Would You Bother Doing Gifted Testing in this Scenario?

[monkeybum]

My son just turned 7 and they have a Gifted program at his school that starts in grade one. He went to preschool and then Montessori, and all of his teachers consistently said he should be tested for giftedness - was reading by age 3, doing addition/subtraction at age 4, long division by age 5, LOVES math (one of his favorite things to do is get a calculator and quiz himself on multiple digit calculations to see if he can get them right). From an early age, he was always in to sorting things, adding and subtracting things, not so much in to regular "play".  He has an impecable memory.

He's reading at about a grade 3 level (he's in grade one) and got all A's on his mid-term report card. He's in French Immersion at the moment. He really connects with older kids and not so much with kids his own age. He doesn't really have any friends at school (though he tries to play with the grade 7 and 8's). He has also really connected with two separate friends kids who are both gifted children – it’s like they “get” each other.

He was identified for gifted testing in Kindergarten last year by the school and our board did part of the test (Stanford Binet something or other - the one for older kids).  His school has a special gifted class for those who are 97th percentile or higher.  Unfortunately, there were some medical issues in our family and some things happened the morning of his testing (we didn't know it was that day - they wouldn't tell us in advance which day it was) that he ended up leaving for school thinking his father and I were going to die and he was sobbing (DH was talking of suicide and I was being tested for breast cancer and I had received bad news that morning - that later turned out to be good news – but DH and I were arguing over it and DS heard us – NOT a good morning).  As he left for school, me and his dad were yelling at each other and crying, he refused to eat breakfast and he was sobbing - he kept hugging me and crying, asking why I was crying, and I yelled "because I'm going to die!".  Of course he starts sobbing, his dad starts talking about how nobody cares that HE's about to die...That morning will always stay with me as my worst parenting moment ever.  We later found out he did his gifted testing that morning.

They gave him the first part of the test and said it took him a long time to warm up, he was very quiet and seemed upset, but he apparently scored 94th percentile, then in the 2nd part of the test (not sure what that means) they said he shut down and wouldn’t finish it – just clammed up and was really upset and crying and just “shut right down” as the school psychologist described it). She said he came in around 75% percentile but they considered it an incomplete test because they thought he was able to continue but was really upset and couldn’t. I explained what had happened that morning and said it probably was related.

They suggested we have him retested, but we had to wait a year and pay for it ourselves – nearly $2000. Well, the appointment is next week and I’m just wondering if we should bother. If he really was only 75th and 94th then he’s not even close to qualifying for the gifted class and it will likely be a waste of money. They won’t approve a special education plan for a child in our board unless they are over 97th percentile on both sections. However, I’m still wondering if he would qualify under “normal” circumstances.

The other concern I have is that his dad has been away in treatment at an in-patient program and returned today, so this may cause some disruption in DS’s routine and security etc. (he and DH don’t get along very well) and he may end up not performing to his abilities right now anyway. However, he’s so far ahead of his class he is not really challenged and he has no friends.  If he is going to go in to the gifted class in the fall, I need to know pretty soon.

I guess part of me is hopeful that if he qualifies and moves in to the gifted class, he might be able to connect with some of these kids.  If I thought there was a strong chance that his score would be that much different, I would do it, but how likely is it that the emotional upset and lack of breakfast impacted his results, and how likely is it that they will be that much higher now?

Thoughts?

[moominmamma]

Is he happy in school? That would be my primary consideration. What exactly is the special gifted class? Is it a full-time grade-levelled class in FI, or a pull-out program?

I would be a little concerned about retesting him since the previous test was on a day that was clearly exceptionally traumatic for him. Even if it was the family situation that upset him, I wouldn't be surprised if a similar testing situation would arouse similar anxieties. If I pursued it I would want the testing to have a very different feel, a very different setting, from the first time. And I'd want to be assured that whatever program he might admitted to would provide something that would be a considerably better fit for him than whatever he's currently getting.

