New here and looking for feedback!

[Cherkay]

I would love to get feedback from other parents that have had children that were gifted in math before entering kindergarten.  My son is four (almost 5) and can already multiply, do two digit addition with regrouping, count forward and backward beyond 100, count money, etc.  I’m a teacher and know that a lot of his math skills are already at a 2^nd and 3^rd grade level.  I was wondering if any of you have experienced this and what your experience was once your child went to kindergarten.  I am very worried about how kindergarten will go with his math skills being this advanced.  He’s completely obsessed with everything math and number related which is very concerning to me, also.  He is doing well in preschool since it is a center based program that allows him to choose his activities each day.  He is allowed to choose the activities he wants which are always computer, block, and math manipulative related.  I am so worried kindergarten will be a nightmare once he is forced to sit down and do things he does not enjoy or aren’t challenging for him.  I would love to hear if any of you have had a similar situation and what happened once your child entered public school.  I am hoping he will test into the G/T program and that will help the situation but the G/T program is very hard to qualify for in our district.  His reading skills are also high but I know to qualify requires many factors to line up.  Thanks in advance for your feedback.  I want to be proactive before he enters school so any advice you can give me will be very helpful. 

[spedteacher30]

he sounds like my son in terms of math skills.We're about to enter kindergarten too. The one thing I do know is that my son probably wouldn't excel at a math placement test because we've never taught him the conventions of pencil and paper math. i am not sure he could answer a sheet of sums--even simple ones--because we've never given him a math worksheet, KWIM? I am planning to do some of that this summer, I think, just to let his cognitive math skills math up to his school math skills.

Unfortunately, I think most elementary schools are ready to differentiate in reading, but are much less likely to be set up to differentiate in math. We are planning to make an appointment with the principal and the gifted specialist (we have psych testing that shows he would qualify already done) and see where we go from there...

our school's simple answer is to send kids to the next grade level for math or reading, but I am not sure that my son's writing skills are ready for that, and I am pretty sure his "school" skills (sitting, paying attention, listening, frustration tolerance, etc) are not ready for it!

[spedteacher30]

Oh, and I meant to ask why you are concerned about his math obsession. I know why we were concerned about DS's obsession with numbers, and I know why we are no longer concerned about it but I don't know if your reasons are the same as ours.

[Cherkay]

Sounds like we are in the same boat!  My son doesn't have the writing skills to actually put his work on paper but can do it all day long in his head or tell me what to write.  I don't like the idea of skipping a grade because I feel like socially he needs to stay with children his same age.  He's already entering school as a young five year old and even though he is very mature I think eventually being younger is going to start making a difference socially. 

I am just so anxious about how he will do next year.  What age level do you teach in special education?  I teach elementary resource.  I have to admit that I've considered Aspergers with his math being so high but I just don't see enough of the signs to think that is probably what we are dealing with.  He is obsessive about it but I think it is just because he likes math so much.  Was that your concern? 

Did you have the psych evaluation done privately?  I have considered doing that but I know my insurance won't cover it and I figure it will cost an arm and a leg. 

[spedteacher30]

I'm no longer a special ed teacher--but when I was, I taught 7th and 8th grade resource. Now, I work for our state teacher's union as our policy analyst.

We thought Asperger's too, but as my mom pointed out (and she is still a special ed teacher, working with kids from birth to 21 at our local children's medical center) DS's love of numbers is really grounded in social interactions. His best friend at daycare/preschool is just as math obsessed--though, not as advanced--and the two of them apparently spend snack time and outside time "playing" math: asking each other questions, counting the number of laps around the playground they can do, coming up with math riddles (i.e. "when does 1+1=3? when you have one goat and 1 rhinoceros, you have THREE horns.") and other things like that.

I'm constantly giggling at the reference to the Breakfast Club that seems apropos here, when Anthony Michael Hall says he is in the physics club and the math club, and Molly Ringwald says the math club is different from other kinds of clubs, and then Judd Nelson asks what they do in the physics club and concludes with, "so, they are social. Pathetic and sad, but social."

We had him tested last fall by a clinical psych (maybe school psych?) graduate student for her assessment course. the results weren't a surprise to us, but it is nice to have them in our back pockets, KWIM? it didn't change anything about what we assumed we knew.

