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[Roar]

Originally Posted by spedteacher30 

Roar, I certainly understand and appreciate your point, and we can go round and round about the existence of Asperger's and the validity of the diagnosis in some situations, but the reality is that the definition of "normal" has narrowed so dramatically, and the push toward early intervention has increased so that there really is no way to stop what has already been set in motion by the people around these quirky little guys.

Cringing at the tentative phone diagnosing by the cousin....eek.

The only idea I have to stem the tide is that I'd like to see more education about the common traits of gifted kids. If that information was something more educators and therapists had we might see less misdiagnosis and a greater chance that accurately diagnosed kids would also have needs related to giftedness addressed. I understand there is always the risk of parents wrapping themselves in giftedness and ignoring real problems, but understanding giftedness less won't help.

I'm all for addressing problems that are making kids uncomfortable and that includes auditory defensiveness and social problems. I am concerned though about the every narrowing definition of normal. In college math, physics and computer science departments (among others) many quirky people can be found. I'm sure some of them could have used some help as kids But, at the same time we shouldn't lose sight that they did grow up and for the most part most are okay. Those passionate interests weren't the problem - they were the key to life turning out okay.

[pigpokey]

Have you looked at EPGY math for differentiation?  Or if the teacher is willing, you could send some probably 3rd grade workbooks with him for him to complete during math time, and he could bring them home to you to check if she didn't have time to check them.  I home school K and 1st *age* children and we right now do our whole math curriculum in work books (with some enrichment here and there).

You could also look at scholarships to private schools if the public school will not be flexible enough.

[spedteacher30]

You are exactly right, Roar. My son--for example--has incredible texture issues with food as well. He won't eat anything with lumps in it and if there is a lump in something (like a muffin with a clump of flour), he immediately stops eating the rest of it. We knew about his peanut allergy early on, and so we left it alone. We recently discovered that he is allergic to every single tree nut and sesame seeds. (maybe other seeds too? they weren't tested).

All of a sudden, his pickiness isn't a disorder, it is an evolutionary adaptation, and we have an answer to the question, "what happened to caveman children who were allergic to nuts?" Probably some did die, but our son, at least, would have kept himself alive by refusing to eat the foods that were likely to cause problems based on their texture.

There are a lot of things in his profile that point toward Asperger's. there are a lot of things in his uncle's profile that point toward Asperger's and there are a lot of things in his maternal great-grandfather's profile that point toward Asperger's. And, given the fact that he is donor-conceived, there is a greater chance of Asperger's from that as well. (Frozen-sperm babies have a greater chance of diagnosis, though no one knows why).

So, maybe it is Asperger's--or maybe it is quirky, gifted things. My brother and grandfather were both incredibly talented and successful financial people, who were devoted to their wives, and active in their communities and with their children. I'd be thrilled if my little guy followed in their footsteps.

OP--I hope this isn't too much of a thread-jack for you. I don't have great advice, since we're where you are and not on the other side of it yet. But, I do have a lot of commiseration and sympathy...

[loraxc]

Our experience in K and 1 has indeed been that DD was enriched for reading but not for math. The whole class does the same curriculum for math. DD has never been given extra work and is considered "on grade level" despite the fact that she has many advanced skills (which she probably has never had a chance to demonstrate...she does get 100% on every test and assignment, though).

[Geofizz]

{Edit:  Just reread the OP and realized she's a teacher herself, so much of the below is not for her but for the other people saying "yeah, we're in the same boat."}

We're in the same boat.  DS understands numbers and spatial relationships to a degree that far exceeded my daughter at this age.  He has the ability to take a concept and generalize it with little apparent effort. 

Yes, differentiating reading in kindergarten (and first) is much easier, and teachers seem more comfortable with it.

Kindergarten here (half day) dedicates most of the academic time on reading, with very little on math.  DS is agreeable enough to likely do ok as long as they're only spending 10 minutes a day counting dots on dice.  Any more than that and he'll create problems.  First grade, however, will be entirely different, where they'll be spending an hour a day, every day, on math. 

We had kindergarten screen (non academic) this morning.  I talked to the intervention coordinator and asked that she keep DS on her radar.  I was clear - I though kindergarten was ok as long as the amount of time each day was quite brief, but I worried about him as the days got longer with more time on math.  I have a clear advantage, however, in that I have an older daughter at the school with a math subject acceleration into a gifted program that compacts the curriculum.  I'm known as a reasonable, respectful, and helpful parent at the school that plays by the rules.  I'm also insistent, consistent, and on top of details.  I know the testing procedures and requirements, and can talk the edu-lingo with the school. 

When talking to the school, it will be important to get your vocabulary straight:  Acceleration does not mean "let my kid move faster," it means skipping.  Curriculum compaction means "let my kid move through more than one grade's material in a year."  Also realize that NCLB makes schools very risk adverse, and they tend to fear a child having gaps resulting from a skip.