Miranda

[ollyoxenfree]

I would consider re-testing privately, although $2000 sounds a little steep for simply administering an IQ assessment for admission to a gifted program. Have you explored all the options in your area or is it simply that there are none and the psychologist is able to set prices? For $2000, I hope you are also receiving some pre-test and/or post-test interviews, and possibly a broader psychoeducational assessment with a couple of different types of tests. 

If this his only chance to join the gifted class, I would definitely re-test now, just to know what options are available to him. If he seems happy in school, then there may not be a pressing need to move into the gifted stream right now. But in a year or two or more, it may be a better place for him, especially if he continues to outperform the curriculum and the regular class teachers can't or won't accommodate him. If it won't be possible to join at a later date, I would want to know now if he could join. I would also carefully check out the gifted class and make sure it suits him, since it doesn't sound like you are sure about it. 

 

It sounds like emotional upset may have interfered with accurate results. There may be other issues though. Your DS may be gifted but also have something else going on.  A thorough psychoeducational assessment may provide some insight and answers. The details of the assessment, revealed within the performance on the different subtests, may tell you much more than the simple final IQ number. A good psychologist will take you through those details and answer all of your questions about them. 

If you believe that joining the gifted program is best for your DS, do you know the laws and policies for gifted education in your jurisdiction? I would make sure that a child absolutely needs a benchmark result like 97th percentile on an IQ test. In some places, that is one criteria but not the only one, particularly if there are teacher and psychologist recommendations for admission to gifted classes. Report card results, personal portfolio, independent learning etc. may all be considered as well. I wouldn't rely on a teacher or the principal of the school to know what criteria are necessary. They are often only familiar with the "usual' cases and don't know the finer details of admission policy. I would ask someone within the program and also seek out gifted advocacy groups in your area for their information, experience and advice. 

[monkeybum]

He loves his school, loves going and he loves his teacher, but he has no friends and does get sad that nobody will play with him at recess and that he's not invited to anyone's birthday parties.  But he really enjoys the programming - computers, gym, singing songs in French, etc. and he's a very hig achiever so he seems to enjoy participating in the actual work he does there and all of the fun things they do (Science in the School, field trips, soccer club, fundraisers etc.), but again he does complain that so-and-so made fun of him or that nobody will play with him.  I've watched at recess and he stands by himself most of the time.  For a while he was playing with the grade 7 and 8's, but I spoke to the teachers and they stopped that because they weren't being very nice to DS.  We've talked about and role played how he could play with the kids in his class, but they tell him to go away.

He is in the After School program and he really enjoys playing chess with some of the grade 4's and 5's.  His teachers does say that he has trouble sitting still and paying attention, (but they are learning sight words that he learned how to read phonetically 2 years ago, and learning to count to 100 when he can do long division and count to a million forwards and backwards by a multitude of denominations, so I imagine it's hard to sit there having things explained to you that you already know and waiting while 20 other kids try to count to 100).

He does enjoy the writing and drawing activities that they do, as he can do those at his own pace and they do have a great reading program where he can progress through the reading cart at his own pace, (the cart is shared by the grades 1's 2's and 3's - he's nearly at the end of it though so not sure what he'll do next year in grade 2.  He's also nearly at the end of the computer program they do where they can also progress through grades 1, 2 and 3 at their own pace).  He is a January baby though so he's also the oldest in the class, and having done 2 years of Montessori both may explain why he is performing more at a high grade 2 level.

There is only one requirement in our board for gifted identification and that is 97th percentile on this one specific Standford Binet test.  You then keep the identification through to the end of grade 12.  You have the option to attend the gifted-only class or to have an individualized learning plan incorporated in to the regular English or French classroom (so he could stay in French Immersion if he wanted to, but they would have to give him an individual learning plan versus just keeping him on the regular curriculum).  You continue to have this choice through to grade 12 once you are identified.  This is his only chance to be tested until grade 5.

