Does GD Breed Wild Children? - Page 6

[lalaland42]

Originally Posted by Dar 

I'd pay my friend for the ruined items and apologize, and tell my four year old that friend and friend's parents were really unhappy because their things now had nail polish all over them, and I'd explain (if my kid didn't know) that nail polish couldn't be washed off and so was really important to only use it with an adult and veeery carefully.

I'd also make a mental note that 4 year olds need adult supervision and that I should check for stuff like nail polish before letting my kid play in a room where I can't see her. Yeah, kid did a dumb thing, but she's four, and four year olds do stuff like that. My kid actually remembers being 3 and 4, and how she thought about things when she was that age... and it's really interesting to hear her talk about it because it's so clear that she wasn't able to reason in an adult way, and that things that seem mind-blowingly obviously dumb to an adult made perfect sense to her.

This is what I would do as well. Depending on the 4 year old, I would either make her apologize or have her there while I modeled apologizing. DD would likely become very upset about apologizing and I would tell her that it is hard for me to apologize too because apologizing is uncomfortable but it is a necessary part of having friends.

[GoBecGo]

Good thoughts!  :)

FWIW DD DID know that nail varnish doesn't come off easily and that she should never touch it, BUT i do keep it out of reach in my house - because her kids couldn't open the bottle and her DG had been using it as a display item on a "princess dressing table" it was in their room.  The room we were in was literally 2 yards (VERY small apartment) away, and though i agree that constant supervision would have prevented it, i actually need to be able to leave my nearly-5yo alone for 4 minutes and not expect her to immediately do crazy destructive damage to stuff (YMMV - she is a kid who will take something she knows very very well she mustn't touch and then say to me "YOU should have put it up high" because when she was younger i think i took on too much of the responsibility for her actions and it suits her to blame her shortcomings on someone else - i absolutely agree that keeping things out of reach is most important, but equally perpetual supervision isn't a realistic answer to an older and older child without impulse control, at some point i feel i needed to get her practising impulse control).  These are all just the thoughts i had on my specific kid at that time - there is a significant difficulty with taking responsibility with other family members and i'm anxious to help her feel she is able to take responsibility and not so helpless to fix things that she needs to blame others instead.

Well this is what happened....

Friend was very visibly upset at the time.  She did not shout at DD but she did say "DD we are your friends, and DG is so upset over her lovies - look how sad she is (DG was HYSTERICAL, and no wonder), i am so so sad that you did this in my home.  This is NOT ok!"  I stood by DD as this was said and nodded agreement.  DD half-heartedly said it was supposed to be funny and i pointed to the tear-stained faces around the room and asked "is anyone laughing now?".  I told her, in front of friend, that we would be paying for the damage she did and that she would have to pay what she could afford from her own savings (only the piggy bank, not the savings account).

We gave friend some cash immediately, but it was later that she confessed that it was her and not DB who had done it (previously we'd asked DB and he'd "confessed" but he has ASD and tends to agree or disagree based on what he thinks the asker wants to hear).  At that point i immediately texted the friend (we were still on the bus home) and told her so she would not be overly upset with her actually-innocent kids.  I promised i'd make it up to them.  That evening DD was sent to fetch her piggy bank and we emptied it and put the money into a special part of my purse.  We talked a lot about what had happened and we brainstormed how we could fix it.  With help (but no coercion, she needed ideas but not much encouragement to actually try to make amends, by then she was pretty clear on the magnitude of what happened) she decided what she could do, and what i would help her do.  We settled on:

Replace the bed linen

Replace the lovies with new versions

Replace the outfit DB had been wearing (DD had also liberally painted him with "blood" 0 it was dark red nail varnish)

DD would make an apology card/picture for friend and another for DG

DD would give friend a verbal apology

It was really hard watching her process what she'd done.  She kept bursting into tears all evening, saying things like "what if it was MY lovie, i would be so sad" and "DG is going to bed with no lovie Mama!".  I felt so bad for her, i know how painful it is when one's shortcomings come to haunt one.  We hugged a lot, i told her over and over that we loved her, friend loved her, we could make amends.

