The Horse Doesn't Go on the Roof and other concerns

[PeacemongerMom]

My son started in a Montessori primary class, shortly after his 3d birthday. He did not have a good experience. He didn't seem to fit in. He didn't want to do the work and he was not as disciplined and mature as the others. He did behave badly a lot. He was caught in a cycle of misbehavior and rejection by the other children which led to more misbehavior. While I understand his role in all of this, I was kind of shocked that the teachers didn't redirect him or try to help him be more succesful. I expected Mont to be more individualized and meet the child where they are. Instead it felt like an all or nothing, you either fit in or you don't. They have an observation room and I saw for myself that he was bullied and antagonized. Kids knew he was easy to set off. I understand that but I was surprised, because I always heard about how kind and compassionate Montessori children usually are.

About this time, I became aware he might have some special needs. At first some of the experts thought it was asperger's but later were less sure. He doesn't have a diagnosis. They also think he might be gifted but the schools here don't test this young. He's 5. Honestly some of his trouble was just that he was plain spoiled. He had a speech problem that made him hard to understand but he's come along way with that through therapy. Because of these things he qualified for a special needs preschool program that had special needs and typical children. I agonized over what to do but took him out of Montessori and put him in the other school. He did very well there. They have recommended he go to general edu for kindergarten. I'm set against public schools, espeically in this area. I don't see other private schools as being much different than public except for the tuition. I still love the Montessori method and have faith in it. I'd like to try again but have some concerns. My son doesn't like the idea of going back.

I had to go the school to get paper work and had to convince him to go along. Once there, he opted to stay outside. There were children and a teacher outside for after care. The teacher and I started talking, I explained some of our situation to her. She told me she would be the assistant in his class next year. She was very nice, offered to show him around and explore the classroom while it was empty. While in there , he showed me the "toy" farm and the animals and people. He told me that it was the only thing he liked to do there. He said the teacher yelled at him once for putting the horse on the roof, telling him it doesn't belong there. He said it was horrible because the kids told him he was mean and yelled at him for not following the rules. Hearing all of this really hurt my heart.

I don't know why they have to be so technical. He knows a real horse wouldn't walk on the roof. Why can't kids pretend in Montessori? He and I talked about it some more and I suggested we talk to his teacher about him being afraid to go back. He told me he's not afraid to go back anymore. I think he feels a little better about it but I know he still has some apprehension.

Should we try again? Should I talk to his teacher about his feelings? What can I do to help prepare him to be successful in that environment? Any ideas? I notice the children seem very self governed. They don't need an adult present to tell them what to do or make a good choice. I would like to foster that self discipline in my son. I think that would be a big help to him. I'm not sure how to go about it or what they do foster that? Any ideas or advice would be appreciated.

[philomom]

There's little pretend in Montessori. If you like pretend.. try a Waldorf setting. They are all about imagination and fairies and such. Montessori is for kids who are self motivated to do the "work" of learning and everyday tasking. Its not a fit for everyone.

[sapphire_chan]

Really, there's tons of pretend in Montessori, it's just the sort of pretend that kids actually come up with themselves about doing the things they see day to day.

That said, those teachers were awful. I don't think your son is in anyway to blame for not being able to cope with a classroom like you describe.

[philomom]

Originally Posted by sapphire_chan 

Really, there's tons of pretend in Montessori, it's just the sort of pretend that kids actually come up with themselves about doing the things they see day to day.

Okay, maybe I meant no fantasy.

[yarngoddess]

One thing to remember, while WE may love the idea of something (anything) it really comes down to what is right for our kid. If you love Montessori, and you really believe in their method- that's great! It seems like they may not be the right fit for your son, and given his bad experience with them in the past he may not allow them a real second choice.  Are YOU able to accept that they may not be the right school for your DS?  I would hate to have your DS put in a situation like he was before. That is really sad to me :( I hope now that he's a bit older and has his speech developed better, I hope that he does well in school there. Just keep a very close eye on the situation....