My experience is that it's important to work with the teacher closely, acknowledge that their focus is on the kids that are struggling to count to 20, and consistently politely prod for appropriate materials and instruction.  A good approach I've had is to ask the teacher (1) "What are your (reading/math/something specific) goals for my child this year?" (2) "How far along in achieving those goals is he at this point?" and then (3) "What's the plan for when he meets those goals before the end of the year?"  My approach is not to get a good answer, but to have the teacher think through where the kid is and have the teacher realize my kid is well out of level.  My experience is that I get wishy washy "pat, pat, there, there,  mommy" kind of answers, but differentiation begins soon thereafter.

Developing Math Talent is a very good book for people whose kids are G/T in mathematics.  The focus seems to be on slightly older kids, but it certainly helped me in understanding the options, figuring out how out of level my daughter really was (and get me wondering if my DS is out out beyond even that level), and giving me the confidence that I was making very reasonable requests for my DD's academic and social well-being.

[Roar]

Originally Posted by spedteacher30 

You are exactly right, Roar. My son--for example--has incredible texture issues with food as well. He won't eat anything with lumps in it and if there is a lump in something (like a muffin with a clump of flour), he immediately stops eating the rest of it. We knew about his peanut allergy early on, and so we left it alone. We recently discovered that he is allergic to every single tree nut and sesame seeds. (maybe other seeds too? they weren't tested).

All of a sudden, his pickiness isn't a disorder, it is an evolutionary adaptation, and we have an answer to the question, "what happened to caveman children who were allergic to nuts?" Probably some did die, but our son, at least, would have kept himself alive by refusing to eat the foods that were likely to cause problems based on their texture.

There are a lot of things in his profile that point toward Asperger's. there are a lot of things in his uncle's profile that point toward Asperger's and there are a lot of things in his maternal great-grandfather's profile that point toward Asperger's. And, given the fact that he is donor-conceived, there is a greater chance of Asperger's from that as well. (Frozen-sperm babies have a greater chance of diagnosis, though no one knows why).

So, maybe it is Asperger's--or maybe it is quirky, gifted things. My brother and grandfather were both incredibly talented and successful financial people, who were devoted to their wives, and active in their communities and with their children. I'd be thrilled if my little guy followed in their footsteps.

I didn't know children conceived with donor sperm were more likely to have Asperger's. I would love to know if anyone has studied to look if it is that donors are more likely to have ASD traits or if it is something about the freezing process.

It does seem like there are quite a few PG kids, boys in particular, who tend to have ASD traits that are very troublesome as preschoolers but fade out as a significant concern as they get older. Of course some do end up with an accurate diagnosis of Asperger's. It is so tough to predict how that will play out so I think the best bet is to look in a respectful way at what is genuinely bothering the child and try to help him find ways to cope with it. Your nut allergy example is also a great one. We really need to take time to listen to kids and recognize these preference can be about a lot more than just being picky.

[Roar]

Originally Posted by spedteacher30 

So, maybe it is Asperger's--or maybe it is quirky, gifted things. My brother and grandfather were both incredibly talented and successful financial people, who were devoted to their wives, and active in their communities and with their children. I'd be thrilled if my little guy followed in their footsteps.

And, I wonder.... If they'd been told repeatedly a children that they had a lifelong neurological disorder that impairs their ability to function socially - would they still have seen themselves as men who could become good partners and parents? If they had gone online and read many tales of unhappy adults with autism who could not form romantic attachments or friendship, would they have seen themselves as capable of doing so?
 

[serenbat]

did everyone seen the info on this? (they are know for their math achievers too!) Aspergers-link hard to say since the story doesn't tell that much about the study

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42949599/ns/health-kids_and_parenting/

[Cherkay]

I'm on my lunch break and reading all the posts.  I don't mind at all that it has gone off the original topic.  The Aspergers issues are still very relevant to me as both a mom and a teacher.  I am really enjoying reading what you guys have to say on the topic.  The line between being gifted and other types of disorders that fall in the special education realm is a fine one for sure.  In ways they are all intertwined.  I have students that are extremely delayed in some areas and profoundly gifted in others.  The challenge is being able to help the child find balance. 

 

Were any of children preemies?  My son was born 6 1/2 weeks early so I think that is also another reason I question his quirks.  He hit his milestones late until around the age of 2 and then I couldn't keep up with his thirst for knowledge.  People hated to baby-sit him because he would follow them around asking questions as to how and why things worked, etc.  He definitely keeps me on my toes!

[spedteacher30]

Originally Posted by Roar 

I didn't know children conceived with donor sperm were more likely to have Asperger's. I would love to know if anyone has studied to look if it is that donors are more likely to have ASD traits or if it is something about the freezing process.

My understanding is that there is no thought that those who donate sperm are more likely to have ASD traits. The increased prevalence pretty closely mirrors the increased prevalence that occurs when fathers are over 40, so the assumption is that somehow the freeze/thaw process "ages" the sperm in the same way that 40+ year old testicles do.

I heard about the South Korean study this morning on NPR. I personally think it just shows us that many people fit the clinical symptom list of Asperger's without meeting the condition that those symptoms IMPACT functioning. i don't think it says that there is something inherent to South Koreans that make them more likely to have ASD--in fact the summary i heard said that there is no reason to think the same thing wouldn't happen in the U.S.