The following day we went to the city and bought the new items, DD chose linen with a design that DG would love (DG actually said in awe "oh my dreams!" when she saw it!  LOL).  The next day we took it all over, with the lovingly drawn and coloured pictures, and DD apologised very sweetly and asked friend could she "hug it better" and gave her a massive hug.  Friend was actually pretty impressed by how DD had taken it all on and thanked her for making it all better again.

Since then we've talked a few times more about respecting other peoples property and not doing the wrong thing and getting help if a decision turns out to be the wrong one.  DD has actually been MUCH more careful since then, and much more thoughtful about other peoples things.  If DD is getting into a scrape now she comes to summon help right away and i am quick to tell her i'm proud of her for seeing she needs help and getting it so fast.  She also occasionally brings me things she thinks "the baby shouldn't get" - things the baby wouldn't even notice but that DD might misuse.  So in that way she still uses me to help her control impulses, but she is MUCH better at spotting temptation and avoiding it.

I was told by various people that how i handled it was shaming, punishing and humiliating.  I shouldn't have let the friend tell her how sad and disappointed she was, i shouldn't have had her apologise, pay or make amends (she handed over the new items to the recipients, not me), that the amends made were excessive and i should have settled on a short apology and never mentioned it again.  Basically that the responsibility was one of supervision and my failure and that she should have been protected from responsibility for the damage.  Not by everyone, of course, but by many.  I don't personally see anything we did as a punishment.  I think there were a few lessons in there, about not wrecking stuff, about taking financial responsibility as well as emotional responsibility, about protecting our relationships with loved ones being more important than pride or money.  But those are LESSONS, and discipline is TEACHING and that's what i felt all that was about.  I guess as my kids grow (and DD is my eldest so i'm still very new to this!) i feel that there is a difference between the damage a 2yo might do (basically force of nature) and the damage a 4yo might do (she is not longer without levers when it comes to controlling herself).  I guess i believe if i treat DD like a little thinking feeling person whose relationships are important to her and who WANTS to navigate the world without hurting people but who might need a little help figuring out how to do that it's probably better, long term, than treating her as if she "can't help it" until she stops (assuming she would) doing these crazy things of her own volition.  Equally i cannot really pretend that much of what we did to make amends was a pure consequence - the consequence would have been friend no longer welcoming us in her home!  All of my imposed consequences were aimed at sparing us the natural one!

[lalaland42]

I think your response was perfectly appropriate and lovely and it sounds like you have a wonderful daughter. BTW, I include "friends being upset when we ruin their things" as a natural consequence. Your friend shouldn't have to suppress her feelings, just express them in appropriate ways.

[sosurreal09]

I don't think there was anything wrong with what you did but I would not have let my friend (other kids mom) talk to my DD about it the way she did. Obvs your DD could SEE how upset the kids were she had no business "rubbing it in" IMO. Also you know your DD and if she needs more supervision you just have to handle it, even though that can totally stink sometimes. Or if anything do a "sweep" of the room when you arrive to see if there is anything she can get herself into trouble with.

[GoBecGo]

Originally Posted by sosurreal09 

I don't think there was anything wrong with what you did but I would not have let my friend (other kids mom) talk to my DD about it the way she did. Obvs your DD could SEE how upset the kids were she had no business "rubbing it in" IMO. Also you know your DD and if she needs more supervision you just have to handle it, even though that can totally stink sometimes. Or if anything do a "sweep" of the room when you arrive to see if there is anything she can get herself into trouble with.

It was ME who pointed out the crying children, not her and i did so to make sure DD understood that however "funny" her actions were to her they were very much hurting other people.  And you might think this was obvious but i've seen my DD yelling "it's a funny JOKE" at an obviously crying child she has upset, and expecting them to get over their emotional pain with the intellectual information that it was intended as a joke.

