Does GD Breed Wild Children? - Page 3

[kcparker]

Playful Parenting is Larry Cohen, not to be confused with Alfie Kohn, who wrote Unconditional Parenting.

Thanks for correcting that - my brain is apparently even more mushed than I realized. Kohn almost = Cohen, and yeah, it's Playful Parenting that I was thinking of.

[1love4ever]

I have not had much experience with GD and would like to learn more.  I would like to share my own experience though.  From the time I was extremely young, I was spanked for every little thing that my mother thought I did wrong.  The older I got, the harder and longer she would spank me for.  I would have bruises and red marks on my butt (she pulled down my pants and beat me with a large plastic spoon).  I did not respect her at all, and as I got older I got more and more violent and had problems controlling my anger.  If I got mad at someone, I would want to hit them right away, just like she did to me.  When I was of about equal strength as she was, about age 11, and she would try to hit me, I would hit her back.  She eventually stopped hitting me because I was strong enough to take away her "weapon", and started sending me to my room for hours on end and if I came out she would threaten everything under the sun including locking me up and starving me.

From the time all this started I would fly into rages when I got mad.  I was definitly wild because  I was taught by example that violence and yelling was the correct response to the feeling of anger or frustration, and since I was angry a lot of the time because of how I felt inside, I would always yell at people and would go and hit things and break things just to try to let out some of my anger but it never really worked, I was so angry inside.  I also hated my parents for treating me this way.  I was not open with them at all because I felt like they didnt love me because of how they treated me. I was also depressed a lot of the time, and thought about suicide a lot.  I remember telling my parents I was going to call child services and they told me that I would go to a orphanage and be starved and abused and be taken away from all my friends and family, so I never did.  Also note that I was raised out of town away from any sort of civilization, which I think also contributed to my depression because I had no friends or contact with other people.

Now that I am a mother of a 15 month old, I am ashamed to say this, but every time I get frustrated with her for doing something wrong, I have the urge to hit her.  I do not hit her.  But it comes into my mind every time she does something "bad".  I truely believe this is because of how I was raised.  So not only did my mothers behavior towards me have a negative effect on me as a child, but it has carried over to myself as an adult.  I pray every day for self control and for these thoughts and urges not to come to my mind.  I know how demeaning it can be to be treated this way as a child so I would never do this to my own children.

[msmiranda]

Originally Posted by 1love4ever 

I have not had much experience with GD and would like to learn more.  I would like to share my own experience though.  From the time I was extremely young, I was spanked for every little thing that my mother thought I did wrong.  The older I got, the harder and longer she would spank me for.  I would have bruises and red marks on my butt (she pulled down my pants and beat me with a large plastic spoon).  I did not respect her at all, and as I got older I got more and more violent and had problems controlling my anger.  If I got mad at someone, I would want to hit them right away, just like she did to me.  When I was of about equal strength as she was, about age 11, and she would try to hit me, I would hit her back.  She eventually stopped hitting me because I was strong enough to take away her "weapon", and started sending me to my room for hours on end and if I came out she would threaten everything under the sun including locking me up and starving me.

From the time all this started I would fly into rages when I got mad.  I was definitly wild because  I was taught by example that violence and yelling was the correct response to the feeling of anger or frustration, and since I was angry a lot of the time because of how I felt inside, I would always yell at people and would go and hit things and break things just to try to let out some of my anger but it never really worked, I was so angry inside.  I also hated my parents for treating me this way.  I was not open with them at all because I felt like they didnt love me because of how they treated me. I was also depressed a lot of the time, and thought about suicide a lot.  I remember telling my parents I was going to call child services and they told me that I would go to a orphanage and be starved and abused and be taken away from all my friends and family, so I never did.  Also note that I was raised out of town away from any sort of civilization, which I think also contributed to my depression because I had no friends or contact with other people.

Now that I am a mother of a 15 month old, I am ashamed to say this, but every time I get frustrated with her for doing something wrong, I have the urge to hit her.  I do not hit her.  But it comes into my mind every time she does something "bad".  I truely believe this is because of how I was raised.  So not only did my mothers behavior towards me have a negative effect on me as a child, but it has carried over to myself as an adult.  I pray every day for self control and for these thoughts and urges not to come to my mind.  I know how demeaning it can be to be treated this way as a child so I would never do this to my own children.

