Is it possible to prevent fleas naturally? - Page 2

[Ldavis24]

Originally Posted by Mirzam 

As a dog groomer, how many raw fed, unvaccinated, chemical free dogs do you see? Very few, if any, I would think because groomers won't allow dogs that are unvaccinated. Diet has much to do with flees, a raw species appropriate diet provides the best nutrition for a dog to have a strong immune system and a truly healthy dog will not get flee investations, nor will they get allergies, hot spots and tapeworms, and if they do get tapeworms or a the odd flee, their bodies have all they need to rid themselves of them.

that is just so not true. Diet can help a dog be healthier overall but fleas don't give a damn how healthy your dog is. Raw diet is not the be all end all that people want it to be for keeping a dog healthy. Further unless you bred your puppy yourself it HAS had at least some form of vaccinations if the breeder/shelter was worth anything. My family has bred puppies and they all get wormed/vaxxed at a very young age since worms in puppies are exceedingly common.

Show me some kind of evidence outside of your ancedotal experience that feeding your dog  the "perfect" diet and not vaccinating them is going to stop fleas from infesting them because like I said a flea doesn't care how healthy your dog is. A flea bites the dog, jumps off lays a ton of eggs and then jumps back on then all those little baby fleas are looking for meals to and while they have been living sneakily in your carpet they aren't going to NOT jump on your dog because of the way it is fed.

[Mirzam]

Originally Posted by Ldavis24 

that is just so not true. Diet can help a dog be healthier overall but fleas don't give a damn how healthy your dog is. Raw diet is not the be all end all that people want it to be for keeping a dog healthy. Further unless you bred your puppy yourself it HAS had at least some form of vaccinations if the breeder/shelter was worth anything. My family has bred puppies and they all get wormed/vaxxed at a very young age since worms in puppies are exceedingly common.

Show me some kind of evidence outside of your ancedotal experience that feeding your dog  the "perfect" diet and not vaccinating them is going to stop fleas from infesting them because like I said a flea doesn't care how healthy your dog is. A flea bites the dog, jumps off lays a ton of eggs and then jumps back on then all those little baby fleas are looking for meals to and while they have been living sneakily in your carpet they aren't going to NOT jump on your dog because of the way it is fed.

I don't know why you are so defensive, but you are wrong about fleas, they most certainly do prey on weakened animals. A raw diet is a vital component on keeping an animal in optimal health, so yes it will help an animal deal with fleas. My puppy is a 1st generation naturally reared dog, he has never been vaccinated or wormed and is the picture of health and vitality. Check out this interview given by a breeder who's 1st generation naturally reared newfie lived to be 17 years old. The interviewer did get a little confused, the dog with the breeder is the granddaughter not daughter of the 17 year old newfie.

As for evidence, well who is going to pay for research to prove a raw fed animal is healthier than a kibble fed dog, there is too much money at stack from the establishment. Do some research on natural rearing breeders, join a some yahoogroups, you will get plenty of evidence on the many, many benefits of a species appropriate raw diet, combined with no vax and chemicals. You are not understanding me, I am not saying fleas won't jump on a raw fed dog, they but they won't infest them if the animal is healthy, you might get a couple of fleas and that can be handled naturally very easily. Dogs that have a less than optimal diet (kibble, even premium) have their immune system corrupted by vaccines (auto antibodies) and are poisoned by insecticides, are just not healthy, plain and simple.

[Ldavis24]

Originally Posted by Mirzam 

I don't know why you are so defensive, but you are wrong about flees, they most certainly do prey on weakened animals. A raw diet is a vital component on keeping an animal in optimal health, so yes it will help an animal deal with flees. My puppy is a 1st generation naturally reared dog, he has never been vaccinated or wormed and is the picture of health and vitality. Check out this interview given by a breeder who's 1st generation naturally reared newfie lived to be 17 years old. The interviewer did get a little confused, the dog with the breeder is the granddaughter not daughter of the 17 year old newfie.