The testing would be at a private facility that the board has agreed to accept results from, there are very few in the area who do the testing.  I'm just going to tell DS that it's a meeting for them to tell us how he can learn better or something - haven't quite thought that through yet, but I am not telling him it's for gifted testing as he'll be DEVASTATED if he doesn't make it - he doesn't know that's what the other test was last year either, he just thought he got to spend time at the principles office doing some "games".  He is a super high achiever and has a very hard time if he thinks he's not good enough for something.

My hope, I guess, is that if he is gifted he'll get an appropriate plan that will challenge him more and have the opportunity to join the other class (and maybe meet some kids he can relate to?).  If he's not gifted, I'm hoping the test can tell us how we can help him at school because I honestly feel like he has not learned a single thing in the 2 years he's been at public school, and not made any friends there to boot!

But he is happy so I don't want to dirsupt things too much.

[ChristaN]

That sounds like a child who is easily in the 97th percentile composite or likely above.  Which SB are they using?  It should be the SB-V, which is the newest version.  Are they looking for a full scale IQ score, or subtest scores?  You can get some info on the SB-V here, but it has five subtests and then the full scale number.  If I recall correctly, each of those subtests will also have two tests within in.  For example, working memory will test both verbal and non-verbal working memory (again if I recall right).  Each one has a verbal and non-verbal portion.

The trouble with spending that kind of $ to retest is the pressure and whether he will show what he can do due to anxiety.  My dd10 has been tested twice and her scores are all over the place with composite scores ranging from the mid-90s to the 99.9th+.  If someone were only looking for subtest scores, she'd be even more discrepant (around 25th to 99.9th percentiles).  If this is the only way in to the gifted program, though, and you feel that is would help your ds socially and emotionally, I'd see if you can find a less expensive testing situation.  Do you have a university near you where graduate psychology students might test on a sliding scale?  How about calling around to private psychologists to see what they'd charge for just the IQ test and nothing else?

I wouldn't assume that, b/c he had that one 75th percentile subtest, he isn't a 97th+ percentile child.  It was a snapshot of one day and a very stressful day at that.  All considered, he actually scored pretty well given the circumstances! 

[monkeybum]

So I got an update from the educational centre - they were only going to to the Stanford Binet because they had used the WISC III (one for younger kids?) the first time and he couldn't be retested for a year with the same test, but now that it's been a year they can do the WICS III again so they are doing that one.  And they are not going to do a full psychoeducational assessment at $2K, but just the WISC III for $900.  She says it takes about 2 hours.  There are no other psychologists in the area who do it.

I do think it's very likely he'll be nervous and not at his best, I didn't realize scores could vary so much!  He is a very anxious child and it will be a total change in routine and a totally new place with a stranger (they want me to wait in the waiting area) so we'll see how he does...he does not cope well with new places, people, changes in routine or being away from me with a stranger!

Is it possible to have very different scores from one day to the next?  I guess that's what I'm really asking.

Also, how likely is it that he's gifted (and worth doing the test) if he struggles with his verbal skills sometimes - you can see his mind working but he has trouble getting it out in words sometimes, and can have trouble explaining himself verbally.

Edited by monkeybum - 5/12/11 at 6:40pm

[joensally]

You're paying for a service - they need to explain what they're going to do and why, clearly.  I would clarify if they're doing the WPPSI-III or the WISC-III, and what their rationale for using either is.  Also, you said up-thread that the board only accepts Stanford Binet, so why pay for a WISC?

This has some interesting information about tests:

http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/highly_profoundly.htm

Yes, results can vary testing to testing.  Yes, he can be gifted even if he's tongue-tied sometimes.

It's common for gifted kids to do well on the verbal and non-verbal/quantitative portion of the WISC, but have average processing and working memory scores.  If you end up with a WISC and his full scale IQ is lower than 97 percentile with lower processing and working memory scores, ask that the GAI (General Abilities Index) be calculated. 

If your child is twice-exceptional (both gifted with learning disabilities, or severe anxiety, or...), you should ask the board to work with you to meet his needs - both his strengths and challenges.