It is so hard to transcend the way you were raised.  My mother had elements of the kind of authoritarian nature you describe, and it is because of how she was raised ... although I think on some level she knew how bad it was and tempered it compared to her own upbringing.  It is so much easier to be authoritarian than to practice GD, because to some extent authoritarian parenting can "work" in the short term in the sense that the child might temper her behavior out of fear of being hit (I know this was the case for me), and because you don't have to compromise with your child, you're the boss and they have to do what you say. 

Given the abuse you suffered as a child, have you thought about seeing someone?  It's pretty easy to resist hitting a 15 month old -- it is much harder to resist hitting when they get older.  (Ask me how I know this).  Otherwise, I would just concentrate on being as prepared as possible to deal with those moments when your child is doing something you need to correct.  Have nonviolent consequences in mind and use them consistently, whether that is time out or something else, or different things depending on the situation (e.g. tantrum in a store = leaving the store, running away at the playground = go straight home).  That way you have an alternative when you are tempted to hit.  Good luck and hugs to you.
 

[1love4ever]

How sweet you are, thank you for understanding. Both of my parents were raised the way that I was raised, probably to a worse extent than they raised me. I think that definatly has something to do with it. I am determined to break the pattern. I will keep in mind what you said. I guess considering how I was raised, I would not care if GD did lead to wild children, I would much rather have my child be wild than to feel the humiliation, hopelessness and fear that comes with the style of parenting that I was raised with. And considering that authoritarian parenting leads to so much more, I would certainly say that GD is by far the best choice any parent can make (regarding discipline)

[luv my 2 sweeties]

I have not read all the responses, so someone may have made this distinction already, but I'll go ahead.

I think GD does not breed wild children -- the first few responses that I did read were mostly right on.  Where I think new parents may be a little naive is in thinking that GD will be easy or that they will "never" _____ (fill in the blank: use time out, yell, feel like spanking, over-react out of anger, etc.)  The reality of parenting is humbling, to say the least.  You will make mistakes and do things that you regret.  But that's a life lesson in and of itself!  You scoop up your L.O., apologize, and go on.  You get better with time, but you never get perfect.  And thank goodness for that -- who would want to have a perfect parent?  Talk about pressure, lol!

So if your friends are saying GD won't work, they are wrong.  If they are saying that it will be harder than you expect, they are right.  Still, you do best going into it with a positivity and optimism.  Parenting is a long-term project!  (You'll do great!)

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by 1love4ever 

I guess considering how I was raised, I would not care if GD did lead to wild children, I would much rather have my child be wild than to feel the humiliation, hopelessness and fear that comes with the style of parenting that I was raised with.

I was abused as a child, and feel the way you do. I treat my kids the way I do because it is, IMHO, the right way for me to treat them. Not because I'm trying to force them to be a certain way.

My kids are 13 and 14 now, and they have their moments (like all kids) but over all they are really super kids. Having only had GD didn't turn them into monsters, neither did it cause them to be perfect. They just are who they are. They are far more open and honest with me than many of their peers are with their parents, and I think that knowing that they are always SAFE is part of that.

Rather than humilation, hopelessness and fear, they have positive sense of self, they know they ALWAYS loved (even when they make a mistake), they dream about their futures, they know they are safe, and they know that their dad and I will always, always be there for them. It's a really great foundation for the teen years.

I have spent lots of time in therapy, and I've different issues from my childhood come up at different stages of my kids development. I think that owning my own sh*t is part of the reason that I've been able to break the family pattern.

[mandomom]

Originally Posted by Mittsy 

That being said my kids are wild, but if I were to use non GD techniques it would be worse. Fortunately my 2 really spirited kiddo's respond very well to GD. And, we only use UP, time-in, and NVC here.

What are these techniques? (or where can I find out more about them.)  I'm finding that I need to figure out *how* to discipline my 3 year old daughter. Until now its been fairly easy, but she is really testing limits.  We don't want to have to have a household that is completely centered around her at all times in order to have harmony.  I think this is "spoiling" her. 
 