I don't see why she shouldn't be allowed to respectfully express dismay, upset and anger when a person she has only ever been good to wrecks a lot of her and her children's stuff in her home?  And how would i have handled that?  Would i have stopped her, while she was expressing her hurt, and said "don't talk to my child that way" and left?  And what would that have taught DD about her own place in the proceedings?  Sometimes you hurt people, and the way they react is hurtful to YOU, and that absolves you of the original hurt you caused?  Another valid lesson?  No?  I have enough trouble parenting my kids, i can't be parenting my friends as well!

[HeliMom]

That sounds pretty appropriately handled to me, and I don't see it as punishing.  You were helping your daughter express her own regrets by empathizing with her friends. You also empathized with her, and helped her separate a bad decision from the idea of being a bad person.  You helped her brainstorm so she got a chance to practice making amends that are real and meaningful to the harmed party.  I'm not at that age yet with DD but how you handled things would be in line with how I parent and I subscribe to the ideals of UP.

I can't say if your friend was "rubbing it in"  I wasn't there. I do know I narrate situations to my DD to help her process and I could have said those exact words in a that was just putting words to the situation with no intention of causing further grief. Also I think you can't control how others react to tragedy and that's a good lesson to learn.

[sosurreal09]

I am seriously not trying to offend you, you asked how I would handle it (everyone) and I gave input. I did say I didn't see anything wrong with how you handled it. I seem to have issues with other people reprimanding my child, when I am right there, and I can handle it myself. So I read it wrong and thought she said those things not you...*I* would have discussed it at home with DD personally b/c that's what *I* feel comfortable with. Other than that I would most likely have done everything else you did. I think it is good you made her responsible in helping to pay for the damage and not shrugging it off like "Here is a blank check all better!"
 

Originally Posted by GoBecGo 

It was ME who pointed out the crying children, not her and i did so to make sure DD understood that however "funny" her actions were to her they were very much hurting other people.  And you might think this was obvious but i've seen my DD yelling "it's a funny JOKE" at an obviously crying child she has upset, and expecting them to get over their emotional pain with the intellectual information that it was intended as a joke.

I don't see why she shouldn't be allowed to respectfully express dismay, upset and anger when a person she has only ever been good to wrecks a lot of her and her children's stuff in her home?  And how would i have handled that?  Would i have stopped her, while she was expressing her hurt, and said "don't talk to my child that way" and left?  And what would that have taught DD about her own place in the proceedings?  Sometimes you hurt people, and the way they react is hurtful to YOU, and that absolves you of the original hurt you caused?  Another valid lesson?  No?  I have enough trouble parenting my kids, i can't be parenting my friends as well!

[GoBecGo]

Originally Posted by sosurreal09 

I am seriously not trying to offend you, you asked how I would handle it (everyone) and I gave input. I did say I didn't see anything wrong with how you handled it. I seem to have issues with other people reprimanding my child, when I am right there, and I can handle it myself. So I read it wrong and thought she said those things not you...*I* would have discussed it at home with DD personally b/c that's what *I* feel comfortable with. Other than that I would most likely have done everything else you did. I think it is good you made her responsible in helping to pay for the damage and not shrugging it off like "Here is a blank check all better!"
 

Oh, no i am not offended!  It's so hard to convey tone in these things!  LOL

I am really just clarifying my position and "talking" about it.  I'm happy enough with how it all went, i don't think it was perfect but i do think it worked fine for us in the overall sense, so i'm not feeling defensive at all, sorry that doesn't come off very well! I am really enjoying the conversation! 

Really, i am interested in how you would have handled the reprimand, would you have stopped her?  Or what?  I am trying to imagine how i could have done anything in the moment (obviously if she'd been yelling or threatening i would have HAD to step in) without minimising her feelings of hurt...?  If these things come up for others how do they handle it?
 

