The Horse Doesn't Go on the Roof and other concerns - Page 2

[physmom]

Originally Posted by spedteacher30 

ETA: Sapphire, I initially tried to file a complaint with the accreditation group last summer, but the group's website was not particularly user-friendly in figuring out how to do it. Also, my partner convinced me that I needed to look forward, not backward, and that a formal complaint wouldn't bring me closure, just a sense of revenge.

Just my two cents here (and if you don't want to revisit this topic I totally understand) but it could actually be very helpful to other students who are similar to your child if you do put in a formal complaint.  Oh, and that really stinks about the other school not accepting him... is it possible that you could try again at a latter date?

One thing I wanted to touch on about a what you posted before, though, is i wonder if part of the large number of bad experiences while reading this site is not a self-selected group so you are naturally going to have parents who have a complaint (and specifically seek out a Montessori board to figure out the problem) or are very enthusiastic about Montessori or ones who are in the process of still looking for a school (and they might have a very short-lived experience here if they find a good school quickly).  However, I'd guess parents that are generally happy with their child's schools probably aren't going to make a ton of posts about how happy they are all the time. 

[sapphire_chan]

Off-topic,

I thought of this thread yesterday when dd put a cow on the roof of a barn at the cognitive development lab's play area. The psychology students were amused.

[CatsCradle]

I don't post a lot in the Montessori forum because I feel like I'm often repeating myself, and frankly, I'm bored with my own opinions!

That being said, OP, if what you described happened in my DD's Montessori, I'd be truly cynical.  We really took a shot in the dark when we placed DD in her Montessori school three years ago.  The only thing that I was really aware of was the Montessori philosophy in general, and we really didn't have a handle on how DD's particular school operated.  I have never seen a situation, however, where my DD or others were discouraged from experimentation and play.  True, they have certain materials that they work with but child-led use of those materials is always encouraged.  DD goes full-time to a school where Montessori work is done in the mornings and the rest of the day is spent on creative play, music, art and just plain play.  I really do think it comes down to the school itself and the teacher dynamic.  I understand that DD's teachers were all trained in India (where apparently the Montessori philosophy is highly valued) (maybe Matt Bronsil can explain why).  There is another Montessori school in our neighborhood and we chose not to send DD there because it just didn't have the right vibe.  It seemed more like a preschool which had adopted some Montessori materials.  I didn't connect with the teachers there for some reason either. 

I also think the personality of the child and how they work/play and connect to others plays a huge role.  I agree with PPs that sometimes a certain educational setting may seem like a good idea, but if it is not working for your child then you have to re-evaluate.  My own DD is a very focused child (not bragging - she is just able to get involved with a project and spend a lot of time with it).  The Montessori work is actually very appropriate for her personality type.  Not saying that Montessori can't work for many types of child personalities, but I think you really have to take a hard look at how your child learns and interacts and work from that, rather than trying to fit the child to the method.  Whether the "method" is being employed properly is also a determining factor.

[freestylemama]

Originally Posted by spedteacher30 

people keep saying in these threads, "that shouldn't happen in a REAL Montessori school" but there are so many of us who had terrible, terrible experiences at Montessori schools around the world, and the terrible experiences are very similar. I am not going to say that it is true of all Montessori schools, but it certainly seems like it is not an anomaly for it to happen. Personally, we pulled our quirky little guy out and put him in a program that is pretty heavy-handed and teacher-directed about social interactions, and he is much, much happier.

Initially, i wanted to try another Montessori school in our area, but they refused to accept him, saying they couldn't handle his needs. I was pissed off and hurt when they told me this for a variety of reasons, but now that we are out of the Montessori environment, we are all much happier and calmer.

I say follow your gut, and don't immediately write off the public schools without personal experience/observation about why you are doing so. I doubt your son will have a worse experience than what you described happened at your first school...

I agree so much with this.  We had a terrible experience at a Montessori.  We were told many different times that if we parented differently and if DD had more discipline that M would work beautifully.  I was convinced that I was a failure as a mother- DH and I were practically killing ourselves to be the perfect M parents because we bought into all of the dogma about it being the be all and end all for our child.  It was such a frustrating process.  Ultimately, we felt like we were jamming a square peg into a circle hole.  We switched her to a play based school and it was an excellent decision for all of us. 