[mommahhh]

I think if it is done properly it is great.  To me, gentle discipline is about being respectful and kind and not punishing out of anger.  Yet still being firm and having guidelines and enforcing boundaries.  However, some people I know seem to confuse GD with no discipline.  I can tell you that does produce wild children.     I have a good friend who I can barely handle being around anymore because her child is so whinnnnnnnny.  It is stressful to even spend 2 hours with them.  She is nearly 4.  We can barely talk because she is extremely needy and whiny (i.e. even if we are going for a walk or at a playground, she yells if we try to talk).  I just want to clarify that she does not have any special needs, but she is what my mom would call "spoiled". lol

My stomach literally hurts after being in her company from the incessant whining.  She will ask the same question over and over, louder and louder if she does not like the answer.  She yells at us to BE QUIET if we try to talk to each other.  She kicks the back of my seat if we are in the car.  She argues with every single thing (ex: "no, the grass is NOT green!!"  ).  She destroys other people's property (she tries to draw on my child's stuffed animals with markers, breaks her pencils etc).  She likes us, by the way, so I can't imagine how she acts with people she doesn't like.  But the point of all this is that I think her mom is setting her up for failure.  She is never firm with her.  She never tells her to stop it, to be quiet, etc.  Everything is always:  "okayyyy honey".  So of course the child has no idea that she is doing anything wrong.  What exactly is this teaching her?  I think you can still be gentle while teaching your child the basics of socially acceptable behavior.  

This family really wants to go on vacation with us and I have to say no because my DH would absolutely lose his mind after one day of the whining and general "bratiness".

[sunnygir1]

Originally Posted by mommahhh 

I think if it is done properly it is great.  To me, gentle discipline is about being respectful and kind and not punishing out of anger.  Yet still being firm and having guidelines and enforcing boundaries.  However, some people I know seem to confuse GD with no discipline.  I can tell you that does produce wild children.     I have a good friend who I can barely handle being around anymore because her child is so whinnnnnnnny.  It is stressful to even spend 2 hours with them.  She is nearly 4.  We can barely talk because she is extremely needy and whiny (i.e. even if we are going for a walk or at a playground, she yells if we try to talk).  I just want to clarify that she does not have any special needs, but she is what my mom would call "spoiled". lol

My stomach literally hurts after being in her company from the incessant whining.  She will ask the same question over and over, louder and louder if she does not like the answer.  She yells at us to BE QUIET if we try to talk to each other.  She kicks the back of my seat if we are in the car.  She argues with every single thing (ex: "no, the grass is NOT green!!"  ).  She destroys other people's property (she tries to draw on my child's stuffed animals with markers, breaks her pencils etc).  She likes us, by the way, so I can't imagine how she acts with people she doesn't like.  But the point of all this is that I think her mom is setting her up for failure.  She is never firm with her.  She never tells her to stop it, to be quiet, etc.  Everything is always:  "okayyyy honey".  So of course the child has no idea that she is doing anything wrong.  What exactly is this teaching her?  I think you can still be gentle while teaching your child the basics of socially acceptable behavior.  

This family really wants to go on vacation with us and I have to say no because my DH would absolutely lose his mind after one day of the whining and general "bratiness".

I understand your point about boundaries, but I just have to say that some of us are really whiny even if our parents have good boundaries.  My mom raised 6 kids, and one of them (me) was ridiculously whiny.  Later, when her best friend had a horrible whiner, she used to say that me turning out okay gave her hope for her son!  ; )

I think I do a pretty good job with my kids, but I swear I cannot make a phone call without being interrupted by whining, crying, yelling, or insistent requests from one or both of them.  It does make it difficult to maintain relationships with my friends sometimes!  Ds is 20 months, so I'm not surprised he demands my attention when I'm on the phone, but dd is 4, and she still does it.  I find it very difficult to deal with in the moment (while I'm on the phone).  I wonder if my friends think my child is impossible to be around.

[csekywithlove]

Originally Posted by 1love4ever 

I have not had much experience with GD and would like to learn more.  I would like to share my own experience though.  From the time I was extremely young, I was spanked for every little thing that my mother thought I did wrong.  The older I got, the harder and longer she would spank me for.  I would have bruises and red marks on my butt (she pulled down my pants and beat me with a large plastic spoon).  I did not respect her at all, and as I got older I got more and more violent and had problems controlling my anger.  If I got mad at someone, I would want to hit them right away, just like she did to me.  When I was of about equal strength as she was, about age 11, and she would try to hit me, I would hit her back.  She eventually stopped hitting me because I was strong enough to take away her "weapon", and started sending me to my room for hours on end and if I came out she would threaten everything under the sun including locking me up and starving me.

