What hasn't worked for me unschooling (AKA What did I do wrong)

[Mizelenius]

We have been homeschooling/unschooling for the last almost 3 years.  My DD is 9.  I am confident that her skills are at least in-line with her peers, with one exception: math.  She used to enjoy math (even when she went to school) and even skipped ahead in math in school . . .but something happened (in school) and she started hating it.

It has taken her a long time to get past the math hate.  She would bring up math questions but then get mad at herself for it . . .not want to figure out the answers, etc.  I did not push.  However, lately I have been concerned because I did not see her getting ahead.  She was actually behind in math.  She did not "get it" intuitively.  I have been spending the last maybe 2 months on focused math lessons with her, and she is getting back on track AND her confidence is returning.  So, now that she is becoming more confident in math, slowly she is starting to enjoy it again.

She adores science . . .math is science's sister, no?  So, I need for her to at least be confident in math to support what she is asking for in science.  (She WANTS a focused program for science and she wants higher levels of science that do involve math.)

I have read many stories about u/s'd children who just "got" math.  My suspicion now is that those children have a gift for math.  My oldest DD is this way with so many things . . .she just gets it.  She and her sister taught themselves to read, for example.  However, my 2nd DD just has the intuitive sense about math.  SHE could just get it without any direct instruction (though she actually likes to be taught it directly).  Oldest DD is not this way, or at least in regard to calculations.  (She has no problem setting up word problems.)

Ultimately, it seems like by avoiding math/letting her lead the way, I was doing her a disservice.  I actually DO know of people who have not memorized their multiplication tables.  One would think, well, then they never needed to learn them.  (Isn't that the u/s way?) BUT, the people I know with this issue actually have had very limited opportunities in life and are really struggling . . .obviously knowing the mul. tables is only a symptom of a bigger issue and would not have meant that they would NOT be struggling if they had them memorized. 

I also know that 99% of u/s'ers would not be concerned about their children being "behind" so this argument does not even fit here.  But, as I said, since DD wants to move ahead in science, I have worried about her lack of math skills affecting this. 

At this point, I am no longer labeling myself an u/s'er since apparently I do NOT have trust in the process with regard to math.  It's been an interesting journey!

[4evermom]

I wouldn't be worried about a lack of math skills at such a young age, personally.  9 just seems so young and hardly ready for any kind of structured learning.  My ds hasn't been doing much with math lately.  But his reading and writing skills have been improving steadily.  And he likes math and thinks he's good at it so I'm happy with his being in a good place (having a good attitude) for when he's ready to explore more.  He does not have his "math facts" memorized in the least.  

Not memorizing the multiplication tables fully didn't slow me down much.  I still did fine in Calculus and college.  You get to use a calculator in higher math and in science class, anyway. 

[Mizelenius]

I would not have pushed any structured learning . . .DD herself wanted that.  She was getting bored.  She said she wanted to be challenged, and it happened that my friend sent my info about "Moving Beyond the Page."  I showed it to DD and she was so excited . . . we didn't get it, but we then explored other things that she did want (science kits and the Singapore science book for 7-8 grade). 

And while I agree about the calculator, I do think it is really inconvenient not to have the X tables memorized.  I keep telling DD it isn't even really math-- ultimately it's just memorization (and arithmetic) but a basic thing to have in your head.  She started watching the videos from Khan Academy (she enjoys those) and surprisingly even he suggests that is the one thing you should memorize.  Sort of like telling time . . .you could always get by with a digital watch, but why not learn analog, too?

[sapphire_chan]

I think that you were right to follow her lead and give her the lessons she requested. If they frustrated her, naturally you would've backed off, but it was 100% good to give them a shot.

The few anecdotes I've seen on letting math skills develop as they will seem to indicate that the age for math is about 15-16 (in the same manner that the age for reading is 8-9) as in that's the point where things will just click for a child who isn't picking it up immediately.

[Mizelenius]

Very interesting re: the age for math.  Makes me feel better.  Interestingly, she was coming up with math problems tonight at dinner (long ago we started a tradition of word problems at dinner . . .no one fights or complains that way) and was having fun with that.  She seems to be, as I said, more confident now that she has moved ahead of where she was.
 

Originally Posted by sapphire_chan 

I think that you were right to follow her lead and give her the lessons she requested. If they frustrated her, naturally you would've backed off, but it was 100% good to give them a shot.