I think that M can work beautifully for some children and families but it can be very bad for others.  My DD is very creative and social and very much "dances to her own beat'.   We're pretty laid back and have pretty much let her do what she wants as long as nothing is ruined and no one gets hurt.  DD struggled so much with the stringency of Montessori- she didn't understand or accept that most of the materials were off limits to her but available to older children.  She was frustrated that she couldn't play with the materials.  Ultimately, she acted out and became angry and disruptive and we (finally!) realized that she needed to get out of the environment.  She was also not treated well by many of the older children and the teacher was completely dismissive about my concerns about her social development.  I could go on and on, but I'll just say that I'm so incredibly relieved to read about other people having similar experiences.  I truly internalized ours and felt that there was something wrong with us. I no longer believe that and caution other people to truly look at their child's personality and their family's dynamic before jumping into a Montessori environment.

[MattBronsil]

Originally Posted by sapphire_chan 

Really? Well then, second question, are these schools with incompetent worse-than-useless teachers are accredited? And if they are, how would a parent go about reporting them to the accrediting board so that over time a history of problems could be recorded and affect how often the school has to re-certify?

The question is difficult to answer because of what's out there.  Even if you look at AMS and AMI, there are a few different levels of accreditation. 
And that's just the tip of the ice berg for much of this situation.

With full accreditation with AMS, AMI, and MACTE, I believe it requires a review every few years.  I don't fully know the specifics and never bothered to really look into it.  I don't know what the Montessori Foundation requires, but started to look into that a few years ago when I was interested in starting a school in Taiwan until I realized the FULL start up costs of a school in Taiwan.  (About $1,000,000 Taiwan Dollars just to have on reserve for a small business, not to mention legal issues of a foreigner teaching kindergarten).  I soon forgot about that quickly. :)

That's just a run down on the bigger organizations that are more widely recognized.

Then you have smaller organizations that really have nothing to do with Montessori.  IMS, for example, is an organization that is run by a guy who has ideas that totally conflict with Montessori in certain points. 

Then we figure in school costs.  I've never worked for a school that was fully accredited through AMS, but opted for the Affiliation status.  The cost was never justifiable.  Still, the teachers were fantastic.  That affiliation status sets up a few dynamic problems.  It sets up a good set of standards, but also has a lot of flexibility to deviate from anything Montessori.  Still, a well run school would rather not charge the parents a large percentage more per year just so they can claim "Accreditation" status.

So who does one complain to when things do not seem right?  I don't know... :)  I say first figure out if they are a part of any Montessori group.  Then contact them and ask.  Still, it's not like AMS or AMI have boatloads of money or time to travel out of town and visit a school when parents start complaining.  Even if they did, I doubt they would lose a WHOLE lot of business if they weren't affiliated with any major Montessori organization.  There seem to be plenty of Montessori schools out there that just say they're Montessori just because they can.  They're surviving, too.

If I were in charge of taking complaints like this and heard the comment about the horse on the roof, my honest initial reaction would be to wonder what was really said, what the context was, and how it was perceived by the child and meant by the adult.  I could imagine myself walking past a child who is working on the farm, the child saying, "Matt, look!  The horse is on the roof" and replying with a laugh, saying, "I've never seen a horse on a roof.  That doesn't go there," thinking the child took it to be an agreement of the silliness, but he took it to mean I said he did something wrong.  Yes....that's often how life happens in the classroom. :-)

I can also imagine a teacher that would say that to somehow prove some odd point....God knows there are enough teachers like that in the world.

[sapphire_chan]

Yeah, I could definitely see that comment being meant in two ways.  I'm assuming that the horse comment was mean because that's the overall impression the OP has of the teacher. If her ds had had a teacher like you, she probably would've gone straight to the teacher "my kid says you yelled at him about putting a horse on a roof, what's up?" before ever posting about it here.

As for the accreditation issue, it sounds like there are ways to become an accredited Montessori school, but there is no real requirement to do so. The context I'm familiar with for accreditation is the ABET accreditation for engineering and technology  colleges, in that case, if they fail to meet the standards they aren't allowed to issue degrees. Without that sort of power, the accreditation is more useful to parents as a way of ranking schools before going to look at them.

[MattBronsil]

There are laws in each state that license daycares...that's about as high up as it gets for requirements. 

Originally Posted by sapphire_chan 

Yeah, I could definitely see that comment being meant in two ways.  I'm assuming that the horse comment was mean because that's the overall impression the OP has of the teacher. If her ds had had a teacher like you, she probably would've gone straight to the teacher "my kid says you yelled at him about putting a horse on a roof, what's up?" before ever posting about it here.

As for the accreditation issue, it sounds like there are ways to become an accredited Montessori school, but there is no real requirement to do so. The context I'm familiar with for accreditation is the ABET accreditation for engineering and technology  colleges, in that case, if they fail to meet the standards they aren't allowed to issue degrees. Without that sort of power, the accreditation is more useful to parents as a way of ranking schools before going to look at them.