From the time all this started I would fly into rages when I got mad.  I was definitly wild because  I was taught by example that violence and yelling was the correct response to the feeling of anger or frustration, and since I was angry a lot of the time because of how I felt inside, I would always yell at people and would go and hit things and break things just to try to let out some of my anger but it never really worked, I was so angry inside.  I also hated my parents for treating me this way.  I was not open with them at all because I felt like they didnt love me because of how they treated me. I was also depressed a lot of the time, and thought about suicide a lot.  I remember telling my parents I was going to call child services and they told me that I would go to a orphanage and be starved and abused and be taken away from all my friends and family, so I never did.  Also note that I was raised out of town away from any sort of civilization, which I think also contributed to my depression because I had no friends or contact with other people.

Now that I am a mother of a 15 month old, I am ashamed to say this, but every time I get frustrated with her for doing something wrong, I have the urge to hit her.  I do not hit her.  But it comes into my mind every time she does something "bad".  I truely believe this is because of how I was raised.  So not only did my mothers behavior towards me have a negative effect on me as a child, but it has carried over to myself as an adult.  I pray every day for self control and for these thoughts and urges not to come to my mind.  I know how demeaning it can be to be treated this way as a child so I would never do this to my own children.

My mother was abused as a child. Her and her five siblings were the product of incessant beatings. This was in the 1950s when you could get away with anything towards women and children. All my life I have heard how my mother would get jolted awake as the covers were pulled from her and a switch came down full force on her legs. Other aunts and uncles have also told me horror stories about my grandparents. Luckily my grandmother, not so much my grandfather, realized that what they had done to their children was wrong. I have a great relationship with my grandmother and my mother and her seem to have resolved most issues. 

My mom and dad did discipline us. But because of my mom's abuse, my dad was the one who did the spanking or had any physical contact with us when we were in trouble. My mom never hit me. She only spanked me one time. And really they are great parents. She breastfeed both my brother and me, we co slept for years, she was involved at school, held down a full time job, etc. But make no mistake she was emotionally unavailable at times. She had to separate herself from us at times. Not physically but emotionally to keep herself in check. 

You sound like you are aware and doing a great job with your daughter. I would definitely look into GD. Best of luck.

[1love4ever]

Thanks everyone for the information, I am starting to get a grasp on the concept of GD.  Like I said, I would never hit DD, but I really need other alternatives, otherwise I am the type who would do NO discipline, which I do not think works!  Does anyone feel that there is a connection between when a person was a child, being left to cry themselves to sleep every night and never co-sleeping, and hating to go to bed as an older child, teenager and even adult?  I feel that there is a connection because this is what my parents did to me (my mother has also given me this advice with my DD but I would never let her cry herself to sleep, especially as a newborn.  We have always co-slept.  I have learned to follow my own instincts instead of the advice of others), and as a teenager I would stay up as long as I could stand it, just reading, watching TV, cleaning, anything.  I do the same thing now, and I hate it, but I hate going to bed even more.   Going to bed for the night just has a bad and unappealing feeling to it.  I read something about this once but I dont remember what it was.  I guess  this is just another example of why parents really should listen to their hearts when it comes to their children.

[Arduinna]

I have a 21 year old and we GD. She is one of the nicest, most respectful people I know. I never even had to deal with the usual teen attitude, but I think some of that is because of homeschooling.

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by 1love4ever 

 Does anyone feel that there is a connection between when a person was a child, being left to cry themselves to sleep every night and never co-sleeping, and hating to go to bed as an older child, teenager and even adult? .... as a teenager I would stay up as long as I could stand it, just reading, watching TV, cleaning, anything.

My DDs are 13 and 14. They both BF with child led weaning (I tandum nursed), they co-slept until they were about 4 or 5, they've only known GD.

They would love to stay up all night watching comedy central or reading science fiction. They are both pretty darn normal! 

We had a slumber party here Saturday and some of the girls (including my 13 year old) were still up at 6:00 am -- they didn't even look tired!

They do tell me often that they love me and that I'm a wonderful mother. And they say that when they have kids, they want to parent pretty much the way I have.