The few anecdotes I've seen on letting math skills develop as they will seem to indicate that the age for math is about 15-16 (in the same manner that the age for reading is 8-9) as in that's the point where things will just click for a child who isn't picking it up immediately.

[NellieKatz]

You might enjoy reading Peter Gray's article about math:

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/freedom-learn/201004/kids-learn-math-easily-when-they-control-their-own-learning

[chfriend]

The RightStart math games are pretty cheap and actually fun. You don't need to buy the whole program to use them. If she's wanting math and looking to make learning the facts useful it's a good one. Also, there's Smath.

My dd really nailed the times tables with Times Tales. It's a weird system, but worked for her.

[Piglet68]

It really bothers me when someone feels they can't use the "unschooling label" because they've chosen something that is perhaps more "schooly" but consistent with what the child wants. Mizelenius, you are obviously staying closely attuned to your daughter's needs and it sounds from your post that she is wanting and asking for this type of learning...that she is involved in these decisions, has input, and is pleased with how its going. To me, that is still unschooling. People who automatically reject anything "schooly" without considering the context are, IMNSHO, simply missing the point of unschooling. I'm certainly not on any committee, but AFAIC you're an unschooler. ;-)

[rightkindofme]

I didn't learn my times tables *at all* until 8th grade.  I still only know a few key ones and I add or subtract from there.  I'm pretty successful. :)

[Jane93]

As somone who was interested in and excelled in science but struggled in math, I think what you are doing for your daughter is wonderful. 

I did end up with a science major in college but only in a discipline that is not math intensive (geology), and did not go onto graduate work in science, in part due to the math issue.

In my experience, I do disagree with those who say it will of course all come together -- I was weak on the fundamentals from elementary school on, and always struggled without having those building blocks just being innately "known" to me.

[4evermom]

Originally Posted by Jane93 

In my experience, I do disagree with those who say it will of course all come together -- I was weak on the fundamentals from elementary school on, and always struggled without having those building blocks just being innately "known" to me.

Struggled in a school setting?  Or were you homeschooled and struggled with math until you went to college at which point you avoided math heavy science?  What's nice about unschooling and other types of child led homeschooling is you can stop one thing to delve more deeply into another.  So there's no fear of falling behind with a science course while you look at the related math.  It wouldn't even seem a separate subject to a child who never had subjects divided the way they are in school.  A schooled child needs to follow the same curriculum as her entire class at the same exact pace.  It's easy to get lost or left behind in that situation.  Child led homeschooling is an individual education that is much more flexible and goes at the child's pace without the need to keep up with peers.

I think it's a good idea to brainstorm ways to help an unschooled child when they are frustrated with something.  But it can also a good idea to let something be for a while, at times.  Letting a child develop and mature frequently has excellent results in that the child is ready to learn that thing with less or no frustration.  And with no baggage from previous bad associations with attempts to be taught that thing.  

[moominmamma]

Originally Posted by 4evermom 

What's nice about unschooling and other types of child led homeschooling is you can stop one thing to delve more deeply into another.  So there's no fear of falling behind with a science course while you look at the related math.  

I think this is a crucial point. While platitudes like "it'll all come together in good time" can be harmful when a child is struggling and uncomfortable with where she's at and clearly needs something different to get unstuck, if the child is happy and it's merely the [formerly-schooled] parent who is worried about the fundamentals 4evermom's point is right on the money.

Case in point: I have a young adult friend who was always unschooled. She spent her childhood and teen years doing everything related to the arts: playing violin, fiddle, sewing historical costumes, spinning, weaving, knitting, reading, drawing, painting, sculpting little houses and cities out of folded paper or mud or clay. She had basic checkbook arithmetic skills, having done most of Miquon math (K-3 level) and picked up little mental math skills as she'd grown up. And then at age 17 or so she suddenly decided that she wanted to study green architecture. Architecture, with all its math-heavy engineering considerations. She would need not only basic high school math but excellent grades and more advanced courses. Thus motivated, and much to her own surprise delighted by the logic and symmetry of math, she delved in and discovered she could excel at it. She was able to gain admission to her program of choice at a selective college and is doing very well indeed.