As for evidence, well who is going to pay for research to prove a raw fed animal is healthier than a kibble fed dog, there is too much money at stack from the establishment. Do some research on natural rearing breeders, join a some yahoogroups, you will get plenty of evidence on the many, many benefits of a species appropriate raw diet, combined with no vax and chemicals. You are not understanding me, I am not saying fleas won't jump on a raw fed dog, they but they won't infest them if the animal is healthy, you might get a couple of fleas and that can be handled naturally very easily. Dogs that have a less than optimal diet (kibble, even premium) have their immune system corrupted by vaccines (auto antibodies) and are poisoned by insecticides, are just not healthy, plain and simple.

I'm not defensive I am annoyed by you saying that dogs who eat raw diets don't get flea infestations...

yes a flea will attack a weakened dog, BUT they will also attack any animal they can. They are opportunists not selective hunters. Yes they can and will infest a healthy dog, a healthy immune system will slow a flea infestation but you cannot simply stop it by having a very healthy animal. Fleas DO NOT care how healthy an animal is in regard to an infestation. As a PP said for every flea you see there are hundreds more in your furniture carpets etc...

I'm not against raw diets at all, I think they are great but there is a huge huge push on MDC that the solution to every problem canine can be solved with a raw diet and that simply isn't true. A raw diet just isn't something that works for everyone and a raw diet combined with lack of vaccines is not going to stop a flea infestation, it's just not.

FYI, I know you mentioned you never use a heartworm medication for your dog and I find that just plain dangerous. Heartworm is common during the months in which the temperature allows the larvae to develop and it is horrible for dogs. I appreciate you have your alternative views on animal care but SOME things that are not natural are a good thing for the well-being of dogs. I just can't take a person really seriously when they say then NEVER do something like heartworm their dog because a "natural" dog is better (even when it dies of heartworms?) than a dog that has been selectively given a few chemicals for it's overall well-being. 
The whole, "lets be more natural than everybody else no matter what the cost" attitude really gets my goat. Have you ever seen a puppy die of Parvo? I have when I worked in the shelter I volunteered at (he was in quarantine because of the disease) Well actually he didn't die of Parvo specifically he was euthanized in part to prevent it spreading and in part because treatment wasn't working....Don't tell me all vaccines are bad for dogs, the parvo vax has saved so many puppies lives it's not even funny. It's not like a human vaccine for a disease that is so rare the number of cases can be counted on one hand. Some diseases that dogs are vaxxed for are really REALLY common. 

Edited by Ldavis24 - 5/16/11 at 8:26am

[Mirzam]

Originally Posted by Ldavis24 

I'm not defensive I am annoyed by you saying that dogs who eat raw diets don't get flea infestations...

yes a flea will attack a weakened dog, BUT they will also attack any animal they can. They are opportunists not selective hunters. Yes they can and will infest a healthy dog, a healthy immune system will slow a flea infestation but you cannot simply stop it by having a very healthy animal. Fleas DO NOT care how healthy an animal is in regard to an infestation. As a PP said for every flea you see there are hundreds more in your furniture carpets etc...

I'm not against raw diets at all, I think they are great but there is a huge huge push on MDC that the solution to every problem canine can be solved with a raw diet and that simply isn't true. A raw diet just isn't something that works for everyone and a raw diet combined with lack of vaccines is not going to stop a flea infestation, it's just not.

FYI, I know you mentioned you never use a heartworm medication for your dog and I find that just plain dangerous. Heartworm is common during the months in which the temperature allows the larvae to develop and it is horrible for dogs. I appreciate you have your alternative views on animal care but SOME things that are not natural are a good thing for the well-being of dogs. I just can't take a person really seriously when they say then NEVER do something like heartworm their dog because a "natural" dog is better (even when it dies of heartworms?) than a dog that has been selectively given a few chemicals for it's overall well-being. 
The whole, "lets be more natural than everybody else no matter what the cost" attitude really gets my goat. Have you ever seen a puppy die of Parvo? I have when I worked in the shelter I volunteered at (he was in quarantine because of the disease)...Don't tell me all vaccines are bad for dogs, the parvo vax has saved so many puppies lives it's not even funny. It's not like a human vaccine for a disease that is so rare the number of cases can be counted on one hand. Some diseases that dogs are vaxxed for are really REALLY common.

