Not sure whether to continue homeschooling my Aspie - Page 2

[BetsyNY]

There IS motivation at a job--the motivation to get paid, if nothing else, and other motivations which may or may not apply--the desire for praise, personal fulfillment, feelings of purpose and involvement...don't think that if a person doesn't "do" school they'll never learn how to be responsible. 

I know you're not interested in unschooling--and I'm not advocating it for your family--but--it kinda sounds like that's what you're doing. I don't know any unschooler that does *no* classes, and you say you haven't pushed academics...at any rate, good luck with whatever you choose.

[AllyRae]

Make sure the montessori approach still works for your son.  We have a son with aspergers...he did wonderfully from preschool through kindergarten in his montessori school.  He excelled and thrived--it was the *perfect* environment for him, socially and academically.  But then he went to 1st grade at that same montessori school and it fell apart.  He was being bullied all of the time and the whole montessori approach to discipline wasn't keeping the bullies from bullying him.  And the group lessons were something he really really struggled with.  In Children's House, the lessons are short and sweet...in the lower elementary, the lessons can go on quite a while and have a whole lot of abstract (and concrete for that matter) facts.  He is not a verbal learner and he really really struggled.  Sometimes, once he got to the work, he could figure it out, but sometimes not.  There is a huge difference between Children's House work and lower elementary--in LE, it's not so much trial and error...it's a lot of reading and listening and understanding and facts, especially with history and the other 'non-tangible' subjects.  And my son just couldn't learn that way.  So, he became disruptive and aggressive and started hating school.  

So now, we are pulling him out.  The perfect environment for him as a toddler/preschooler/kindergartener turned out to be a very poor match for him as a 1st grader...  So make sure that he can still learn the way lower elementary works...it's not the same as Children's House.  We are not doing unschooling at all (that would be a disaster for him!)...he will be doing a very structured type of homeschooling, but I carefully choose each piece of curriculum to match his learning style.  It's all very eclectic and hands on and designed for children who learn via doing.

[RiverTam]

I have a child with Mixed Expressive Receptive Language Disorder and this was our experience In Montessori, too. DS did really, really well in Primary, but really struggled in Lower Elementary. He also struggled with group lessons and refused to join them. He was disruptive in class. We've stuck with it for awhile because his psychologist strongly recommended it. First year was a mess, second year was improving, third year was a mess. We're at the end of the Lower El cycle now and we're not returning for Upper El.

Originally Posted by AllyRae 

Make sure the montessori approach still works for your son.  We have a son with aspergers...he did wonderfully from preschool through kindergarten in his montessori school.  He excelled and thrived--it was the *perfect* environment for him, socially and academically.  But then he went to 1st grade at that same montessori school and it fell apart.  He was being bullied all of the time and the whole montessori approach to discipline wasn't keeping the bullies from bullying him.  And the group lessons were something he really really struggled with.  In Children's House, the lessons are short and sweet...in the lower elementary, the lessons can go on quite a while and have a whole lot of abstract (and concrete for that matter) facts.  He is not a verbal learner and he really really struggled.  Sometimes, once he got to the work, he could figure it out, but sometimes not.  There is a huge difference between Children's House work and lower elementary--in LE, it's not so much trial and error...it's a lot of reading and listening and understanding and facts, especially with history and the other 'non-tangible' subjects.  And my son just couldn't learn that way.  So, he became disruptive and aggressive and started hating school.  

So now, we are pulling him out.  The perfect environment for him as a toddler/preschooler/kindergartener turned out to be a very poor match for him as a 1st grader...  So make sure that he can still learn the way lower elementary works...it's not the same as Children's House.  We are not doing unschooling at all (that would be a disaster for him!)...he will be doing a very structured type of homeschooling, but I carefully choose each piece of curriculum to match his learning style.  It's all very eclectic and hands on and designed for children who learn via doing.

[heatherdeg]

Originally Posted by BetsyNY 

There IS motivation at a job--the motivation to get paid, if nothing else, and other motivations which may or may not apply--the desire for praise, personal fulfillment, feelings of purpose and involvement...don't think that if a person doesn't "do" school they'll never learn how to be responsible. 

  Yeah, I no longer post here often & I don't post a ton in LAHAB, but I'm not one of "those" parents who thinks that some things can only be learned in a school.  I was kind of trying to ask you, as someone with Asperger's (which may not present even remotely like my son's) overcome the hyperfocus of your personal interests or the distraction of thinking about them to get your work done?  As an adult, yes--there is paying the bills to live your life.  I don't see my son getting personal fulfillment out of these things and he's not really moved by feelings of purpose or involvement.  I'm not sure that's so much an Aspie thing as a 7yo thing, but I really DON'T know.  He's not really moved by praise, either.
 