I personally would wait for a calmer period in his life to test if that was an option.  And I would explain it to him as puzzles and questions that will help all of you understand how he learns best and how his mind works.  If he's sciency, emphasize that.

A last thought...whether he gets into gifted programming or not, you might look at social skills coaching for him.  Just being with other gifted kids may not be the panacea you'd think.

[moominmamma]

Originally Posted by monkeybum 

There are no other psychologists in the area who do it.

In Toronto? I'm stunned. This can't possibly be true ... unless you define "area" very narrowly. If you're not happy with the information you're getting and the testing scenario he's being offered, I'm sure there are other options not too far from you. 

Miranda

[ChristaN]

The WISC-III is very outdated.  If they are doing the WISC, it should be the WISC-IV, which came out eight years ago.  The WISC-V will be coming out fairly soon as well, I believe.  Older tests tend to give artificially inflated scores due to the Flynn Effect and the scores are less likely to be accepted as a result. 

FWIW, my dd with the wildly varying scores has ADD and significant anxiety.  On her bad days, she still does hit #s that would qualify her for GT programs b/c she still has subtests in the 99th and composite scores at or near the 97th, but her erraticness makes it hard to say what is accurate.  On her good days, the kid looks brilliant.

The #s can and do change.  Sometimes the changing #s reflect a true variance in ability in relation to others of the same age due to a period of rapid growth or stagnation.  Sometimes the #s reflect a child who freezes up or has something standing in the way of performing his best.  I do think that you could get a straight IQ test and nothing more for more like $500 and I know people who've paid as little as $250 for nothing more than the scores and a quick write up with the psych's signature.

[monkeybum]

Ack!  Now I'm really confused.  We're not exactly in Toronto, just in southern Ontario really, and I don't want to have to go all the way to Toronto.

The whole reason we are even doing this testing is because his school identified him in Kindergarten as someone who should be tested for the gifted program (they only test in Kindergarten and grade 4 - for entry in to grade one or five - no other chances apparently).  The test day through the school board was such a disaster (see my note above) and he didn't finish the test so they said he should be retested, but they only accept either the Stanford Binet if it's less than a year since the first test, OR the WISC-III if it's after a year.  The original test (WISC-III) was administered one year ago (as of last week). 

I wanted him retested right away so he could be identified for grade one (if he qualified).  They only allow entry in to the gifted program in grade one and five.  I called about 15 psychologists within a 2 hour radius of where we live and this is the only place that would do the Stanford Binet - BUT it was a year long waiting list, so here we are a year later and now that they can do the WICS, they are telling me that is better.  This is a fully accredited (with the province) educational assessment and psychological centre, they offer all kinds of testing, counseling and educational assessments, as well as tutoring and they run their own school out of this location as well for students with special needs.  It is one that the board recommended and said they would accept results from.

If it's not necessarily accurate given he will be anxious etc. and the test is outdated, I'm wondering if I should do a full psychoeducational assessment and try to nail this thing down once and for all (for the exra $1200 and it takes a full day instead of just 2 hours).  Thoughts?

What would a GAI tell me?

Many thanks!!

[ChristaN]

Originally Posted by monkeybum 

What would a GAI tell me?

Many specialists in gifted kids suggest not using the same test more frequently than every two years, but if your ds is more verbal than mathy, I'd probably stick with the WISC over the SB, but I would definitely ask about the WISC-IV.

As far as the GAI, it can be calculated for the WISC-IV, but I am not sure about the WISC-III.  The WISC-IV has four subtests that play into the FSIQ (full scale IQ): VCI (verbal comprehension index), PRI (perceptual reasoning index), WMI (working memory index), and PSI (processing speed index).  It is not uncommon for gifted children to have lower scores on the memory or speed indices than the other two and they are thought to be less "g" loaded.  The publisher has supported the use of a GAI in lieu of a FSIQ for kids who have unusual variances btwn WMI and/or PSI and the one or both of the other indices.  My oldest dd, for instance, came out around the 42nd percentile on the PSI (speed) and the upper 90s on the other three indices.  She got a GAI figured instead of a FSIQ.