[coffeegirl]

Originally Posted by mamakay 

I guess I think it depends on your kid, and the age of your kid.

I know I don't steal, not because I could get arrested, but rather because I believe that stealing is (generally) wrong. At this point, a LOT of my oldest kid's behaviors are motivated by similar internalized ethics and logical understandings, because he's almost 8 now and old enough to grasp that stuff.

Between ages 2 and 5, he lacked the "please mommy" motivation my youngest has and was just kinda crying out "MAKE ME!" over everything between ages 1-4. And he was not a happy camper before firm consequences were added into his life. He actually became happier in general once I was, well, punishing (via grounding from tv, etc)  him into not tantruming all the time.

I'm honestly deeply skeptical about the idea that all kids can be effectively parented without consequences/punishment ever being used at any stage. The scientific data indicates that "authoritative" parenting (democratic parenting, but consequences are used) produces kids with less anxiety and depression than either permissive (no consequences) or authoritarian (little negotiation, total hardass) parenting. The sub-effects have never been teased out, but I suspect that's because authoritative parenting both lets the kids have a lot of say (good) while also catching the behavioral outliers who really need *enforced* authority.

I totally agree.

[sosurreal09]

I absolutely would have stopped her! I would have taken the polish away and let her see how upset her friends were then have told them she will be replacing the items. Then we would have left. I would say something like "I thin it is best that we go and think about what just happened." I would apologize to the parent and children and if DD did too that would be great if not we would discuss that in private. I would have a discussion with her face to face about how hurt her friends were and how it really wasn't funny. Then we would brainstorm how to patch things up with the friend. I would have made her put money in towards it too. I just like to handle my discipline more privately. Whenever we are at someone elses home and DD does something "she shouldn't" (quotes b/c my DD is so young) I notice I will be kind of harsh on her with an audience (b/c people tend to judge me and think she will be wild b/c I GD and I don't do it on purpose) so I like to remove her and have a little privacy so it doesn't turn into a "bad girl" situation. Not saying your situation did though.

It is obvious your DD really took this to heart. She was physically upset all night so I am sure she punished herself enough with empathy for the friends she hurt. That is good she has empathy and could see how it really effected everyone.

Originally Posted by GoBecGo 

Oh, no i am not offended!  It's so hard to convey tone in these things!  LOL

I am really just clarifying my position and "talking" about it.  I'm happy enough with how it all went, i don't think it was perfect but i do think it worked fine for us in the overall sense, so i'm not feeling defensive at all, sorry that doesn't come off very well! I am really enjoying the conversation! 

Really, i am interested in how you would have handled the reprimand, would you have stopped her?  Or what?  I am trying to imagine how i could have done anything in the moment (obviously if she'd been yelling or threatening i would have HAD to step in) without minimising her feelings of hurt...?  If these things come up for others how do they handle it?
 

[GoBecGo]

No, but i mean, would you have stopped the friend?  Mid-sentence - we noticed because we were doing the 5 minutely check up on what they were doing, and our friend just came out with it when she saw the mess, it wasn't that she was taking my job as a parent, she was just totally dismayed i think.  As she said it i was already removing the varnish from her hand and beginning to clean up.  We stayed long enough that i had a good idea the extent of the damage and had cleaned the nail varnish off DB and DD and attempted to clean up the lovies (in the hopes that they could at least still be loved until they could be replaced - unfortunately they were plastic-faced dolls and she'd painted out the eyes, and when we tried to clean the eyes dissolved with the varnish solvent!).  I didn't feel i could leave my friend with the entire clean-up operation alone OR expect her to keep her feelings to herself while we cleaned up.  So if you're in a situation like that and the other person is already speaking, what do you do?

And yes, she has a lot of empathy, what she lacks (and is getting much better at) are foresight and impulse control!  She's really smart though, and caring, and i'm really proud of her.
 