Originally Posted by BetsyNY 

I know you're not interested in unschooling--and I'm not advocating it for your family--but--it kinda sounds like that's what you're doing. I don't know any unschooler that does *no* classes, and you say you haven't pushed academics...at any rate, good luck with whatever you choose.

And to that end, this is kind of my issue: because we are implementing curriculum this year, I'm concerned about all of this.  He's HAD some educational stuff, but it's been fun.  Next year, I will attempt to make it enjoyable and he has had a hand in choosing some of the stuff he's learning, but there will be things he's learning that he will have no choice in.  To me, that's not unschooling.  I know that some unschoolers actually use curriculum--they just allow the child to choose the direction of coursework and they use curriculum suited to that choice; and they vary on whether they force them to follow it through to the end.  I'm not sure how you define "unschool" and it's a broad term.  I just really meant that he doesn't have complete control over his studies.

AllyRae--that was another consideration.  Ours was the opposite: Montessori really did nothing for him in the Children's House level.  So I was already hesitant at this age.  At this point, he'll be home next year with Montessori as a backup and I'm researching a backup beyond that (although I really think that's overdoing it)

[Piglet68]

I've just learned that my two unschooled kids are classic Aspies and we're on our way to an official diagnosis. The first book I picked up was Tony Attwood's "Complete Guide to Aspergers". From a homeschooler's perspective, I cannot tell you how relieved I was that a good 50% of that book did not apply to my kids simply because they have never gone to school.

The bullying, the teasing, the desire to "be like the other kids", the anxiety around doing or saying something that will result in teasing or ostracizing...none of these things have happened to my children. Attwood goes on to describe the mental health issues such as anxiety and depression that can arise - not do to the AS itself, but the consequences of being an AS kid in school. I think these are important things to consider. 

We are very fortunate to be in Canada, where health care isn't the financial nightmare it is in the US, so income does not have to be a barrier to good services whether your kid is in school or not. I understand that in the US, for some people, school might be the only way to access services for their kids, in which case there may be little choice. 

We are also lucky to be in a provincial homelearning program that provides funding for special needs kids so we can choose and get the right therapy for our child. If we were in school, that money would be given to the school and they would decide how it would be spent. So not only do we get support, but we also get funds. I would not want to have to do all this myself, but my children are pretty high functioning except for specific social situations, so it's not too hard. I understand many parents have it much tougher, and would definitely benefit from some support and "time off". Is that an option for you? Can you find programs for your kids that would give you a break, provide them with support, but without putting them in school?

Ultimately you know your child best, and your own internal resources best. A wise friend told me "If you've met one Asperger's kid, you've met ONE asperger's kid". They are all different, and only you can truly decide what is best for your child and family. hugs!

[AllyRae]

Originally Posted by Piglet68 

The bullying, the teasing, the desire to "be like the other kids", the anxiety around doing or saying something that will result in teasing or ostracizing...none of these things have happened to my children. Attwood goes on to describe the mental health issues such as anxiety and depression that can arise - not do to the AS itself, but the consequences of being an AS kid in school. I think these are important things to consider.

Unfortunately, all of those things can happen outside of school.  Whenever you are in the presence of other children, you will have the potential for all of these things.  So, if your child is in sports, scouts, or even a neighborhood group of friends, there is the potential for teasing, bullying, and trying to fit in unfortunately.

And to the OP...I just had an experience that confirmed why we pulled him out of his Montessori.  When my ds was in Children's House, he was top of the class, excellent at math, spelling, science, etc.  His academic testing that was routinely done by his therapist showed absolutely no problems at all--top of the percentile charts for his age and grade, IQ in the gifted range.  Then he went to 1st grade at his Montessori school and we always felt like his needs were being ignored there...the teaching style in lower elementary vs children's house was very different--more verbal and auditory and less sensory.  We suspected that he was not being taught the way he needed to be (even though it was Montessori...you know, follow the child and all?).  What we didn't expect was what we found via his testing scores yesterday.  His therapist did some academic tests (the WRAT) and the child who left Children's House at top of the class, 1st grade level or above on everything was testing at near the 3rd grade level for reading comprehension (he taught himself to read though), but still testing at the early 1st grade level for math and spelling, BELOW where he was in the Children's House!  He LOST skills this year.  They wasted an entire year's worth of time for him, and he ended the year below where he started. :(  So, now, not only are we sure homeschooling is better for him, we have to backtrack and do 1st grade work first.  No wonder he hated school, he was acting out, and being disruptive--he spent the year not even understanding anything except what he taught himself!  The school told me he was acting out because he was so smart that this stuff was too easy...no, he LOVES to be right and get the right answers--it's like an addiction for him.  He acts out when he is completely lost.  He was only at the 16th percentile for spelling and the 24th percentile for math--he used to be top of the percentiles for math.  He didn't even have the skills to accomodate himself by counting on his fingers or anything. :(  And for spelling, we know why that's an issue--he has auditory processing issues plus pronunciation issues, yet they continued to teach him phonetic spelling.  Yeah, for a kid who can't understand or speak appropriately for his age, that sounds like a recipe for failure...