Lack of mastery of the basics is a problem in a school system because (a) there's no time later to awaken interest and make a detour that will remedy the lack if it proves problematic and because (b) other areas of learning are often designed to rely on those so-called prerequisite skills, such that a student who doesn't have them will be lost and confused. Neither of these are the case in unschooling. It is possible to learn a lot of physics, for example, without knowing algebra. And if the learner wants to focus on the parts of physics that require algebraic manipulation of formulae, there's plenty of opportunity for a diversion into algebra.
 

Miranda

[moominmamma]

Originally Posted by Piglet68 

It really bothers me when someone feels they can't use the "unschooling label" because they've chosen something that is perhaps more "schooly" but consistent with what the child wants. Mizelenius, you are obviously staying closely attuned to your daughter's needs and it sounds from your post that she is wanting and asking for this type of learning...that she is involved in these decisions, has input, and is pleased with how its going. To me, that is still unschooling. People who automatically reject anything "schooly" without considering the context are, IMNSHO, simply missing the point of unschooling. I'm certainly not on any committee, but AFAIC you're an unschooler. ;-)

I totally agree. To me unschooling is about not drawing boundaries around a part of your life and saying "this is learning, and that, over there, is just life." In unschooling it's all one big ball of wax. If my 12-year-old uses a DK science encyclopedia as a 'resource' and remains an unschooler, but comes to prefer an AP biology textbook which looks the same except to her except that it has more of the detailed information she wants and is then disqualified as an unschooler that seems very odd, because to her they're no different. If I brush off my 8-year-old who wants to do multiplication speed drill (because it's something I believe falls under the realm of school), she'd be mystified. Why is sudoku considered recreational but multiplication drill sheets are school-like and therefore considered a poor choice? To her they're all the same: fun, intellectually challenging pencil-and-paper work with numbers.

Miranda

[Roar]

Originally Posted by Mizelenius 

  I actually DO know of people who have not memorized their multiplication tables.  One would think, well, then they never needed to learn them.  (Isn't that the u/s way?) BUT, the people I know with this issue actually have had very limited opportunities in life and are really struggling . . .obviously knowing the mul. tables is only a symptom of a bigger issue and would not have meant that they would NOT be struggling if they had them memorized. 

Parent of a math major (with a perfect GPA) and at last check he didn't know all his multiplication tables - he knows some and works from there but so quickly you'd never know. I actually think it served him really well NOT to memorize them as the starting point. Memorizing times tables is not a substitute for being able to recognize and thinking about patterns. For most students who don't have learning disabilities, they will be able to memorize them when the motivation hits. This is one of the things that educational software can do really well. I see the bigger risk not that students will miss out on memorizing them but instead that defining math about memorization before kids are ready can make some kids really turn against math. I absolutely don't think you should stop exploring math, I just wouldn't make it about memorizing the tables if that's not what she's interested in right now.
 

[Greenmama2]

Uh, quick response without having read the thread. I never memorised more than a few multiplication tables. Really. I also succesfully completed such advanced maths at the end of highschool that when I wanted to enrol in the "regular" math course in the first year of my science degree the lecturers wouldn't let because I'd be bored silly. So I really don't think not having memorised tables holds people back. I can figure them out if I need to know, it just takes me a second longer than most people.

[SweetSilver]

If science is where she wants to go (at least for now) then find people and books and resources on the subject of science that include math instead of teaching math separately.  

     At our 6- and 4-yo level (academics is incidental, stories reign supreme) a book like "Zookeeper for a Day" and others in that series are a lot of fun.  It is about being taking care of animals at the zoo, and offers math as puzzles (calculating, say, if a orphaned gorilla needs X amount of milk, how many 8oz bottles are fed per day? How many 4oz bottles? etc.)  They are probably written for kids your DD's age, I just didn't notice and we skipped some and stuck to the storyline on those pages.  Our family is young enough that math is considered a puzzle.

     When sharks and whales were the big passion, we read--phew!--I don't know how many books.  My fact-loving DD1 loved the descriptions of lengths, and when we introduced the idea of measuring them out on a measuring tape, she was enthusiastic, especially when we got to the really big whales and needed to go down the driveway and across the street to measure the blue whale.  We needed every inch of our 100' tape for that one.  That  introduced the idea of "half" which we figured out together (early on she "got" the concept of multiplication, so it is just a matter of running across it often enough.)   She loves charts and graphs presented in those books, both math concepts.  She loves memorizing how long ago and for how long dinosaur species roamed the earth.  