You have drunk the coolaid. You have not done your research on heartworm and you have no idea how a naturally reared dog's body operates, so I cannot take you seriously either because you are merely repeating what the AVMA and big pharma has told you. Vaccines are bad for dogs there is no way around it. Parvo is a man-made virus and the vaccine is the culprit. Unvaccinated puppies, properly cared for have a much better survival rate than those unfortunate enough to be vaccinated for the disease.

[Ldavis24]

Originally Posted by Mirzam 

You have drunk the coolaid. You have not done your research on heartworm and you have no idea how a naturally reared dog's body operates, so I cannot take you seriously either because you are merely repeating what the AVMA and big pharma has told you. Vaccines are bad for dogs there is no way around it. Parvo is a man-made virus and the vaccine is the culprit. Unvaccinated puppies, properly cared for have a much better survival rate than those unfortunate enough to be vaccinated for the disease.

oh christ, here comes the you are just a sheep for big pharma insult. Those get hurled around here like throwing rice at a wedding...

Parvo could have been made by fairies but that doesn't mean it isn't out in the world now. Vaccines may not be great for dogs but you ignored the point about heartworms which were not made by man and ARE a real threat to even the healthiest of dogs. 

As usual I am not surprised that the argument always turns to "you aren't crunchy enough because you just believe everything big pharma tells you"...I am just surprised that it is happening in the pets forum.

I certainly don't give my dog vaxes just because they are fun but I do give her the rabies vaccine (the only one actually although she is a shelter dog so by your standards she is damaged beyond repair) because it is the LAW and the fact that if she ever bit someone she wouldn't have to spend extended period of time in quarantine because of not vaxing her. I give my dog heartworm preventative in the appropriate season because I don't care how healthy or "natural" a dog is mosquitos could give a damn and the heartworm larvae certainly don't care either. I give her a flea and tick preventative because she otherwise gets miserable with one flea on her. Tick preventatives are especially important for people who live in regions (thinking southwest here) where diseases such as rocky mountain fever and others born by ticks are very common. Once again a "natural" dog is not immune to tick born diseases or mosquito born diseases. A healthy immune system is a wonderful thing in humans and dogs but a healthy immune system does NOT prevent some of the terrible diseases that can kill your dog.

If that is called drinking the Koolaid whatever, I have done copious amounts of research and just because I don't think that going ALL natural is the best idea doesn't mean I don't know what I am talking about. 

[Mirzam]

Originally Posted by Ldavis24 

oh christ, here comes the you are just a sheep for big pharma insult. Those get hurled around here like throwing rice at a wedding...

Parvo could have been made by fairies but that doesn't mean it isn't out in the world now. Vaccines may not be great for dogs but you ignored the point about heartworms which were not made by man and ARE a real threat to even the healthiest of dogs. 

As usual I am not surprised that the argument always turns to "you aren't crunchy enough because you just believe everything big pharma tells you"...I am just surprised that it is happening in the pets forum.

I certainly don't give my dog vaxes just because they are fun but I do give her the rabies vaccine (the only one actually although she is a shelter dog so by your standards she is damaged beyond repair) because it is the LAW and the fact that if she ever bit someone she wouldn't have to spend extended period of time in quarantine because of not vaxing her. I give my dog heartworm preventative in the appropriate season because I don't care how healthy or "natural" a dog is mosquitos could give a damn and the heartworm larvae certainly don't care either. I give her a flea and tick preventative because she otherwise gets miserable with one flea on her. Tick preventatives are especially important for people who live in regions (thinking southwest here) where diseases such as rocky mountain fever and others born by ticks are very common. Once again a "natural" dog is not immune to tick born diseases or mosquito born diseases. A healthy immune system is a wonderful thing in humans and dogs but a healthy immune system does NOT prevent some of the terrible diseases that can kill your dog.

