How? What?

[Juliacat]

We are not pregnant yet and we are sort of hoping for a girl when we do get pregnant, but I'm thinking ahead anyway.

If we have a boy, I do not want him to be circumcised.

My sweetie is circumcised and is just fine in bed. To complicate matters, I have an ex who was intact and was sexually dysfunctional. That kind of colors my experience of how circumcision affects sexual performance.

My sweetie is all in favor of circumcision. He is usually a rational person, but this is one issue he's so emotional about that he refuses to listen to reason. "What if he gets to be twenty years old and can't get a girl to go out with him because he's got cheese in his ****?"

I asked my sweetie's parents, who were present at his circumcision. His father said it was fine and he would definitely recommend it. His mother said it wasn't that bad, but it was traumatic and she wouldn't do it again if she had another son.

I'm lucky I have a lot of time to do this, but how do I convince my sweetie that we should leave our future son intact? Has anyone else had to handle this? Also, has anyone else been with a sexually dysfunctional but intact man?

I just can't believe that people think it's okay to cut body parts off babies!

[Sarah]

Juile- men don't have any more "cheese" on their intact penis than women do in their vagina. is your sweetie afraid that if you have a girl that guys are going to throw rocks at her because she has a cheesy pussy? You can see how silly that argument is.

I will admit I have also had a not very satisfying sexual encounter (a one night stand) with an intact man that I totally HATED (the encounter not the man). There was something about him that just made my skin crawl once we were together in bed that was not evident before. He was very wrapped up in his thing and not very attentive to me, his body was very pasty and he was covered in a kind of cold clammy sweat... not sexy sweat. His penis was pretty small and he was not very good at compensating for his lack in the size department- expecially in his self centered lovemaking technique. I got up in the morning and snuck out of his house. YUCH- one of the few sexual regrets of my life. If you noticed- NONE of my complaints about that guy had ANYTHING to do with the fact that he was intact and he could just have well been a circumcised guy- he was just a flat out lousy lover! I had no feelings for him and should not have gone to bed with him, and there was a total lack of chemistry.

On the other hand I had a very nice sexual experience with a circumcised guy who unfortunatly had a micro penis (the size of one joint of your thumb) he was a glorious lover because he did not depend on his penis to do all the work for him. Sadly some jerk had circumcised him and removed the most errogenous tissue from what penis he did have. If he had his whole penis I think I could have pleasured him to a much greater degree because of the variety of feelings that an itact penis can produce for it's owner... unfortunatly he was left with only typical stroking options which is very hard to do when there is nothing to stroke.


I have slept with so many men in my life that I have encountered all sorts of variations- in size, technique, unusual tastes, race, nationality, type of relationship... and I know how to judge the difference between the equipment and the situation.

There have been several men in my past who had what I would think of as sexual disfunction. On guy flat out could not get it up. he was probably the most textbook "perfect stud muffin" you could imagine- (not my type actually- but someone's) a tall blond 17 year old high school quarterback- (circumcised) call it a case of cold feet or whatever- his unit was not co-operating with him. Am I going to go so far as to call him impotent? No! Certainly not- and not at his age either- inexperienced maybe. Never got to find out if time would erectify the situation because he avoided me big time after that. I think he was afraid that I might gossip to the other girls about it or something.

One other man was an older guy and an alcoholic. He happened to be the driver of the hitch of the Budwiser Clydesdales (circumcised)- so yes, in his case the job did have it's perks- free beer and horse girls. He could get it up fine- but his penis appeared to give him no pleasure what so ever. I could have been sucking on the bedpost for all it seemed to do for him. He pumped at me for hours literally until I wanted to cry I was so raw- yet he was absolutly not anywhere near having any climax himself- and ME NEITHER! He finally just got exhaused and rolled over and left me be. he was circumcised, and as I said- older. I believe that alchohl probably played a large factor in his "numbness" but from testimonies of older men who have sought out foreskin restoration- a lack of sensation and a difficulty with orgasms is sometimes encountered progressivly with age and keretinization.

The older intact men I had sex with did not act this way at all and were very sensitive to fine touch and gentle stinulation. They seem to have a much finer control of their orgasms. Sometimes I get the feeling that a circumcised man is either activly seeking his orgasm, or working hard to avoid it... but the intact men seemed to be the ones who had the freedom to simply ramble without worrying if they would get their orgasm or if it would get them... It was like having a picnic packed in the trunk- they knew whenever we got hungry- we could just pull over and get it. rather than having to depend on a interstate rest area where you had to stop wether you were ready for lunch or not. Because of this ability to not have to focus so intently on controling their own feelings, the intact lovers seemed more able to focus on my feelings and pleasure. They usually enjoy foreplay more and do it more, can have sex longer and with less friction and abrasion to me, and when they do have an orgasm- it is more of an explosion than a release. For a long time I thought that the orgasms of my Italian lovers were a cultural thing- that Italian men make more noise and act more "femenine" when climaxing, just like they use their hands when they talk- I figured it was an Italian thing. It was not until I discovered that British men also do that that I finally realized that the rapture was not a cultural manifestation, but a different reality of intact orgasm over circumcised orgasm. The anatomy of the frenulum which is often destroyed in circumcision is called the "love nerve" in France. It is the orgasm control center. without the frenulum at the tip of the penis guiding and reporting on the progress- a circumcised penis is kind of driving into the dark- when it hits the orgasm it knows it's there.