Originally Posted by sosurreal09 

I absolutely would have stopped her! I would have taken the polish away and let her see how upset her friends were then have told them she will be replacing the items. Then we would have left. I would say something like "I thin it is best that we go and think about what just happened." I would apologize to the parent and children and if DD did too that would be great if not we would discuss that in private. I would have a discussion with her face to face about how hurt her friends were and how it really wasn't funny. Then we would brainstorm how to patch things up with the friend. I would have made her put money in towards it too. I just like to handle my discipline more privately. Whenever we are at someone elses home and DD does something "she shouldn't" (quotes b/c my DD is so young) I notice I will be kind of harsh on her with an audience (b/c people tend to judge me and think she will be wild b/c I GD and I don't do it on purpose) so I like to remove her and have a little privacy so it doesn't turn into a "bad girl" situation. Not saying your situation did though.

It is obvious your DD really took this to heart. She was physically upset all night so I am sure she punished herself enough with empathy for the friends she hurt. That is good she has empathy and could see how it really effected everyone.

[sosurreal09]

Yeah clean up is a good point. I would clean up too. I guess it would depend on exactly what my friend was saying if she was like "Oh God look at this mess, oh no the lovies!" etc I would be ok with that BUT if she were reprimanding/trying to reprimand my child, yes I would stop her and I would just say "I know you are really upset right now but I will handle my DD when we get home." or "I sympathize with what you must be feeling right now, but I prefer to discuss things with DD privately/at home." If she didn't get the hint and tried to reprimand her further I would leave. Same goes for if she was trying to intentionally guilt my child or putting her down. Yes DD did it and she will be dealt with and we will discuss the situation but there is no situation acceptable for me to be permissive of someone talking down to or putting down my child.

[mamakay]

Originally Posted by mamazee 

Originally Posted by mamakay 

I guess I think it depends on your kid, and the age of your kid.

I know I don't steal, not because I could get arrested, but rather because I believe that stealing is (generally) wrong. At this point, a LOT of my oldest kid's behaviors are motivated by similar internalized ethics and logical understandings, because he's almost 8 now and old enough to grasp that stuff.

Between ages 2 and 5, he lacked the "please mommy" motivation my youngest has and was just kinda crying out "MAKE ME!" over everything between ages 1-4. And he was not a happy camper before firm consequences were added into his life. He actually became happier in general once I was, well, punishing (via grounding from tv, etc)  him into not tantruming all the time.

I'm honestly deeply skeptical about the idea that all kids can be effectively parented without consequences/punishment ever being used at any stage. The scientific data indicates that "authoritative" parenting (democratic parenting, but consequences are used) produces kids with less anxiety and depression than either permissive (no consequences) or authoritarian (little negotiation, total hardass) parenting. The sub-effects have never been teased out, but I suspect that's because authoritative parenting both lets the kids have a lot of say (good) while also catching the behavioral outliers who really need *enforced* authority.

You are the first person I've heard in this thread define "permissive" as not punishing (which is what imposing consequences is). I doubt that's what scientific studies are using as a definition either.

And I've also heard people say they're skeptical all kids can be parented without spanking.

I don't believe all kids need to be spoken to exactly the same or parented exactly the same, but just as I believe it's possible to parent all children effectively without spanking, I believe it is possible to parent all children effectively without other punishments.

No, I found some of the original 1960's research defining "permissive parenting," and "nonpunitive" is the core aspect of what makes a parenting style permissive.

http://persweb.wabash.edu/facstaff/hortonr/articles%20for%20class/baumrind.pdf

I know some people are skeptical that all kids can be parented without spanking, but there are entire countries in Europe (where spanking is illegal) debunking that notion.