If that is called drinking the Koolaid whatever, I have done copious amounts of research and just because I don't think that going ALL natural is the best idea doesn't mean I don't know what I am talking about. 

I am no longer willing to debate with you. Your comment about the immune system of dogs, is ridiculous, what makes dog's immune systems so lacking? I did address heartworm, I have done my research and I more than comfortable about not giving heartworm preventatives.  Frankly, I couldn't care less what you give your dog natural or unnatural, all I am concerned about is the health and well being of my dog. The OP asked about natural ways to control fleas, I told her. If you choose to use chemicals because you do not believe there is any other way, then fine with me.  My posts have obviously pushed your buttons for some reason, so please feel free to put me on ignore.

[Ldavis24]

Mirzam...I appreciate the not willing to debate I am done as well...I find it amusing you chose to cut things off as if you are above arguing pettily  considering you are the one who started hurling insults.

Peace out mama off to play outside with DD.

[NikonMama]

Originally Posted by Ldavis24 

This makes me laugh, not at you at all, but at my dog because we used advantage on her and it didn't do a thing. No one at the vet's office would believe us that it didn't work! Switched to Frontline and had better success but we are going to Interceptor, I think that is what it's called, The oral one anyway when its time to re-up our supply.

I don't think you mean Interceptor.  That is for heartworm and intestinal worms only, not fleas or ticks.  I use Interceptor for my dogs for heartworm preventative and intestinal worms b/c they like to eat chicken and cow poop.  Gross, I know, but chickens and cows carry worms so we HAVE to treat the dogs so they don't develop any of them.   

It sounds stupid, but you should try the cheap Hartz topical that you can get in the pet aisle in the grocery store.  We can't afford Frontline, so we thought we'd try the Hartz kind to see how it works.  We live in the country and our dogs were getting ticks like crazy.  I put the Hartz on, and the next day they completely stopped getting ticks altogether.  Our vet stopped carrying Frontline completely b/c of reports that it doesn't work as well anymore.
 

[Ldavis24]

Originally Posted by NikonMama 

I don't think you mean Interceptor.  That is for heartworm and intestinal worms only, not fleas or ticks.  I use Interceptor for my dogs for heartworm preventative and intestinal worms b/c they like to eat chicken and cow poop.  Gross, I know, but chickens and cows carry worms so we HAVE to treat the dogs so they don't develop any of them.   

It sounds stupid, but you should try the cheap Hartz topical that you can get in the pet aisle in the grocery store.  We can't afford Frontline, so we thought we'd try the Hartz kind to see how it works.  We live in the country and our dogs were getting ticks like crazy.  I put the Hartz on, and the next day they completely stopped getting ticks altogether.  Our vet stopped carrying Frontline completely b/c of reports that it doesn't work as well anymore.
 

ugh I can't remember what I mean but I will check out hartz just because like you said it is way way cheaper!

[NikonMama]

Originally Posted by Ldavis24 

ugh I can't remember what I mean but I will check out hartz just because like you said it is way way cheaper!

They have three different ones, the basic one, then Hartz UltraGuard Plus, and we used the highest one Hartz UltraGuard Pro.  Worked like a champ.  :)
 

[seashells]

I dunno if I want to stir up the bee's nest but the topic is interesting and important, I think. I wish I knew more about this, but from what I understand, this might be related to whatever new theory is out there that discredits Germ Theory.

As I understand it, the health of an organism is actually very relevant to how susceptible it is to pests (as well as disease of course). I recall reading somewhere that plant pests tend to target weaker plants and are more likely to leave the vigorous ones alone. While it makes sense that a pest would happily - heck, perhaps even more happily - munch on a healthier head of lettuce or a healthier dog, it appears there may be more to it than that. And even if it's not yet proven, it's certainly reason to pause and consider.

If fleas were completely indiscriminate, then every animal would be infested, no? I don't doubt that healthy animals can get fleas but perhaps there is something to a healthier animal's ability to shake them more easily.

Anyway, either way, it does at least relate to the OP's question.