[LynnS6]

I know you've waited a year to get him tested, but I might recommend thinking about 2 things:

First, can you put off testing until your home life has calmed down a bit? If dad has just come back from inpatient treatment, and you're getting adjusted to life as a family again, the added stress might put his scores off a bit. As I just told one of my students who is struggling, elevated cortisol is associated with lower cognitive performance.

Second, if he's a bit anxious and you're worried about other areas, I might see if you can afford the full work-up. I wish we'd done that for our ds in 2nd grade when we  had him evaluated for anxiety. The older he gets, the more I see a discrepancy between his verbal skills (incredibly high), his conceptual understanding of math (very good) and his ability to do visual spatial and computational things. I wonder what's going on with him, but he's not performing 'poorly' enough to warrant testing at this time, I think. (I shudder to think what is going to happen when he hits geometry in high school though. He'll do fine on the proofs, not so fine on visual stuff, I'm afraid.)

[joensally]

Originally Posted by LynnS6 

I know you've waited a year to get him tested, but I might recommend thinking about 2 things:

First, can you put off testing until your home life has calmed down a bit? If dad has just come back from inpatient treatment, and you're getting adjusted to life as a family again, the added stress might put his scores off a bit. As I just told one of my students who is struggling, elevated cortisol is associated with lower cognitive performance.

Second, if he's a bit anxious and you're worried about other areas, I might see if you can afford the full work-up. I wish we'd done that for our ds in 2nd grade when we  had him evaluated for anxiety. The older he gets, the more I see a discrepancy between his verbal skills (incredibly high), his conceptual understanding of math (very good) and his ability to do visual spatial and computational things. I wonder what's going on with him, but he's not performing 'poorly' enough to warrant testing at this time, I think. (I shudder to think what is going to happen when he hits geometry in high school though. He'll do fine on the proofs, not so fine on visual stuff, I'm afraid.)

I agree.

I should have been clearer about the GAI.  In a nutshell, with the WISC-IV, you can get a Full Scale IQ number (FSIQ), derived from the four test domains.  But it is common for gifted kids to have average scores, or low scores relative to their verbal and quantitative scores (these two scales are considered to be more indicative of giftedness), on the working memory and processing speed portions.  So, they'll have great "thinking"scores, but their working memory (think of it like what's in your thought bubble that you can work with in the moment) and their speed might be low.  The speed one is funny, and it's actually being investigated with gifted thinkers because it might not be that they're slow - they're just evaluating so many possibilities within the question that they appear slow to answer.

If you have an anxious kid, it's likely that his processing speed and working memory may be hampered - and his anxiety, processing speed and working memory should not keep him out of a program if his other scores are 97+.  The GAI is deemed acceptable by the test makers, but you may need to advocate with the school.

If you can't wait to do the testing, I would:

-request that the WISC-IV be used as it is the current standard;

-request that they're prepared to use extended norms if your son achieves ceilings on the subtests;

-request that they calculate the GAI and include it in the report as the school psychologist will not modify the findings but will accept them as stated.

I would call the school and get a definitive answer about what they'll accept  - which IQ test, and if they require an achievement test as well.  A full psych-ed may or may not give you answers regarding his anxiety, and given that he's got life circumstances that make anxiety make sense...  The full psych ed may only be an IQ test and an achievement test, which may indicate that he has LDs (discrepancies between his expected performance based on IQ results vs how he actually performs on the achievement tests.  If there are discrepancies, the testers may conclude that anxiety influenced it, but this isn't "new" or diagnostic information.  Did they give you inventories for both you and his teachers to complete?  Documents where you have to answer never/sometimes/always type questions?  Those are part of gauging if there are anxiety or other concerns at play.

Will you be able to talk to the testers prior to the administration of the test(s)?  I would highly recommend reading on hoagiesgifted.org so that you're clear on what tests are what, and write down exactly what people are telling you.  This is a lot of money to spend if you don't end up getting what you need.