I think this demonstrates that there is a very good chance that the autism epidemic is at least in part, socially constructed. I would love to see the results of a study of 55,000 random 35 year olds to see what the prevalence of ASD traits are in that population. I wonder if it might be 1 in 38...

[loraxc]

I would love to see the results of a study of 55,000 random 35 year olds to see what the prevalence of ASD traits are in that population. I wonder if it might be 1 in 38...

Have I got the study for you!

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/05/02/us-autism-idUSTRE7416XC20110502

"Researchers found nearly one percent of Britons older than 16 years have autism, a rate that is similar to that seen in children. Younger people were no more likely to be affected than older ones, however, which would have been expected if the condition were truly on the increase.

"It was surprising to all of us," said Dr. Traolach Brugha, a psychiatrist at the University of Leicester, who worked on the study. "If this study is correct, it does put a big question mark over the autism epidemic.""

I find the whole subject of the autism epidemic (or not) extremely fascinating. Here's another article with food for thought:


http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/04/100408161017.htm

"The study, by researchers from the Institute for Social and Economic Research and Policy at Columbia University, found that children living near a child who has been previously diagnosed with autism have a much higher chance of being diagnosed themselves in the following year. The increased likelihood of being diagnosed is not due to environmental factors or contagious agents, the study found. Rather, it is due mainly to parents learning about autism from other parents who have a child diagnosed with the disorder."

[delphine]

OP, this thread made me smile because it reminded me of when DS was in first grade.  He was having some slilght focus/behavioral issues in class and his teacher and I decided to put together a chart for him so that he could self assess his behavior throughout the day.  If he had a certain number of "good days", we was going to get a treat. 

When the teacher asked him what he would like for a treat, he said, "all I want to do is learn fractions"

The same teacher purchased him some math workbooks that he could work on in his free time during school.  She made the mistake of telling him he could get a treat from their "treasure box" for every 10 sheets he did.  He finished them all within a few weeks and she told him he was working too fast

He was doing long division prior to kindergarten and has been obsessed with math on and off since he was a toddler. 

He's in third grade now and they are just starting long division.  He actually enjoys math class in school, even though they are covering content that he has known for several years.  At this point, he is in the regular third grade classroom for all subjects.  We recently had him tested however, and he completed the school testing about a month ago, so we may make some different decisions after we get the results.

What we do is supplement at home.  Whatever he is currently interested in (right now it happens to be the periodic table of the elements) is what we focus on.  It works better for us not to focus on things they are going to learn in school later on but rather to augment those things with subject matter that he really won't be exposed to until middle or high school.

[monkeybum]

OP, just wanted to follow up on your original question and say that we were in a similar situation where DS was way far ahead in math on entering kindergarten (could do long division when the rest of the class was learning to count to 10).  He had a fantastic teacher who recognized how far ahead he was right away, and he ended up being a helper for the rest of the class.  He loves to "teach" and so he loved that role.  Many of the activities also accomodated his differences as they were manipulative - i.e. they worked individually in small groupings, so when the rest of the class was working on counting objects by one's, he would group them in to subgroups and count by 5's, 8's, etc, or make them in to math problems - i.e. adding and subtracting them.  Or when the rest of the class was learning how to attach little blocks together to make a chain of 5 or 10, he would use different coloured ones to make patterns and/or find different ways he could make sets of 100.  She would go around to each child and help them out / see if they were doing it correctly, and she would be fine with the fact that he was making up his own activities and would often challenge him and ask him other things.

She also gave him "jobs" to do if he was getting bored while the rest of the class was practicing simple stuff as a group - i.e. he could hold the alphabet chart while the class reviewed their letters as a group, or pick which letters they put on the chart, etc. (he was reading at about a grade 2 level also).

So if you get a good teacher, they may be able to work with your child so they still enjoy school.  My son LOVED kindergarten, so he was happy (but did get bored at times and really didn't learn a thing).

[MJB]

My gifted son (middle child) is in kindergarten this year. He started at about a 3rd-4th grade reading level and somewhat advanced in math-- not enough for me to be concerned about differentiation. I have actually been surprised by how little math they did this year-- reading is very much the focus. I don't think a kid would be terribly bored by what little math they do, no matter how advanced they are. It's only a few minutes a day. I think it would be more of an issue in 1st grade. 

Also, my oldest, who is not gifted, was very interested in math before he learned to read. He was doing 2nd grade math in kindergarten. He's still doing 2nd/3rd grade math in 2nd grade! Once he learned to read fluently, his interest in math sort of disappeared. He can now be found with his nose in a book all day. 

[Cherkay]

Thank you so much for all the posts.  You guys have given me a lot to think about and I have to say I’ve been doing quite a bit of soul searching the last few days based on some of the posts I’ve read on here.  I was planning on sending my son to our hometown school district but now I’m highly considering bringing him to school with me.  I still have a lot to think about, though.  There are pros and cons for him coming to school with me so it isn’t an easy decision.  Thanks for helping shed some light on this situation.  Sounds like his school experience can be a very good one with the right teacher and lots of support from home.  I don’t figure he’ll learn much of anything new academically in kindergarten but it doesn’t mean he can’t enjoy the experience.