We have cats and we use Frontline and it seems to do the job as far as the fleas go. Indeed fleas are all about prevention, no matter which path (natural health or chemicals) you may choose.

[greenmagick]

oh please be very very careful with the Hartz!!!  Unless they recently changed their formula, they are NOT safe for on skin applications and have causes A LOT of injuries, burns, and more.

[Ldavis24]

Ugh who can we trust anymore!

Seashells, without derailing it completely I do agree with the idea that a healthier animal is more resistant to an infestation of fleas or whatever but not impervious by any means. If some fleas jump on a super healthy dog a the dog park and get transported home. Bite said dog and then jump off lay their eggs all over and then those eggs hatch and need a host to suck some blood off. They aren't going to be picky if it is the only dog in the house they will infest that dog. I certainly don't think it can be harmful is the dog is as healthy as possible though. 

Ok done with that topic for real.

[lonegirl]

LOL

Why not trust the opinion of your vet?  That is what they are there for :)

 

Originally Posted by Ldavis24 

Ugh who can we trust anymore!

[NikonMama]

Originally Posted by greenmagick 

oh please be very very careful with the Hartz!!!  Unless they recently changed their formula, they are NOT safe for on skin applications and have causes A LOT of injuries, burns, and more.

How can it not be safe for on skin application, when it is a topical medication meant to be applied to the skin??  It didn't cause any harm to my dogs and my vet ok'd it. 
 

[Orionsmama]

Not sure if this is 100% true but I have heard that sprinkling brewers yeast on the dogs food is a good way to prevent fleas. anyone else know of this? I havent ever used it, but I would assume it is pretty safe for their digestive tract.

[saalmc]

Just wanted to jump back in and say I truly appreciate all of the responses and information here! Lots to think about.  I feel a bit sad that this topic caused so much controversy but I guess that can be par for the course some days 

We still have 4 weeks before our puppy is coming home (can't wait!!) and  we are meeting with our new vet to be this week, so will ask lots of questions and get his advice and opinion as well.  Thank you!!

[Ldavis24]

Originally Posted by lonegirl 

LOL

Why not trust the opinion of your vet?  That is what they are there for :)

 

hehe I don't not trust my vet but at the same time according to my vet Science Diet is about as good as dog food gets so you know, gotta take all the advice with a grain of salt. Although our vet is awesome. She has been with us through putting 3 pets down and is just really a wonderfully nice lady.

It's like my DD's ped, I listen and respect her opinion then I go do my own research anyway because thats just how I am!

[greenmagick]

Originally Posted by lonegirl 

LOL

Why not trust the opinion of your vet?  That is what they are there for :)

 

I  trust my vet.  I respect her and value her opinion but while she is more open than alternatives and holistic approaches then many, she is still a vet.  Look how many vets still push for yearly vaccs, science diet, etc.  
 

Originally Posted by NikonMama 

How can it not be safe for on skin application, when it is a topical medication meant to be applied to the skin??  It didn't cause any harm to my dogs and my vet ok'd it. 
 

http://www.hartzvictims.org/

yep, a whole website dedicated to victims

http://www1.epinions.com/reviews/This_is_Hartz_Flea_Tick_Drops_for_Cats_Weighing_More_Than_10_lbs

Again, unless they have changed their formula recently, from things vet techs, vets, etc have told me, the pesticide hartz uses is way too potent.  Sure it works often, but can really damage the dog.  Yes, its called a topical medication, doesnt mean its absolutely safe.  

[oaktreemama]

We use lavender oil shampoo on her in the summer which helps repel fleas and smells wonderful. That said, if we had an infestation I would not hesitate to use a chemical product. Fleas are miserable for everyone.

The only place I would use an Hartz product is a collar in my vacuum bag.

My dog has never had a flea problem. We feed a high end kibble/BARF diet and she has had her vaccines-though we did a three yr protocol and now that she is older skip all of them but rabies. I agree that having a healthy well cared for dog can certainly improve flea/pest outcomes, however I am skeptical that a BARF diet is the be all end all. There is too much genetics at play.