[coffeegirl]

Originally Posted by GoBecGo

I was told by various people that how i handled it was shaming, punishing and humiliating.  I shouldn't have let the friend tell her how sad and disappointed she was, i shouldn't have had her apologise, pay or make amends (she handed over the new items to the recipients, not me), that the amends made were excessive and i should have settled on a short apology and never mentioned it again.  Basically that the responsibility was one of supervision and my failure and that she should have been protected from responsibility for the damage.  Not by everyone, of course, but by many.  I don't personally see anything we did as a punishment.  I think there were a few lessons in there, about not wrecking stuff, about taking financial responsibility as well as emotional responsibility, about protecting our relationships with loved ones being more important than pride or money.  But those are LESSONS, and discipline is TEACHING and that's what i felt all that was about.  I guess as my kids grow (and DD is my eldest so i'm still very new to this!) i feel that there is a difference between the damage a 2yo might do (basically force of nature) and the damage a 4yo might do (she is not longer without levers when it comes to controlling herself).  I guess i believe if i treat DD like a little thinking feeling person whose relationships are important to her and who WANTS to navigate the world without hurting people but who might need a little help figuring out how to do that it's probably better, long term, than treating her as if she "can't help it" until she stops (assuming she would) doing these crazy things of her own volition.  Equally i cannot really pretend that much of what we did to make amends was a pure consequence - the consequence would have been friend no longer welcoming us in her home!  All of my imposed consequences were aimed at sparing us the natural one!

I think you did great. Personally, I don't see any actual what I would call "punishments" in how you handled it....you just walked her through the natural consequences of doing what she did. She learned a whole lot, which is apparent by the emotions she felt as she finally "understood" (the way that a 4 year old is capable of understanding) the magnitude of what she did and, most importantly, how it affected others. She's learning about consequences and she's learning empathy. And as far as "shaming" goes...I think that shame has very unfairly been turned into a dirty word by some in the modern psychology movements. Shame is a natural, good, productive feeling that we feel when we've done somerhing wrong. Misplaced shame is another thing, but a lot of people seem to think that ALL feelings of shame and guilt are misplaced. It is appropriate to feel ashamed when we realize we've done wrong. Seems that, although this wasn't a "great" situation, it turned into an awesome learning experience all around. Was it hard? Yes. But that's how life is. If it wasn't hard then there wouldn't be that much of a deterrent for people to NOT do shameful or wrong things. Feeling shame appropriately is a sign of a well-formed (and still-forming) conscience and it's a good thing IMO.   

[coffeegirl]

Originally Posted by GoBecGo 

No, but i mean, would you have stopped the friend?  Mid-sentence - we noticed because we were doing the 5 minutely check up on what they were doing, and our friend just came out with it when she saw the mess, it wasn't that she was taking my job as a parent, she was just totally dismayed i think.  As she said it i was already removing the varnish from her hand and beginning to clean up.  We stayed long enough that i had a good idea the extent of the damage and had cleaned the nail varnish off DB and DD and attempted to clean up the lovies (in the hopes that they could at least still be loved until they could be replaced - unfortunately they were plastic-faced dolls and she'd painted out the eyes, and when we tried to clean the eyes dissolved with the varnish solvent!).  I didn't feel i could leave my friend with the entire clean-up operation alone OR expect her to keep her feelings to herself while we cleaned up.  So if you're in a situation like that and the other person is already speaking, what do you do?

And yes, she has a lot of empathy, what she lacks (and is getting much better at) are foresight and impulse control!  She's really smart though, and caring, and i'm really proud of her.
 

I woulnd't have stopped her unless she was going on and on and starting to repeat herself and/or getting angry, yelling, being insulting or threatening, etc. Otherwise, I think it was good for your daughter to hear it (just going by how you've described what your friend told her.) 