[physmom]

I agree with Sapphire_chan, it really doesn't sound like those teachers were a very good fit for your son and that specific Montessori school does NOT sound like a nurturing environment.  When you were there did you talk to the director about your problems?  Would he be going back to the same teacher in the same classroom?  What are the teachers in the older classrooms like?  Are there any other Montessori schools around that are better?

I'm pretty shocked that a teacher corrected him about that, I can't see a teacher at DD's doing something so public and humiliating like that. It makes me really sad to hear that.  I've seen first hand how teachers there deal with students who do something incorrectly.  They are VERY gentle with the student and show them the correct way to do things (for instance, putting away their materials after they are done).  At her school (since it's an all-day school too) they do have some pretend play toys there too and they let the kids play with them.  It's certainly not at the level of a Waldorf school but I've seen kids play with them or try out new things with the works and the teachers were understanding.  As long as they're not making a huge mess (DD has a tendency to dump all the pouring water stuff everywhere ), then they let the kids explore the materials but also gently will show them how to use them the correct way through example. 

In my opinion if you have to deal with the same teacher as before, run away, run FAR away!  If not, and the teacher seems like they really know the Montessori method well and believe in it, it can then be a positive experience.  I'd have to do a lot of class visitation, talking to the teacher/director in person to get a good sense of it first, though.  Also, kids don't learn how to be perfect Montessori/self-directed kids overnight!  It's a process but it should be done over time and respecting the child while they're doing it.  DD's not the best at putting her stuff away after she's done but they're working with her and she has been getting better but it certainly hasn't happened overnight! 

[ramama]

Montessori philosophy argues that adults should be careful with fantasy, not that fantasy is bad.  In the "real world" fantasy is often used to manipulate children.  That is what Montessori is against, not fantasy itself.  What we forget is that to us something may be fantasy, but it is not fantasy to a child, it is real.  Take Santa Claus for instance, a fantastical person used by adults to manipulate the behavior of children, but in whom the children actually believe.

There is no Montessori rule against horses on roofs.  Those teachers just suck.  Sorry if that's harsh, but it's true.  Unfortunately, there is not rule about who can use the Montessori name when forming a school.

[spedteacher30]

people keep saying in these threads, "that shouldn't happen in a REAL Montessori school" but there are so many of us who had terrible, terrible experiences at Montessori schools around the world, and the terrible experiences are very similar. I am not going to say that it is true of all Montessori schools, but it certainly seems like it is not an anomaly for it to happen. Personally, we pulled our quirky little guy out and put him in a program that is pretty heavy-handed and teacher-directed about social interactions, and he is much, much happier.

Initially, i wanted to try another Montessori school in our area, but they refused to accept him, saying they couldn't handle his needs. I was pissed off and hurt when they told me this for a variety of reasons, but now that we are out of the Montessori environment, we are all much happier and calmer.

I say follow your gut, and don't immediately write off the public schools without personal experience/observation about why you are doing so. I doubt your son will have a worse experience than what you described happened at your first school...

[physmom]

Originally Posted by spedteacher30 

people keep saying in these threads, "that shouldn't happen in a REAL Montessori school" but there are so many of us who had terrible, terrible experiences at Montessori schools around the world, and the terrible experiences are very similar. I am not going to say that it is true of all Montessori schools, but it certainly seems like it is not an anomaly for it to happen. Personally, we pulled our quirky little guy out and put him in a program that is pretty heavy-handed and teacher-directed about social interactions, and he is much, much happier.

Initially, i wanted to try another Montessori school in our area, but they refused to accept him, saying they couldn't handle his needs. I was pissed off and hurt when they told me this for a variety of reasons, but now that we are out of the Montessori environment, we are all much happier and calmer.

I say follow your gut, and don't immediately write off the public schools without personal experience/observation about why you are doing so. I doubt your son will have a worse experience than what you described happened at your first school...