     When we go on a walk at nearby natural areas or in the forest, we take our "science backpacks".  These have each a magnifying glass, colored pencils, a small, stiff-backed sketchbook, ruler, measuring tape.  We "measure" (it is really cute to watch) and draw whatever they want to stop at.  They draw the plants they see, and I teach them a bit about noticing characteristics of plants (nettles have "shark-teeth-sharp-teeth"), but also how the bark on an elderberry bush changes as it gets closer to the ground, eventually getting covered in moss.  Both girls want to be scientist/farmers when they grow up.  So we learn that.  Why not?  DD2 (4yo) loves to prowl through plant/bird/bug/animal track guidebooks and discovering places where roly-polies live (NOT sow bugs, she hates those!).

     Math can be found everywhere.  We've been playing a lot of board games for the last year or so.  Adding up the dice works even for my 4yo, who eventually memorizes the combinations, instead of always counting each dot.  Both want to play at being the banker.  "Battleship" requires understanding graphs.  "Quirkle", pattern recognition.

     I know your daughter is older, but these ideas are meant to show that math doesn't have to be taught by itself.  It can be a side-effect of WHATEVER, if you look for it.  (Math puzzles notwithstanding.  Those are fun, too.)  Find the passion first and work from there.  When you come to an obstacle, find your way around it.  You might come back to it later, from another side, and find that, without trying too hard you can figure it out.  Eventually.  As unschoolers, WE have that luxury.

[Mizelenius]

Nellie-- it would not load for me but from the title, I would agree.  I am keeping this VERY minimal-- no more than 15 min a day.

chfriend, she hates math games.  She does not like anything "fun" about math-- always wants to get to the point. 

Piglet and Miranda, yes, I absolutely know what you mean.  I am not saying I am no longer unschooling because we are using a textbook . . .IF that had been 100% DD's choice, I'd be fine with it.  It isn't-- and that is where I feel like I have lost the label.  As I said, I sort of feel like this is me saying that I do not trust in the process-- to me, the biggest component of u/sing.

rightkind, do you have a generally good "math sense"? 

Jane, yes.  My sister was wonderful in science and wanted to be a doctor, but could not get past the math . . .she went into law because writing (heh, and arguing-- I can attest to that) is her strength.  My parents really never encouraged us in that direction (of math and science) . . .in our home, it was all about language arts-type things because those were THEIR strengths.  Funny though, one grandfather was an accountant and the other a math teacher.  Too bad I never knew them!

4ever, yes, I feel like I have been letting it be for several years . . .DD is 100% of a perfectionist and I can see that she will stop doing things if she feels they are not coming easily.  She has been taking swimming (used to love it) but is comparing herself to others in the class . . .more and more she is avoiding going.  It isn't that she does not LIKE swimming, she doesn't like that she isn't as developed in it as others.  To me, this is a terrible reason to not go-- I feel like she would be depriving herself of something she enjoys due to perfectionism.  I need her to see that it is OK to have to work hard at something-- esp. something you enjoy-- and bask in the successes of your hard work.  This is what I see happening with math.  She is finally seeing that just a little bit of time IS making a difference . . .it isn't hopeless.  She starts to enjoy it when she sees success-- even with math!

Miranda, yes, I understand the point about motivation  . . .this is what I thought would eventually happen (in her teens).  However, she was already developing a complex about math, and I thought that by then she would be "frozen" in a state of being negative about her skills.  I do not want this to happen.  I want her to be CONFIDENT more than anything, to see (as I said) that even if something is hard, she is fully capable of WORKING for something and then achieving success.

Roar, but your son is PG.  I don't think this is a fair example . . . while he may not need to memorize the tables, this does not mean it is true for everyone.  I student-taught in a 5th grade classroom.  There was a girl there who had NO idea of what the X tables were (no memorization) . . . .definitely not PG . . .not interested, and then math was harder for her . . .the harder it got, the more she gave up.  She did have a LD, as you said, but even without a LD we cannot count on math to just "come together" as people have said.  This would mean that EVERYTHING will come together for EVERYONE.  For a child who is PG, this may be true . . .but for the rest of us, no way.  Math never came together for me!  I was so shocked when I took a logic class in college and it was so simple for me.  I did not understand how anyone could get less than an A.  BUT, then I thought-- why am I so scared of math?  Aren't logic and math related?  I do wonder if I had had an EARLY foundation that was very strong, would it have been easier?  It is like reading music . . .while of course, for the young child, this should not be a first step, but I do not believe in delaying reading music for too long because it will never be as natural.  I believe this is true with the language of math.  IF one is exposed to it in the right way AND has the aptitude, then yes, we do not have to worry about the details.  NOT everyone has a math aptitude.  At this point in the game, I guess I cannot say for sure if DD does or does not . . .I can tell you right now that arithmetic is not her strong point, but I am not sure about math.