[DevaMajka]

Originally Posted by GoBecGo 

I was told by various people that how i handled it was shaming, punishing and humiliating.  I shouldn't have let the friend tell her how sad and disappointed she was, i shouldn't have had her apologise, pay or make amends (she handed over the new items to the recipients, not me), that the amends made were excessive and i should have settled on a short apology and never mentioned it again.  Basically that the responsibility was one of supervision and my failure and that she should have been protected from responsibility for the damage.  Not by everyone, of course, but by many.  I don't personally see anything we did as a punishment.  I think there were a few lessons in there, about not wrecking stuff, about taking financial responsibility as well as emotional responsibility, about protecting our relationships with loved ones being more important than pride or money.  But those are LESSONS, and discipline is TEACHING and that's what i felt all that was about.  

I totally agree with you. What you did is probably along the lines of what I would do (and still consider myself non-punitive). Exdp would probably do what many of the other women have said they would do (which is, talk to dc about it and supervise better in the future). Neither way is wrong- exdp is a fantastic dad and I love his discipline style. But I'm a good mom, and my discipline style works for me.
 

[mamazee]

Originally Posted by coffeegirl 

I think you did great. Personally, I don't see any actual what I would call "punishments" in how you handled it....you just walked her through the natural consequences of doing what she did. She learned a whole lot, which is apparent by the emotions she felt as she finally "understood" (the way that a 4 year old is capable of understanding) the magnitude of what she did and, most importantly, how it affected others. She's learning about consequences and she's learning empathy. And as far as "shaming" goes...I think that shame has very unfairly been turned into a dirty word by some in the modern psychology movements. Shame is a natural, good, productive feeling that we feel when we've done somerhing wrong. Misplaced shame is another thing, but a lot of people seem to think that ALL feelings of shame and guilt are misplaced. It is appropriate to feel ashamed when we realize we've done wrong. Seems that, although this wasn't a "great" situation, it turned into an awesome learning experience all around. Was it hard? Yes. But that's how life is. If it wasn't hard then there wouldn't be that much of a deterrent for people to NOT do shameful or wrong things. Feeling shame appropriately is a sign of a well-formed (and still-forming) conscience and it's a good thing IMO.   

Feeling shame from within when you've done something wrong is productive, but I feel very strongly that having someone speak to you in a way to create shame is destructive. I've been on the receiving end, I know how it feels, and I've seen what it did to me and my siblings.

[GoBecGo]

Originally Posted by mamazee 

Originally Posted by coffeegirl 

I think you did great. Personally, I don't see any actual what I would call "punishments" in how you handled it....you just walked her through the natural consequences of doing what she did. She learned a whole lot, which is apparent by the emotions she felt as she finally "understood" (the way that a 4 year old is capable of understanding) the magnitude of what she did and, most importantly, how it affected others. She's learning about consequences and she's learning empathy. And as far as "shaming" goes...I think that shame has very unfairly been turned into a dirty word by some in the modern psychology movements. Shame is a natural, good, productive feeling that we feel when we've done somerhing wrong. Misplaced shame is another thing, but a lot of people seem to think that ALL feelings of shame and guilt are misplaced. It is appropriate to feel ashamed when we realize we've done wrong. Seems that, although this wasn't a "great" situation, it turned into an awesome learning experience all around. Was it hard? Yes. But that's how life is. If it wasn't hard then there wouldn't be that much of a deterrent for people to NOT do shameful or wrong things. Feeling shame appropriately is a sign of a well-formed (and still-forming) conscience and it's a good thing IMO.   

Feeling shame from within when you've done something wrong is productive, but I feel very strongly that having someone speak to you in a way to create shame is destructive. I've been on the receiving end, I know how it feels, and I've seen what it did to me and my siblings.

I think that shame in the moment can be useful - i agree that it's a mechanism that allows us to re-evaluate our actions and how they have affected those around us.  I think the problem with shame is that a) if it is retrospectively applied or borne as a grudge it can really eat away at one's sense of self-worth (my mother was a grudge bearer at times and it could be really damaging) and b) it can make one feel disabled to make amends "i'm so ashamed, i can't even go there, let alone apologise!" "how can i even show my face!?" etc.  So i think a little shame is to be celebrated as a properly functioning conscience, too much shame just shackles us against giving right redress.