I think that part of the lack of sleep thing for teens is that there are a lot of thing they enjoy and they have trouble turning it off. Sleep just isn't that interesting. They want to go, do, talk, experience.

[Mittsy]

Originally Posted by mandomom 

What are these techniques? (or where can I find out more about them.)  I'm finding that I need to figure out *how* to discipline my 3 year old daughter. Until now its been fairly easy, but she is really testing limits.  We don't want to have to have a household that is completely centered around her at all times in order to have harmony.  I think this is "spoiling" her. 
 

*Unconditional Parenting(UP) is not a technique, it's more a set of guidelines we try to keep in mind when disciplining.

*Time-in is directing the child to a spot of their choosing to cool down, with or without the parent, their choice, and they can use whatever means they please to help them cool down.

*Non Violent Communication(NVC) is a way of talking to people, it's especially useful in times os stress and upset. It's about noticing, and identifying people's feelings and needs, and working together for a outcome that everyone can live with. Here are 2 amazing books about it, the second one is a parenting/discipline book.

http://www.amazon.com/Nonviolent-Communication-Language-Marshall-Rosenberg/dp/1892005034/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1306163462&sr=8-1

http://www.amazon.com/Respectful-Parents-Kids-Conflict-Cooperation/dp/1892005220/ref=sr_1_15?ie=UTF8&qid=1306163462&sr=8-15

[Lisa1970]

Depends, some people say GD when what they really mean is no discipline. Unless the child is naturally disciplined, which is not common, and did not need parents, then that child will end up with a lot of problems. Other people just mean without being abusive...and then everything else in between. I try to be creative and I don't hit. A parent needs to recognize when there is a serious problem. They need to be stable and consistent and calm in dealing with things. Some parents cannot handle disciplining their children. Those are the children who will have troubles. The rest are fine.

[1love4ever]

Linda On the Move, I guess I meant more like a person who does not want to stay up but dreads the thought of going to bed even more,  even though there is no apparent reason for this dread.  As a teenager I was not allowed to watch much TV accept for a few movies that I had seen hundreds of times.  What I meant by staying up and watching TV was watching these same old movies that I really did not even want to watch, just so I didnt have to go to bed because I hated that even more....  It makes no sense to me either.  And as an adult I am still that way.  I am a little better when DH is around, but he travels for work a lot so I am alone with DD a lot.  And even though she is in my bed sleeping, waiting for me, I still can not stand the thought of going to bed so I stay up til my eyes water and I cant think or see straight, then I finally go to bed when I am only half functional.

[treeoflife3]

Originally Posted by 1love4ever 

Linda On the Move, I guess I meant more like a person who does not want to stay up but dreads the thought of going to bed even more,  even though there is no apparent reason for this dread.  As a teenager I was not allowed to watch much TV accept for a few movies that I had seen hundreds of times.  What I meant by staying up and watching TV was watching these same old movies that I really did not even want to watch, just so I didnt have to go to bed because I hated that even more....  It makes no sense to me either.  And as an adult I am still that way.  I am a little better when DH is around, but he travels for work a lot so I am alone with DD a lot.  And even though she is in my bed sleeping, waiting for me, I still can not stand the thought of going to bed so I stay up til my eyes water and I cant think or see straight, then I finally go to bed when I am only half functional.

I have the same issues as you with not wanting to go to bed despite being tired and wanting to sleep and not enjoying what I'm doing in place of going to bed.  I too have wondered if it is related to how my mom handled bedtime/nighttime with me as a baby and toddler.  I know my own two year old really enjoys going to bed and will ask to go when I'm running late on bedtime.  It could simply be a temperament thing but it would make for an interesting topic... how does CIO as a baby and toddler affect someone's enjoyment of bedtime and night time, especially when alone, as they grow older?

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by treeoflife3 

I have the same issues as you with not wanting to go to bed despite being tired and wanting to sleep and not enjoying what I'm doing in place of going to bed.  I too have wondered if it is related to how my mom handled bedtime/nighttime with me as a baby and toddler. 

I've been mulling this over since yesterday and I can really see what you guys mean, and I used to be the same way.

I've really gotten over it, and it wasn't even trying to get over it!  I have a consistent yoga and meditation practice, and the combination helped me find the quiet place inside myself, which solved my going to bed/falling asleep/staying asleep problems.