[TiredX2]

Originally Posted by spedteacher30 

Unfortunately, I think most elementary schools are ready to differentiate in reading, but are much less likely to be set up to differentiate in math. We are planning to make an appointment with the principal and the gifted specialist (we have psych testing that shows he would qualify already done) and see where we go from there...

ITA with this and it has been a major issue for us. Honestly, at this point I've just given up :(

Reading is easy to differentiate--- you just assign different books.  Writing the same--- expectations are different.  Math several years ahead, though, seems to not be dealt with *at all.*  Unfortunately for DS, he is only a couple years ahead in math (at this point, grrrr) instead of years and years.  If he was at a high school level (in 3rd grade) they would deal with it.  Him being only 6-7th grade level means that he fits in well enough and they do no differentation.  With DD (who was not quite as far ahead) we just had her do extracurricular math club and now she's only in Algebra in 7th grade.  Not ideal, but okay.

Good luck!

[Cherkay]

I like how you said his math is rooted in social interaction.  That is the very reason why even though I haven’t completely ruled out the possibility of Aspergers my gut tells me it isn’t that.  He’s entirely too social.  He loves playing with other children and although he likes numbers he can diversify.  As a special education teacher I’m well versed in the spectrum and do see some characteristics but many others that make me feel it isn’t that.  Sometimes his intense obsessions, which have always been number related, make me question things.  Then he’ll do something and I decide there is no way that is what it can be.  I’ve been reading a lot about gifted children and how they can show many behavior characteristics that fall on the spectrum so I’m really thinking that a quirky little gifted child is what we have on our hands. J

Thanks so much for your replies.  It is nice to talk to others that have gone through similar situations.  I feel very alone in this because none of my friend’s children can do the things he is capable of.  I don’t want to sound like I’m being that bragging mom that thinks her child is gifted.  I have a 2^nd grader that I’ve never thought that about so I know my son is just different.  The things he has been doing since he could talk have just blown my mind but I’m not the type of person that is going to talk a lot about it. 

I agree that the schools don’t do much with differentiating math so I think that is why I’m concerned about him entering school.  What is he going to do when all his classmates are just learning to recognize numbers and he’s already multiplying them???  I’m just praying he qualifies for the G/T program since our district does have a great one for public school.  The kids actually go to a different campus where they get higher level instruction.  It is just so hard to qualify and my fear is with the recent budget cuts it is going to be harder.  The special programs always get the deepest cuts, especially G/T.   

[KCMichigan]

We have the same concerns with our going into K DDs-- only it is with reading.

They  can both 'read'  just about anything,  both have very very high science/social studies knowledge, read silently for large amounts of time with good comprehension, and comprehend at a late 2nd/late 3rd depending on the subject matter & social context.

DD2 is VERY obsessive about it. She will/would read 8+ hours a day if we let her. She taught herself to read at age 3 and was fluent by 4 - prefers factual information since the 'social' situations in many books are now above her experience level. DD1 is right behind her by about 6 months. We worried about Aspergers due to her very obsessive nature and ability to fixate and memorize vast amounts of information. DD1 does have a PDD_ NOS dx but is not nearly as obsessive- more of the social skill aspect is delayed and she has some sensory stuff.

They will be in a K/1 split. Which we are happy about since there are some high level 1st graders on the class- so they should be able to do 2nd/3rd grade reading. I am a bit worried that they will not do much per science/social studies since that is both DDs interests and K tends to be focused on reading/writing skills. 

They are at a mid 1st grade for math. Which actually worries me a bit more--- since as you said there is often little differentiation for math. BUT in the K/1 split they DO differentiate and the principal said they could place them in the 1st grade for math if needed. As a PP stated- they are not as familiar with the 'print' skills needed for school based math (most of what we do is with manipulatives or mental math), but really- that is just a matter of exposure and will be very easy to pick up.

We will see how it goes- we have already talked to the gifted coordinator and she says they will evaluate once the school year starts.  There are not GT schools, but a GT teacher that acts as a resource for each building-- official GT pull out starts in 2nd grade.