Green, yes-- I do know that for people who are strong in math, it can be OK.  Not sure about those who are not.

Sweet, my DD has always seen right through any attempt to insert an ulterior motive into an activity.  She was a problem in preK because she questioned why she had to do certain things . . .actually this is why she is no longer in school.  She had to find a REASON to work on something, and the reason had to be hers-- not mine or any teacher's.  So, I know that once I find a way to get her into higher science (also very, very much NOT my strong point) she will want to use math.

We have a book about multiplication that teaches tricks (DH is so against this-- he thinks it should be automatic).  I am thrilled that DD is seeing some little ways to adapt/change the tricks. 

Oh, and I forgot to mention one other CRUCIAL reason I want her to learn these tables . . .DH is not on board with HSing, and against USing.  This is his "thing," the tables.  So, once she learns them, he will get off of our backs.  :)

[rightkindofme]

I do, actually!  And I am freakishly good about squeezing every penny of value out of my budget. :)  I think that part of my comfort with numbers is I have spent my entire life playing a stupid little game with clocks.  I like to treat all of the displayed digits in a clock and add/subtract/multiply them as single units until I find a way to make ten/one hundred so I can drop the zeros and get back to a value of one.  It means that those single digit calculations are REALLY FAST and if you can do those parts really fast, you can get the rest of quickly.  

I have no idea how I came up with this game but I have played it nearly every time I have looked at a clock for 25 years.  I'm quick. :)  But I still don't know the multiplication tables up to 9.  6's and 7's are my hardest ones.  I have up to 5's no problem for everything but it gets harder once I get into anything bigger than 5x5.  I always have to add.

[Mizelenius]

right, I suspected that you DID have a good math sense.  You've proven my point exactly.  Those who enjoy math and/or just intuitively "get it" do NOT have to memorize their tables.  My friend is amazing at math but bad at calculations (she claims).  However, when she describes the tricks she uses to do her calculations, it makes me realize that she is using the math sense she has . . .following the traditional steps is not for her because she is beyond this.  So, while she may not do things the typical way, she is actually going above and beyond using math more deeply.  This fits in with someone who has an intuitive math sense.  For the rest of us who don't, we need to memorize the tables.  I have yet to find someone who does NOT need to memorize the tables, and is NOT successful in math.  DD has given me a few hints that maybe, maybe she has a math sense that, like my friend, does not follow the traditional path . . .I need to find out if I have to get out of her way, or if she actually needs the extra support I am giving her.  Tough to say.  Like I said, leaving her alone didn't seem to help her confidence at all.
 

Originally Posted by rightkindofme 

I do, actually!  And I am freakishly good about squeezing every penny of value out of my budget. :)  I think that part of my comfort with numbers is I have spent my entire life playing a stupid little game with clocks.  I like to treat all of the displayed digits in a clock and add/subtract/multiply them as single units until I find a way to make ten/one hundred so I can drop the zeros and get back to a value of one.  It means that those single digit calculations are REALLY FAST and if you can do those parts really fast, you can get the rest of quickly.  

I have no idea how I came up with this game but I have played it nearly every time I have looked at a clock for 25 years.  I'm quick. :)  But I still don't know the multiplication tables up to 9.  6's and 7's are my hardest ones.  I have up to 5's no problem for everything but it gets harder once I get into anything bigger than 5x5.  I always have to add.

[Dar]

Originally Posted by Mizelenius 

right, I suspected that you DID have a good math sense.  You've proven my point exactly.  Those who enjoy math and/or just intuitively "get it" do NOT have to memorize their tables..
 

Rain doesn't have hers memorized either, and she would say that she doesn't like math and isn't especially good at it (although she's pretty sure she passed her college algebra class this semester with at least a B, which we think is huge ). I've worried off and on that she was making a bigger deal out of math in her had than it had to be, but it really didn't turn out to be a real problem at the end.