR more writing since starting school than she did as a homeschooler.

I think that if you are tired of working with your son, it might be wise to find him a situation where a qualified teacher will be working with him on writing every single day. Yes, he'll never be much good at it. Yes, even his typing will be slow. But no, that doesn't mean that staying where he currently is is in his best interest. My DD's writing has improved since we gave up homeschooling and put her in school.

Another thing about writing and math --- being unable to writing semi-neatly ultimately holds kids back in math. My DD is now doing Algebra (with a calculator) and the biggest hang up for her is keeping her problems neat enough that she can keep track of what is going on in them.

[ReadingMama]

UPDATE:

We went ahead with the testing and just received the report.  The strengths and weaknesses are the same as were present at age 7, but his reading level has greatly improved (he didn't read until 8, but now is reading at a 7th grade, 8th month level), and he's still very behind in math, spelling, and handwriting ability.  Unfortunately, the psychologist didn't allow him to spell words orally or type them on the computer.  He had to print them.  Even though I discussed his dysgraphia with her right before the testing (and she had a copy of his previous testing report).  I think it did skew the results of the spelling test. 

Math and handwriting are by far his biggest challenges.  He is further behind than I thought in these subjects.  (I read recently that kids with Nonverbal Learning Disability often don't get beyond a 6th grade level in math.  Yikes!) 

I plan to get an occupational therapy evaluation and hopefully get him some more OT. 

On the one hand I'm glad we did the testing, as it reaffirmed the previous diagnoses (and put to rest my concerns that perhaps some of them were just due to him being young when he was initially diagnosed).  And I found out a lot more about particular processing strengths and weaknesses.

But I'm also more insecure and anxious about things like getting into college, etc. He says he wants to go.  Do colleges have accomodations?  

Edited by ReadingMama - 6/10/11 at 10:25pm

[ReadingMama]

Bumping because I updated by editing my last post rather than posting a new one! 

[melissa17s]

Originally Posted by ReadingMama 

But I'm also more insecure and anxious about things like getting into college, etc. He says he wants to go.  Do colleges have accomodations?  

Yes! Colleges offer accommodations to students with needs- especially when they have been documented. I have had students with longer testing times, assistance with note taking, testing outside the classroom, etc.  I work at a community college, and we accept all students, so our range of abilities is diverse.  Students may have specific requirements to get into other private and state universities, and it is good to contact the school well in advance to  make sure your ds is meeting their requirements before applying.

[ReadingMama]

Thank you so much for writing this.  It made me teary!   I didn't know community colleges accept everyone.  I was already thinking that community college is a good choice financially.  In my state, the first year of tuition at a community college is free for all high school graduates.  Of course, books are another matter....  :) 
 

Thank you again.  You made my night!

Originally Posted by melissa17s 

Yes! Colleges offer accommodations to students with needs- especially when they have been documented. I have had students with longer testing times, assistance with note taking, testing outside the classroom, etc.  I work at a community college, and we accept all students, so our range of abilities is diverse.  Students may have specific requirements to get into other private and state universities, and it is good to contact the school well in advance to  make sure your ds is meeting their requirements before applying.