I'm definitely NOT trying to trivialize your experience but it IS a real problem because Montessori is in no way a coined name.  Any school can use it and add some wooden works and declare themselves a Montessori school.  Add to it that many parents send their kids to Montessori schools because they think it will make their kids smarter rather than because they believe in the philosophy so some schools feel the need to push the students or force them to do things that is actually quite a bit against the Montessori philosophy. 

Another issue is that child-led learning goes against our culture quite a bit. We're raised to believe that ANYTHING is possible, we just have to work hard and we can get there.  Basically, kids are just empty slates and we can feed into them as much knowledge as possible and they will be successful.  Montessori says the opposite, kids already have their own preferences/instincts desires and also their own learning path.  They will reach milestones at their own pace as long as they have a nurturing environment and the right materials at hand.  It sounds simple but it's HARD to break away from your culture, especially if that's the school environment you, yourself were raised in.  Moreover, some teachers simply might not grasp the subtle difference between manipulation using fantasy and pretend play that ramama mentioned and instead implement strict NO PRETENDING RULES like the OP mentioned. 

I'm honestly not sure what the solution is.  I'm sort of weary of a central governing body of all Montessori schools but maybe it would help?  There certainly are schools that are accreditation through AMI/AMS in the US and hopefully that is some indication of their quality.  I, personally, can't say because we live abroad.  As a parent, though, one has to go into a school as a complete skeptic and ask any and every question under the sun (and even then you can end up with a horrible teacher and still have a poor experience ). Observations are also really important and being on good terms with the child's teacher so you know what's actually going on in the classroom. 

Honestly, you could apply the same logic to ANY school system.  You can point to the problems kids have at public schools and say they're all bad or ditto for Waldorf schools.  In the end it all boils down to looking at your local option and choosing what school is best for your family.  If your local Montessori school isn't a real one then don't go there, nobody is going to blame you for that!  I love the child-led philosophy and really want that for DD but if our local Montessori schools weren't really child-led or had incompetent teachers like what the OP described I certainly wouldn't send her there.  Instead I'd look for whatever local school DID provide the closest thing to a child-led education and supportive teachers. 

[spedteacher30]

my child was in an accredited school, so accreditation is not the solution. I recognize that it is an issue that any school can be "bad," but, I was shocked to discover how unwilling the Montessori schools we have experience in were both unwilling to engage in any sort of self-reflection or criticism, and how quick they were to assume that the issues were inherent to the child, and not a piece of the environment that needed changing--or, prior to that, that the issues were part of the environment of our home life, because there was no way the school/teachers could be contributing to it. Perhaps it is a subtle difference, but when I was teaching in a public school in the same town, we acknowledged that some of the issues for a specific child were a mismatch between school-life and child-personality/child-needs, even if we were powerless to change them. But, the immediate response to a child's struggle in our Montessori experience was "the child needs therapy." and, when asked for specific examples of things that they had tried in order to problem-solve a situation for a child, the school could not offer anything concrete.

I still love the pedagogy of Montessori, and wish more non-Montessori schools used it. But, I am pretty horrified at the social environment of Montessori schools I have experienced. Despite the stated emphasis on peace, grace and courtesy, the schools we encountered decidedly did NOT value any of them. And, from what I have read here, it is not an uncommon problem...

[rumsmyname]

No two classrooms are going to be the same regardless of being Montessori, accredited, same materials.  The dynamics of the teachers, the other children, and your own chilld mixed together create the actual environment.  Our family has experienced three different lower elementary classrooms within the same school with each quite different.  The result is vastly different abilities to meet the need of an individual child - the interaction of all the players is a very real aspect to how the class works.  Some classrooms aren't good fits given their personality and the individual child's personality.  Hopefully a school will mitigate this with placement decisions but its never going to be perfect.