[whatsnextmom]

My youngest started kindergarten and 4 and was advanced in math. It really hasn't been too big a problem. For starters, our district is advanced in math. What you described is more 1st/2nd grade than 2rd/3rd. Math is nice and rather iscolated skill and pretty easy to subject accelerate in. As they age, there are more opportunities to accelerate in math than say Language Arts. We didn't stress about it much in kindergarten. He got higher level worksheets but nothing really formal. In 1st grade, DS got a subject acceleration in math as well as a special advanced math pull-out a couple times a week. My eldest didn't start K advanced in math but completed the K and 1st grade math curriculum in the first month or so of school. She ended up moving up a full due to multiple factors but then she had a subject acceleration on top of that.

The math, like every subject really, is most difficult the first couple years when it's all about the basics. Then the subject broadens and there is more to it. Check out subject acceleration options. Find out if his K work in math can be swapped for the older material if you'd rather him stay in K full-time.

[moominmamma]

My youngest was at least that advanced prior to KG age, but she's unschooled, so we haven't had any issues in terms of fitting her into a school grade. She eventually moved into a math curriculum, rather than just learning things through her vast conversational curiosity about numbers as she'd done up to about that age, but continued to move ahead at her own pace. At newly-8 she's now comfortably wrapping up the 6th grade level books. The numbers obsession which she had at age 4-5 definitely lessened as her world got bigger. She got interested in baking and reading and violin and piano and aikido and soccer and electricity and biological taxonomy and scores of other things. If I hadn't seen similar longstanding obsessions in my older kids temper once they got beyond age 5 (dinosaurs, fantasy novels, world geography anyone? oy, those were biggies) I might have worried the way you do. But she's now an incredibly well-rounded kid. Age 4 seems to be when these things peak, then they moderate, just naturally.

When my youngest was five I introduced her to Hands-on Equations, a nifty program for introducing algebraic problem-solving to young children using manipulatives. You might find that a useful resource to help provide some interest for him if he's suffering through simple addition and counting at school, because it lies outside the normal elementary curriculum and therefore doesn't exacerbate the curricular mismatch by accelerating him through those sequential arithmetical skills they'll be teaching him. It works best if your child is already familiar with addition and subtraction of positive and negative integers, and multiplication and division facts up to about 30. I think it's intended for 3rd through 6th grades as a supplement/enrichment. So he might not quite be there yet, I don't know, but it might be a resource to keep in mind for the future.

Miranda

[Cherkay]

Thanks ladies!   I like the idea of asking his teacher to give him more challenging work.  I am going to check into accelerated programs and pull out programs.  I work in a different district than my children attend so I am not sure what they offer for children that are advanced other than G/T.  

Miranda, thanks for sharing about your daughter’s interests.  It made me feel a lot better.  My daughter went through phases where she liked certain things but nothing compared to the obsession my son has with numbers and math.  It is nice to hear how well rounded your daughter is now.  At what age did you start piano with her?  We are thinking about putting him in piano lessons this fall. 

I’m going to check out the Hands on Equations.  That sounds like a great supplement to do at home.  I’m always looking for new ways to challenge him so that this might be something to try over the summer.  Thanks!

[moominmamma]

Originally Posted by Cherkay 

It is nice to hear how well rounded your daughter is now.  At what age did you start piano with her?  We are thinking about putting him in piano lessons this fall. 

She was 5.5. She had already been studying violin for some time by that point though. She doesn't do piano anymore. As she progressed it was too much to practice two instruments every day. She was only 7 and practicing was taking close to 2 hours. One instrument is much better for a kid who is interested in as many things as she is.

Miranda

[Roar]

I feel like we've entered a very strange time in history. In the past when parents saw their son was obsessed with math they thought - hey maybe he'll be a mathematician when he grows up. And, now people wonder if the child has Asperger's. Even if a kid's math is not rooted in social interaction, math is a perfectly valid thing to love and it is even something that is likely to pay the bills. As I'm sure you know just because something is different it doesn't mean it is something wrong or that it is a problem to fix.

I'm afraid I don't have insight on how to handle it in a school environment because we homeschooled, but yes, we were dealing with atypical level of math interest and aptitude before kindergarten.

[mom2ponygirl]

Originally Posted by Roar 

I feel like we've entered a very strange time in history. In the past when parents saw their son was obsessed with math they thought - hey maybe he'll be a mathematician when he grows up. And, now people wonder if the child has Asperger's. Even if a kid's math is not rooted in social interaction, math is a perfectly valid thing to love and it is even something that is likely to pay the bills. As I'm sure you know just because something is different it doesn't mean it is something wrong or that it is a problem to fix.