Anyway- I'm sorry for going into so many gory details- but if it helps you any- a great lover is a great lover- no matter what... but no lover was ever improved on by having a huge portion of their sexual anatomy removed forcefully from their body at birth. Get my drift?


Love Sarah

[Juliacat]

Wow--THANK YOU, SARAH!

I really appreciate all of the gory details in your reply! Thanks!

My intact ex, besides being emotionally and sexually abusive, couldn't have an orgasm except by self-stimulation. Basically, we'd have intercourse until I couldn't stand the searing pain any more (he was too big for me), then I'd try stimulating him until both my arms were so sore I couldn't stand that any more either, then he'd help himself. The whole process took at least 45 minutes, sometimes as long as an hour and a half.

He also tasted terrible--so that actually is a valid concern for me when I have a son.

Since I'm engaged to a circumcised man (and he is wonderful wonderful wonderful in every way), my best friend has promised me that she will try her best to have sex with at least one intact man who ISN'T a sociopath so that we can do a real comparison. Hey, that's what friends are for right?

I like that you've had so much experience that you actually know what you're talking about. I've only been with 4 guys : and I wish I had a more representative population!

I actually did point out to my sweetie that he's not afraid of my vagina so why should a girl be afraid of an intact penis. He actually admitted I was right, but refused to change his opinion (that our son wouldn't be able to get any) at all! I added that I love HIM no matter what and that our intact son would probably have a wonderful personality and someone would love him just like I love my sweetie. My sweetie then said, "You're one in a million. Most girls aren't like you." I asked, "Wouldn't you want our son to have one in a million, too?" and then he accused me of trying to control our son's sex life.

I think this is the one issue he's so emotional about that there is absolutely no way to reason him out of it. I think I may have to wait until after we have the kid and say, "Look at his perfect little body, how can we hurt him?" and try to appeal to his very strong sense of compassion and empathy. Or maybe make him watch a circumcision. Or just hold our son and scream bloody murder if anyone tries to take him from me. Or something.

[Sara29]

When the issue comes up with my dh(who is for circ based on religious/social reasons-Turkish) I will hopefully be able to convince him to allow our son to make the decision on his on when he is a teen.
Yes,people tell me that getting circed when older is far worse...but I really don't see a difference.I think for an infant it is just as bad.I mean imagine peeing on an open wound 5+ times a day for weks.I know it hurt me A LOT after giving birth when urine touched any minor tear I had!
Good luck whatever route you go!
sara

[oceanbaby]

My dh was in favor of circumcision until our ds was 1 day old and ready for his appointment. He looked at the innocent, trusting, sleeping babe in his arms and couldn't go through with it. It was one of the best decisions we ever made.

There is a lot of good info on here about why not to circumcise. Read the posts on this board titled "From a Nurse" or something like that. It will make you cry.

[Sarah]

Sara-

Apparently in Turkey it is normal for them to wait a bit longer than the USA standard of two days before circumcising- they say 2-10 years old. Anyway- here is an article that I recently was reading that you may find interesting because it targeted specificaly Turkish boys who were circumcised a little older.

http://www.cirp.org/library/psych/cansever/
This study took twelve boys and interviewed them in various psychoanalytical ways (the purpose of the study was to evaluate the effect of circumcising a child durign Freud's ages dominated by castration anxiety) The response of one child in his pre- and post op interview is expecially upsetting to me. The child was asked to draw a person and then asked what three wishes that person has-

"One very disturbed child expressed blatant oral aggressive drives. His preoperative response was 'find clothes, and a human being each day and talk to him. (Q: Why?) So that he can learn the best ideas and apply them in life.' In the post operative testing, this child wished 'Treasure, a very large pot, and to catch people so he can cook them in the pot and devour them.' The same child also linked the costumes in the 'trunk' item with extreme oral aggressive wishes, followinnng the circumcision. He dressed his hero in 'terrible clothes' and sent him off 'to eat little children up'."

I also think that reading what some of what Alice Miller has to say should enlighten you the the very large factors that are at play- not culture, not religion... but very deep emotional trauma and coping mechanisms. Do you know what age your husband was when he was circumcised?
Her book about healing Childhood trauma is one on my list that I need to get!