So yeah, as big an advocate as I am for Montessori (I love Montessori, when it is done right.  LOVE it.), please please please make sure they can actually follow your child, instead of trying to teach him like every other child in the room...

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by Piglet68 

 Attwood goes on to describe the mental health issues such as anxiety and depression that can arise - not do to the AS itself, but the consequences of being an AS kid in school. I think these are important things to consider. 

I'd hold your tongue on that one until your kids are past puberty.

Anxiety and depression still happened for my ASD when she hit puberty, even though she was homeschooling. It was actually part of what led us to putting her in school. 

You'd be hard pressed to find any solid data comparing ASD kids who homeschool to those who do not. While the book might talk about "school" issues, I suspect it's not saying that not being is school makes those issues go away. It's just assuming that the child is in school, rather than talking about homeschooling groups, isolation, or that fact that other kids get pickier about friends as they get older, and that children become more aware of their differences as they get older (which I personally think has a great deal to do with the mental health aspects of ASD.)

And homeschooling "socialization" turned into a nightmare for us as DD got older.

You are still at the easy part. It's great that what you are doing is working for your kids for now. But you are at the beginning of a long journey.

Edited by Linda on the move - 6/9/11 at 8:53am

[Kiki Runs]

We were saying the same thing when ds was 5, but then realized (even before diagnosis) that working for the "good of the team" would NOT motivate him at that point--his reaction was while my younger dd is all "go team!". The reward system of motivation is basically about building a store of "little victories" for children that otherwise don't have many--The better ds feels about himself the easier it is to get him to do things. With spectrum and ADHD children we are also working with a child with about 30% of the emotional maturity of typical child.

We all work for rewards, even if it is just for the warm fuzzies of helping someone or doing what is expected of us.

http://www.autism-help.org/behavior-motivation-autism.htm

My DS and DD are this way as well - DD(6) is all about helping, whether it's with chores, schoolwork, her classmates, etc.  DS (8) does not care unless it's about dinosaurs or Transformers.  We also see improvements in behavior when HE is feeling better about himself.

I knew something was "different" about DS when he was a toddler.  Super bright, very verbal, huge vocab, liked to line his blocks up in a row, remembered all the words to all his books, could discuss various types of dinosaurs (and correct less-informed adults lol!) etc.  His preschool was fine, small (12 kids, very small town) so his teacher had more flexibility in catering to his abilities.  Kindie was less fine - his teacher started complaining about social issues (she pointed the finger at DS, I asked her to look again at the situations he was in and see if maybe he was acting out b/c he didn't know *how* to handle it, she expressed frustration at his lack of interest in peer engagement, etc).  First grade was even WORSE.  Seriously.  It was a hell year for DS as well as for me.  His teacher was AWFUL.  Social issues again, again they tried to present DS as anti-social, psychotic, future Columbine type....that's not DS.  True, he is not very interested in peer interaction, but he is not ANTI-social.  We watched him at lunch to see if we could get a handle on his interactions - we found that when the conversation at his table turned to topics in which he had an interest, he was quick to pipe up and put in his thoughts.  Once the convo turned back to, I dunno, Justin Bieber or whatever, his interest returned to his lunch lol.    His first grade teacher decided that as a motivator for DS, she would allow the class to earn marbles (rewards) for POLICING DS' BEHAVIOR.  Which, predictably, led to his classmates resenting him (he's holding them back from the reward) while DS grew more and more frustrated with his classmate's resentment.  The reward system was not good, not going to work, AND put DS under scrutiny all day long from all his classmates.  Happily, by the time the teacher shared her confusion at the failure of her reward system, she had already discontinued it (ie, by the time I heard about it, it was already over, thus exploding at the teacher would have had no effect....grrrrr). 