I'm afraid I don't have insight on how to handle it in a school environment because we homeschooled, but yes, we were dealing with atypical level of math interest and aptitude before kindergarten.

Yes this!  Why is socializing around math and physics sad anyway? 

Our daughter was also very advanced in math before K.  It was part of our decision to homeschool and it has been a great adventure for the past 7 years.  I think the fact that the school culture would stigmatize a child who was so advanced also played a part in our decision.  We wanted our girl to have a chance to enjoy being who she was.  As an almost teen, she has a wide range of interests and friends and even gave a heck of a toastmaster's speech on why math is cool. LOL

[Cherkay]

Originally Posted by Roar 

I feel like we've entered a very strange time in history. In the past when parents saw their son was obsessed with math they thought - hey maybe he'll be a mathematician when he grows up. And, now people wonder if the child has Asperger's. Even if a kid's math is not rooted in social interaction, math is a perfectly valid thing to love and it is even something that is likely to pay the bills. As I'm sure you know just because something is different it doesn't mean it is something wrong or that it is a problem to fix.

Very valid point! 

[spedteacher30]

Roar, I certainly understand and appreciate your point, and we can go round and round about the existence of Asperger's and the validity of the diagnosis in some situations, but the reality is that the definition of "normal" has narrowed so dramatically, and the push toward early intervention has increased so that there really is no way to stop what has already been set in motion by the people around these quirky little guys. For those of us who are teachers--particularly special education teachers, even more particularly those of us who are resource teachers and often play the role of assessor and identifier of kids with disabilities--it is a constant internal struggle.

I recently discovered that a distant cousin of ours who is a clinical psychologist--who has never met my son, and has met me a handful of times in my life--told my parents over the phone that it sounds like DS might have Asperger's. Her reason? Because he is math-obsessed and has some auditory defensiveness and because he is shy about interacting with my parents. My parents are the grandparents he sees maybe 3 times a year for 1 to 3 days at a time. My father was apparently hurt that my son doesn't leap off the train screaming his name and jumping into his arms in a crowded train station after a 10 hour trip, and this cousin suggested that maybe he has Asperger's because of that.

It is a strange time in history--but when the forces all around you are what they are, AND you have seen deep denial on the part of other parents as part of your work as a diagnostician, you can't help but second guess yourself...

[Cherkay]

I think for me personally I have concerns because as a special education teacher I know how hard it can be for a child in the public school system that doesn't fit the mold.  As a mother I want to do everything in my power to help him be successful and I definitely don't want his hunger for knowledge to be squelched.  That is why I was seeking input from others that have had similar situations in the public school environment.  I want to be proactive and have a game plan for the hurdles we may encounter.  I have some worries but it doesn't mean I want to fix my son.  I love who he is and I think he is one amazing little boy!  I just want do my part to help him to reach his potential. 

[serenbat]

I recently discovered that a distant cousin of ours who is a clinical psychologist--who has never met my son, and has met me a handful of times in my life--told my parents over the phone that it sounds like DS might have Asperger's. Her reason? Because he is math-obsessed and has some auditory defensiveness and because he is shy about interacting with my parents. My parents are the grandparents he sees maybe 3 times a year for 1 to 3 days at a time. My father was apparently hurt that my son doesn't leap off the train screaming his name and jumping into his arms in a crowded train station after a 10 hour trip, and this cousin suggested that maybe he has Asperger's because of that.

try being told your child has ADHD because he only wants you to read to him all day long (or write or count) and won't just SIT and PLAY by himself!! (told by one of those experts!)

[Emma Bryan Fuller]

Montessori would be a good school as gifted children are encouraged regardless of their grade level. Each child learns at their own pace. 

[Cherkay]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emma Bryan Fuller 

Montessori would be a good school as gifted children are encouraged regardless of their grade level. Each child learns at their own pace. 

Love this concept!  My son's preschool is actually designed like a Montessori and is completely centered based.  The children decide what centers they go to with the encouragement of the teacher.  He is thriving in this environment.  Of course public school is not set up anything like this so next year could be very interesting for us.  Hence my concerns.  It is really tough on us financially to afford this school so next year he has to go to public school.  Oh how I wish I could win the lottery!  I'd have so many options that I don't have now. :)