I think that it's possible to grow past this, or relax past this, if you want to and are willing to give it time. Practicing being quiet with myself on my yoga mat ended up being practice for being quiet with my self at nighttime.

I think that allowing ourselves space to heal from what we never got as babies/children can help us lead more functional and happier lives as adults.

[robinia]

Originally Posted by 1love4ever 

I guess considering how I was raised, I would not care if GD did lead to wild children, I would much rather have my child be wild than to feel the humiliation, hopelessness and fear that comes with the style of parenting that I was raised with.

I agree with this and what Lindaonthemove said.  When DS was born I was determined not to smack and resigned to the fact that this meant I would have a wild, crazy child who would run on the road.  I literally didn't know that there was any other way to discipline.  I was, in fact, thrilled when Supernanny first came out because of this wonderful thing called time out that meant I could have a reasonably behaved child without smacking.  (I still think that time out is a very useful resource for parents who were raised with violence, so that they have something else to do when their own programming is telling them to hit.)  While googling around for more information on this amazing innovation, I found a result that talked about problems with (punitive) time out.  I thought it must be a typo, clicked through and found mdc, where the wise mothers were saying that they used GD, not to get well behaved kids, but because it was right. 

I still would rather have my kids be badly behaved than feel like I did at their ages.  Interestingly DS is generally very well behaved, and DD is considered a model child at daycare, but they are both very intense and dramatic (each in their own way) in a way that is quite foreign to H and me - both of us very calm, restrained and quiet most of the time.  I have wondered where they get it from, but I wonder now whether we would both also have been more like our kids if we hadn't been smacked for being too loud, talking back, contradicting, whining etc.

On the sleep issue, I have such vivid memories of lying awake for hours in the dark, scared of the monsters.  I can't help but agree that better night-time parenting might lead to adults who don't stay up too late to avoid bed, or even routinely send themselves to bed too early, then lie awake feeling stressed.

[coffeegirl]

Originally Posted by philomom 

Yes, I think it does. When you know there very little consequence for your actions.. you tend to get away with what you can.

One of my friend's kids was being GD'ed and he could throw a tantrum and get his way for the most crazy things. My friend would claim she was just "listening to him or respecting him as a person" but it entailed her going to the supermarket at 5:45 p.m. because he wanted a certain dinner menu that night.

If my kids had thrown the same tantrum, I would have sent them to their room to calm down and then shown them the appropriate other dinner choices like a peanut butter sandwich or a bowl of cereal. Not even my hubby can alter the dinner menu that late in the day.

I tend to agree with this. BUT with the caveat that there are so many different parenting techniques that fall under the umbrella of "Gentle Discipline", so I can't believe that ALL of them, for ALL families, will result in spoiled kids. But it can. I've seen it. As far as GD meaning different things to different people....well, for example, for some parents GD = no spanking, and I know that that works for many, many families. I've also seen kids who are spanked and who are, still, spoiled and "wild"....so go figure.

I think that "getting it right" has something to do with winning respect from your children. If they respect you, then they will WANT to obey you. They will want to behave appropriately and not cause chaos and unhappiness in the family unit because they know that that's what you expect from them and they don't want to disappoint you. I think it's profoundly insulting and probably damaging to lower our expectations of our children to the point where, literally, just about "anything goes". In other words...if your children truly respect you, your authority will be a given, it will just be what IS....so you won't have to constantly be running around threatening and punishing and bullying your kids in order to get them to behave.
 

And alternately, your kids won't walk all over you and habitually attempt to manipulate you because a.) they know it won't work, and b.) knowing that you'll see through them, they won't want to disappoint you. I believe that a child is more likely to naturally respect his parents if he knows that he can't manipulate them. And that knowledge also, IMO, will breed a certain amount of security in the child as well. He knows that mama can't be swayed by hysterics and nonsense....ie: he knows that mama is strong and understands him and can/will protect him from everything-- even, when necessary, from his own strong emotions and spiraling mis-behavior. Which is what I believe a lot of tantrum-ing children do feel. (A lot, but obviously not not all of them....kids are different and there's no way I know the motivations of every child out there). I believe a lot of the time they feel out of control and they want their parents to bring them back down to earth, so to speak. They want - they need - to lean on the strength and steadiness and unconditional love of their parents.

Edited by coffeegirl - 5/25/11 at 1:34pm