We homeschooled (unschooled - decompressed!) for the fall semester of this school year (2nd grade for DS), then moved so that I could complete an internship for my degree.  DS went back into public school here and has an ANGEL for a teacher.  She *gets* him (the school and I have had many meetings, and I was not shy about letting them know we ENJOYED the unschooling and I won't stand for any more misguided behavior mods - he does have a diagnosis, and I do believe it is correct, and I'm simply not going to hear any junk about anti-social etc.  Which is not an issue, b/c his current school rolled their eyes upon hearing that anyone suggested that.  Yay for awesome teachers!

As I mentioned, DS does have a diagnosis of Asperger's, given about a year ago.  He was being seen and evaluated at a children's clinic at my university, by a grad student who developed a great relationship with DS.  She was leaning toward the Aspergers but holding back due to his young age.  Her supervisor sat in for a few sessions and they consulted and agreed (very confidently) that Aspergers is what we are looking at.  We will be re-evaluating for ADHD (I was diagnosed with ADHD as an adult, about the same time we were evaluating DS lol) but felt it important to recognize the Aspergers and work with that issue first because both DS evaluators felt that it made sense to deal with the definite (ASD) and see if that alleviated any of the symptoms of the indefinite (ADHD).  I also felt good about waiting on that b/c I feel like many ADHD "symptoms" are also "symptoms" of being a young exuberant child (boy, specifically) operating in a school system that asks for unnatural behaviors from those energetic, curious boychildren.  :)

[Roar]

Originally Posted by Piglet68 

The bullying, the teasing, the desire to "be like the other kids", the anxiety around doing or saying something that will result in teasing or ostracizing...none of these things have happened to my children. Attwood goes on to describe the mental health issues such as anxiety and depression that can arise - not do to the AS itself, but the consequences of being an AS kid in school. I think these are important things to consider. 

Piglet - it is great your kids are thriving at home. I certainly agree with you that school brings a whole host of challenges and difficulties for many kids with Asperger's. And, a lot of the kids on the spectrum are well served by homeschooling. I am going to disagree though that the anxiety and depression so often associated with Asperger's come directly from school and will be absent if only kids are homeschooled. Having a disability that affects self regulation, sensory regulation and the ability to take in and understand social information is in and of itself a big stress. Living in  your own body can be rough. Social dynamics with siblings, parents, grandparents, neighbors, kids at homeschool co-op can all be sources of stress and can require efforts to learn to cope with. Even preschoolers with Asperger's who have never been to school sometimes have pretty intense anxiety.

Also, I would be mindful that things change as kids get older. It isn't that all kids with Asperger's don't care about fitting in. Some care about it desperately - they just might be really far away from being successful with that. Removing school sure lessens the number of hours a day where this is thrown in the child's face, but it doesn't erase the internal struggle that comes from knowing you want friends but you aren't able to find them. Kids at homeschool co-op are just as capable of finding you weird as kids are at school. And, a kid with Asperger's at home who is unsuccessful in many basic life areas may just as well feel pain about that.

[Piglet68]

I just want to clarify: I didn't mean to suggest that kids with AS who aren't in school aren't going to have anxiety, depression, etc. I understand from what I've read so far that it's not unusual for these issues to be co-morbid with AS. I certainly don't think that homeschooling is going to eliminate any of the symptoms of AS. What I was getting at is that school seems to add several issues/pressures that would not be there otherwise. 

With regards to socialization, my kids do want to socialize but have their challenges. I can tell you that, at least with the homelearning communities we've been part of over the years, this has been made SO much more easier by the fact that homeschool kids tend to be much more tolerant of "quirkiness", there does not seem to be this expectation of conformity in looks, dress, and behaviour that one sees in school settings. I have honestly never seen bullying, teasing, cliques, ostracizing, etc. in any of our interactions with other homeschoolers (mixed ages up to about 12 usually, sometimes older). So it's not that my kids haven't been around other children, they've just had little interaction with children for whom the social dynamics of school are the norm. Plus in our homeschool gatherings there are always lots of adults around, interacting with the children, so all the kids get a lot of guidance around social issues - attention that would often be missed in a classroom full of students with only one adult in charge.

I realize homeschooling isn't for everybody, but I can certainly see that life for my kids would be way harder if they were in school at this time in their lives. I also know that this won't apply to all children, either. 

Edited by Piglet68 - 6/9/11 at 8:09pm