So i think there is a HEALTHY place for shame, and an UNHEALTHY place.  I agree if i'd felt my friend was still going on when DD was already hysterical i would certainly have stopped her by pointing out that she was already feeling about as bad as she could and/or left - i do think she had every right to be upset though, in the moment.  I don't feel protecting DD from the reasonable responses of those around her is useful to her, but likewise she IS only 5 (only 4 then) and i don't think she should be treated as if she purposefully did wrong.  What she did that day was thoughtless, disrespectful, destructive and not a little callous (DG witnessed the lovies being wrecked AND cried throughout but DD continued because DB was laughing!  VERY poor judgement as we later discussed!) but it wasn't intentionally any of those things.  She just lacked the life experience to really extrapolate the results of those actions, and got carried away in the moment.  Fortunately our friend is a very loving mother and woman and did not seek to hurt DD, only to honestly let her know that what she had done was NOT ok.  She accepted the apologies lovingly and joyfully and "got over" the incident immediately.  She's a really wonderful friend!

[sosurreal09]

I think the hard thing is that the parents that really care can sometimes be paranoid that we will/have done something wrong and will screw up our kids! I had a lot of guilt for trying the baby whisperer out on DD (she was what I would call extreme high needs and I needed some help) which is a "non-CIO" method to get the baby to sleep and eat on schedule and what not. It didn't feel right to me but I did try it for months...and I never let her CIO but I *feel* like standing there patting a 3 m/o on the back for 45 mins trying to get them to sleep is not far from it. So I have a ton of guilt about this still...and it's b/c I am afraid of screwing her up.

[treeoflife3]

Originally Posted by GoBecGo 

It was ME who pointed out the crying children, not her and i did so to make sure DD understood that however "funny" her actions were to her they were very much hurting other people.  And you might think this was obvious but i've seen my DD yelling "it's a funny JOKE" at an obviously crying child she has upset, and expecting them to get over their emotional pain with the intellectual information that it was intended as a joke.

I don't see why she shouldn't be allowed to respectfully express dismay, upset and anger when a person she has only ever been good to wrecks a lot of her and her children's stuff in her home?  And how would i have handled that?  Would i have stopped her, while she was expressing her hurt, and said "don't talk to my child that way" and left?  And what would that have taught DD about her own place in the proceedings?  Sometimes you hurt people, and the way they react is hurtful to YOU, and that absolves you of the original hurt you caused?  Another valid lesson?  No?  I have enough trouble parenting my kids, i can't be parenting my friends as well!

to the bolded, i've seen ADULTS behaving that way.. expecting people to get over something because 'well it was just a joke!' and just insisting others are too sensitive.

I think a lot of things shouldn't be done with an audience for the kids sake, but I do absolutely think there are occasions where it should.  It doesn't always click with people if you tell them 'they are hurt' if they can't SEE the hurt.  'you meant it as a joke, but look... no one is laughing and people are crying' has a lot more power when you can SEE the crying and really feel the lack of laughter.  I don't see it as rubbing anything in at all.

I personally do that with my two year old.  'look, they are sad because xyz, what can you do to make it better?'  It works so much better than just pulling her into another room and talking about how people are hurt... she needs to really experience that hurt to believe it.  And once she does, she gets it and is more than happy to make it better and feels proud when she can.  She clearly doesn't feel shamed... she wants to make things better but doesn't know how until she truly understands things need to actually be made better.

Some kids just won't believe people are hurt and misunderstood the joke if they can't see the hurt.  They just won't.. and then they grow into adults who just expect everyone to stop being 'oversensitive' when things get misunderstood and can potentially have a lot of social problems because of it.

You weren't calling your kid bad... you were making sure she was clear about the effects of her actions.  She had to face them rather than just brush them away.  Some kids need that.