It is a shame the school was unwilling to tell you your son just wasn't developmentally ready, wasn't a good fit or something.  Instead they understandably created bad feelings and the horrible horse on the roof problem.  Your son wasn't happy with it and he shouldn't be in the situation nor does the teacher sound like someone that is able to promote enthusiasm for the works.

[sapphire_chan]

Originally Posted by spedteacher30 

people keep saying in these threads, "that shouldn't happen in a REAL Montessori school" but there are so many of us who had terrible, terrible experiences at Montessori schools around the world, and the terrible experiences are very similar. I am not going to say that it is true of all Montessori schools, but it certainly seems like it is not an anomaly for it to happen.

It's true that it is really hard to find a actual good Montessori school. In another thread where someone is wondering if a public Montessori will be a good option, I have a half dozen questions based entirely on the bad experiences people have had with teachers (and schools) that were trying to do Montessori with a catalog and some rumors of what happens in a Montessori classroom.

And the attitude that "if this doesn't work for your child there must be something wrong with your child, you, or both" is pervasive in a lot of schools. Even in the public schools that are federally mandated to provide services to everyone, you get parents having to fight for IEPs over the protests of teachers who claim (in education talk) that the student is just lazy.

[PeacemongerMom]

Thank you all for your replies and encouragement. I appreciate it. I'm sorry I couldn't come back to this sooner. I did feel a lot of guilt, that somehow it was my parenting or my son that was to blame for his experience there. I still think that might play a role but certainly the teacher could have done more to make my son successful there and to make him feel more comfortable.  I should have mentioned in my original post that he did progress while there. It was slow progress, very slow and small  but in fairness, he was going in the right direction. This school is a " good" school or at least has that reputation. It has been around for more than 40 years. During that time it has grown tremendously. It started out as a primary, then expanded to elementary, then expanded to multiple elementary classes, and now is building an addition for more expansion. All the teachers are AMI certified, the assistants aren't certified.

I have heard that it is a very hard line AMI school in the Italian tradition. Which is said to be cold. It's all about the environment and the teacher is actually trained to keep her personality out of it. I've heard that AMS schools tend to be warmer and more nurturing and American parents often prefer them. I don't know how accurate that is. This school doesn't even have a playground, they have a garden and animals, guinea pigs, rabbits, chickens, a dog and their latest addition is ...wild turkeys!  It's lovely, one would think it's a child's paradise. Then I go back to thinking what is wrong with my son! I can't help but think it sometimes.

I feel that since I better know what to expect this time, I can better prepare my son. There is another Montessori school very close by. It's amazing that we have two in this town, but the second one is an off shoot of the first. One of the teachers left and started her own school. I visited that one too but didn't love it as much as the one my son went too. The general consensus in the area is the one my son went to, has the edge. I agree, I must be careful that this is what is best for my son and not just what I want. I just want to do everything I can to prepare him to be successful there and give it a try.

[MattBronsil]

Originally Posted by spedteacher30 

people keep saying in these threads, "that shouldn't happen in a REAL Montessori school" but there are so many of us who had terrible, terrible experiences at Montessori schools around the world, and the terrible experiences are very similar. I am not going to say that it is true of all Montessori schools, but it certainly seems like it is not an anomaly for it to happen.

I LOVE hamburgers.  Really, I do.  I actually live in the apartment complex I live in primarily because it's a block away from the only burger joint in town.  (That and I see no real reason to move.  But if I had to move, that would be one thing I miss).

At the same time, I know people in Taiwan that hate hamburgers.  Why?  Because McDonald's doesn't make them well. 

Imagine if your only experience of something is from people that don't do things the correct way, as seems to be the case in this example.  Imagine if:

--Every beer you ever had was poured poorly and, as a result, you hate beer.

--Every book you ever read was poorly written and, as a result, you hate books.

--Every car you ever bought was a lemon and, as a result, you hate cars.

I'm not saying you HATE Montessori.  I'm just drawing examples of how having the experience of the bad examples of something taints our perception of it.