An Excerpt from Breaking Down the Wall

"By repressing not only the pain but also their anger and desire for revenge, they have banished consciousness, even idealizing the custom. Today, as a result of their repression, they justify the procedure as harmless and necessary. They cannot recall their repressed anger and have never grieved what happened to them. Consequently, they inflict the same ordeal on their children without wishing to acknowledge what they're doing to them."

Here is an article from a different writing of hers.
http://www.cirp.org/library/psych/miller1/

I know that this is prety heavy stuff- but wanitng to cut the genitals of a child is also a very big deal, and one that I do not think should be glossed over as simply "cultural" In this case I believe there are entire cultures who are perpetuating identicals very personal abuses on the next generation.

Of course this is the type of thing that no victim willingly takes on if they have it sucessfully buried. It will only become an issue for your husband if you can spare your child the trauma and prove to him that what was done to him was reprehensible and unjustified... and most importantly- something that agood parent does NOT need to allow. This will bring up in him a lot of confusion and anger because it will force him to reconsider what was done to him, and what his parents made him endure.

My husband went through this as well- but thankfully he got over it and I would not knuckle to protecting a victim's denial by making a new one.

Love Sarah

[Sara29]

Thank you for your post Sarah.As always very enlightening.I think my dh and his fraternal twin brother were around the age of 5-ish when they were circed.When I took my dd to Turkey when she was 14mo so she and I could meet the family(dh could not leave US) my MIL showed me the circ photo album.I am hoping they would give it to dh,but it belongs to his brother too.Maybe she will bring it in July when they visit.I don't want to ask because I don't feel ready to *discuss* this issue with dh.But I think seeing the pictures might(perhaps it would do the reverse) help him see how horrid an act it was.I mean I try to imagine doing the same to my dd.Having people hold her down while a crowd watches on as a person cuts her up.I am sure he would be horrified to do that,so why any different for a boy???

I have pretty much read everything on circ/turk issues online.Will probably create a folder of info.My dh is not into researching or reading,so I will probably have to read it to him.If my son wants to do it when he is an adult I will support him,though I don't support circ.
I can just imagine the pressure my in-laws will give.They hate my parenting choices,and the circ issue is an ultimate one.Oh well.I will not budge on the issue.Thanks again for the info.
sara

[Juliacat]

still worried

He was circumcised as a baby. He was born at home with just his parents, but they took him to get circumcised when he was a few days old.

I've talked to both of them about it. His father said, "It didn't really hurt him. He just looked surprised." His mother said, "He cried. It was traumatic. I wouldn't do it again if I had another son."

He can't possibly want to hurt his own child that badly...? v

[AnnMarie]

Originally posted by Sarah
The older intact men I had sex with did not act this way at all and were very sensitive to fine touch and gentle stinulation. They seem to have a much finer control of their orgasms. Sometimes I get the feeling that a circumcised man is either activly seeking his orgasm, or working hard to avoid it... but the intact men seemed to be the ones who had the freedom to simply ramble without worrying if they would get their orgasm or if it would get them... ......They usually enjoy foreplay more and do it more, can have sex longer and with less friction and abrasion to me, and when they do have an orgasm- it is more of an explosion than a release.

I've had the same experience with intact men.


On the other side, all but one of the circed guys I was with had some sort of problem with his penis... pain, curvature, premature. The only one that didn't have this problem took forever to finish. So, I guess they all had problems.

[Frankly Speaking]

The Sensitivity Issue

Some have called me weird to my face that I am one of the men restoring my foreskin. However, at the age of 47 I was having trouble achieving an erection and keeping it and was having trouble achieving an orgasm. Restoration looked like a worth while gamble and if it didn't work, well, so what?

I'll not go into a lot of the benefits but I no longer have any problems except: Before, during oral sex I kept telling my girlfriend Harder! Harder! Now I ask her if she is trying to take all of the skin off. She tells me she is just barely touching it! Sometimes I think white woman lies just to watch me jump!




Some people are presumed to be idiots.
Others open their mouth and remove all doubt.

[Xenogenesis]

Disclaimer: Yes I know this is an old thread but was wanting to resurrect some of the ideas expressed here

Originally posted by Sarah
An Excerpt from Breaking Down the Wall

"By repressing not only the pain but also their anger and desire for revenge, they have banished consciousness, even idealizing the custom. Today, as a result of their repression, they justify the procedure as harmless and necessary. They cannot recall their repressed anger and have never grieved what happened to them. Consequently, they inflict the same ordeal on their children without wishing to acknowledge what they're doing to them."

Here is an article from a different writing of hers.
http://www.cirp.org/library/psych/miller1/

Sounds an awful lot like abuse victims ....

[gurumama]

So Juliacat, what happened?