[sapphire_chan]

Part of it is not having anyone double-checking that schools that use the Montessori name are in fact Montessori, and that teachers with Montessori certification are actually following that teaching, etc, etc.

But then, other school methods do have those sorts of systems in place and also have a huge rate of failing to meet their ideals. (e.g. 90% of the "Learning At School" posts, and the "Life After Waldorf" thread in Personal Growth.)

[MattBronsil]

Even then you have a problem. So ... Someone would walk into a school, look at it, and say, "You have no materials, your kids sit in desks all day, and they're not allowed to talk. Why are you calling yourself Montessori?"
"Because the name sells."

--End of discussion. What can you say after that?

[sapphire_chan]

Originally Posted by MattBronsil 

Even then you have a problem. So ... Someone would walk into a school, look at it, and say, "You have no materials, your kids sit in desks all day, and they're not allowed to talk. Why are you calling yourself Montessori?"
"Because the name sells."

--End of discussion. What can you say after that?

Since it would be an accrediting body walking in:"Your school doesn't get to say that you're accredited in your advertising materials, but the other 3 places in town do get to say that. Also your school isn't going on our list of Montessori schools, and those other schools are. 'Montessori' isn't copy protected, but our backing IS."

But I don't actually support the creation of such a body, because of 2 reasons. First, and most important, it would either have to have a zillion rules about what constitutes a harmful adherence to the 'rules' of Montessori and what constitutes a beneficial expansion of those 'rules' or would have to rely entirely on the judgments of the inspectors. Second, there would be a  chance, however small, that the teacher who got into a power struggle with a 3 year old over doing writing works would end up as an inspector.

[MattBronsil]

But there are already accrediting bodies...and that's what they do for schools that want to get accredited.

[sapphire_chan]

Really? Well then, second question, are these schools with incompetent worse-than-useless teachers are accredited? And if they are, how would a parent go about reporting them to the accrediting board so that over time a history of problems could be recorded and affect how often the school has to re-certify?

[spedteacher30]

I have actually done a fair amount of processing of our experience, and I certainly understand that no school/pedagogy is immune to the tendencies to pathologize the child instead of the environment or the adults. It is one of the reasons I left teaching--I was heartsick over the role special education is often forced to play in public schools.

But, when a philosophy espouses to "follow the child" and strives to have teachers engage in extensive observation and reflection, it feels especially dissonant for the knee-jerk reaction to be "get your child therapy." and, when you take your child to the various types of therapists the school recommends, it is especially discouraging to be told that you need to see the specific therapist they recommend.

I don't think the issue is with Montessori as a pedagogy or educational philosophy, but I do think that an inordinate number of people I have encountered have had very negative experiences with Montessori schools. And, because of the frequently stated belief that children need the opportunity to have school be a respected separate sphere from home/family life, combined with the fact that Montessori is still a not-well-understood philosophy, it is incumbent upon the teachers to be overly sensitive to the pitfall of pathologizing the child. Even as alarm bells were beginning to ring in our heads, we were being told to respect our child's need for autonomy and so we didn't intervene soon enough. I own that, but it is very sad to me that the lesson we learned was to not trust the adults around our child. We tried a second Montessori school for a trial, and our child was actually quite successful, but we weren't offered a spot due to political ties between the two schools. I'm OK with that too--it's a small town and they can't poach each others students without a lot of hard feelings.

I have a lot of respect for the pedagogy, and I wish we'd been able to find a school that fit for our child. but, the ones in our town (we have 4--with about a dozen primary classrooms between the bunch of them) are not that fit for us. I wish more of the pedagogy were incorporated into typical teacher training, and that more teachers had the background in observing children and tailoring their instruction so precisely.

ETA: Sapphire, I initially tried to file a complaint with the accreditation group last summer, but the group's website was not particularly user-friendly in figuring out how to do it. Also, my partner convinced me that I needed to look forward, not backward, and that a formal complaint wouldn't bring me closure, just a sense of revenge.